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Illegal immigrants (+children) at our southern borders.

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As I have watched the news I have wondered who could possibly think that there is any good in this?  As I have pondered this and sought guidance from the spirit I was led to the following scripture  -- 2Nephi 1:

Quote

6 Wherefore, I, Lehi, prophesy according to the workings of the Spirit which is in me, that there shall none come into this land save they shall be brought by the hand of the Lord.

7 Wherefore, this land is consecrated unto him whom he shall bring. And if it so be that they shall serve him according to the commandments which he hath given, it shall be a land of liberty unto them; wherefore, they shall never be brought down into captivity; if so, it shall be because of iniquity; for if iniquity shall abound cursed shall be the land for their sakes, but unto the righteous it shall be blessed forever.

…..

9 Wherefore, I, Lehi, have obtained a promise, that inasmuch as those whom the Lord God shall bring out of the land of Jerusalem shall keep his commandments, they shall prosper upon the face of this land; and they shall be kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land unto themselves. And if it so be that they shall keep his commandments they shall be blessed upon the face of this land, and there shall be none to molest them, nor to take away the land of their inheritance; and they shall dwell safely forever.

10 But behold, when the time cometh that they shall dwindle in unbelief, after they have received so great blessings from the hand of the Lord—having a knowledge of the creation of the earth, and all men, knowing the great and marvelous works of the Lord from the creation of the world; having power given them to do all things by faith; having all the commandments from the beginning, and having been brought by his infinite goodness into this precious land of promise—behold, I say, if the day shall come that they will reject the Holy One of Israel, the true Messiah, their Redeemer and their God, behold, the judgments of him that is just shall rest upon them.

 

The Traveler

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A couple of observations:
1. Interesting to read the "if" statements in those verses. "And if..." "for if..."  Where are we on the scale of righteousness in the land? I don't know.
2. Are drug smugglers, sex traffickers and terrorist brought to the land by the hand of Lord? Do they serve a purpose OR are they result of unrighteousness in the land?
3. Is America really a haven for asylum seekers OR rather a place for where people come for economic migration under false flag of asylum?

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51 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

3. Is America really a haven for asylum seekers OR rather a place for where people come for economic migration under false flag of asylum?

Economic migration is arguably a form of asylum seeking.

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17 minutes ago, Vort said:

Economic migration is arguably a form of asylum seeking.

I'll take that bait.
I'm all ears 😉

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Unless you endorse a “heartland” model of the Book of Mormon, it’s difficult to equate “this land” in the BOM with “the 2021 territorial boundaries of the political construct known as the United States of America”.

3 Nephi 20-21 makes it clear that in the last days the descendants of the Lamanites will make life very unpleasant for the impenitent descendants of the Gentiles who migrated to the Western Hemisphere.  I would agree that modern US border troubles and general ethnic tensions between Latino and non-Latino Americans are probably a part of that general phenomena.  I’m not sure it’s accurate to suggest that they are one and the same thing, that the 2021 immigrants’ motives are fundamentally good or bad, or that God is irrevocably on the side of the immigrants (or “invaders”, if you will).

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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All I can say is...it's extremely concerning and I'm not sure if there is a real solution for this issue. Even though my views tend to be quite progressive in certain aspects, I see things differently with regards to immigration. Some of those concerns:

1. I don't believe in rewarding illegal immigrants with a path to citizenship. I'm not against immigration at all but I find it disheartening to know that there are thousands of people out there waiting to migrate legally (some who have been waiting for 15+ years!).  Just the thought that they're going to be forgotten by the system because someone jumped the line, makes me a bit upset. Having said that, it is NOT the children's fault. What can be done? :(

2. The immigration system is a MESS. It shouldn't be an open door policy neither shut the door and throw away the key  policy. Unfortunately, it will remain as it is.

3. My heart is filled with compassion towards ANYONE who is need and I think we all have a responsibility to help but not sure what is the best approach in situations such as this.

Edited by Suzie

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5 hours ago, Vort said:

Economic migration is arguably a form of asylum seeking.

 

5 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

I'll take that bait.
I'm all ears 😉

Most of the foreign converts to the church from Europe during the great pioneer migration to Utah were incentivized by famine and economic depression.    The suffering in Europe and even in the USA from economic depressions and war (Civil War) suffered greater difficulties than those that converted and crossed the plains.  Having visited my ancestral home land a couple of years ago - my relatives that came to America are much better off that those that remained in Denmark. 

 

The Traveler

 

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1 hour ago, Suzie said:

All I can say is...it's extremely concerning and I'm not sure if there is a real solution for this issue. Even though my views tend to be quite progressive in certain aspects, I see things differently with regards to immigration. Some of those concerns:

.......

3. My heart is filled with compassion towards ANYONE who is need and I think we all have a responsibility to help but not sure what is the best approach in situations such as this.

I have a friend in Mexico that shared an article from his area that indicated that 80% of Mexicans plan to come to the USA within their life time - either to work or retire.  This included all economic categories from poor to the very wealthy as well and unskilled labors to the most educated.   It seems logical to me that this is reflected in other countries south of our border as well or more so.  I am sure that such a human drain would be more harmful to our neighbors than to us (as much as it is to our economy and culture).

However, what concerns my friend the most is how much of the problems at the border are worse for Mexico than the USA.  Not only are the drug cartels (organized crime) financed with a free flow of $$$$$ going south but also weapons - including military grade weapons.  Besides the nonsense of "Fast and Furious" military grade weapons pour across the borders into Mexico from the USA.  The cartels are better armed and financed than the Mexican military.  Plus the international cartels have taken control of the Mexican government.  It is obvious to me that such international cartels have every desire to influence the politics in the USA as well.  

I have speculated that politicians under the international cartel's control will work towards:

1. Open borders

2. Abolishing ICE

3. Defunding the Police

4. Limiting 2nd Amendment rights as much as possible for law abiding citizens.

5. Make chain of custody impossible to validate in elections (ballot harvesting and no voter verification).

 

But I also wonder -- as much as cartels may wish to smuggle undesirables into the USA through the masses seeking to enter illegally - that many more desirables than undesirables may be in the mix.  But I am concerned that before the desirables are separated from the undesirables that there will be a lot of violence that will pass upon the innocent and undeserving - both here in the USA and abroad. 

 

The Traveler

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4 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

I'll take that bait.
I'm all ears 😉

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe freely."

This is not Founding Fathers material, but I think it's a true principle. If people come here for economic reasons, as long as they're not criminals or otherwise disruptive of society, I think America is a place for them. Heaven knows we modern Americans could use an infusion of foreign blood that wasn't afraid to work hard and improve themselves, as I see the large majority of Mexicans and other foreign Hispanics doing.

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@Traveler & @Vort
I should have/could have elaborated on my one sentence comment earlier.

I have no doubt people come here for economic migration, and that is a perfectly fine reason, I get it. Just be truthful about it.
What I've seen, however, are people falsely flying the asylum flag, and gullible Americans accepting the "I'm in physical danger or fleeing a war, etc." excuse when in reality they are under no such oppression. 
If you are coming here to have a better financial life, cool. However, claiming asylum and tugging on the heart strings of Americans to get past red tape, and skip over others who have been patiently waiting is not cool. 

People from Honduras, for example, could also choose to head to South America instead. 

Be truthful. Don't let your first interaction with America be based on a lie. 

I had two Syrian refugees that worked for me several years. Both had received asylum,  I'm cool with that. 
I also have many undocumented individuals looking for work, wanting cash only, etc. I'm not cool with that. 

Hope that sheds a little light on my thoughts. 👍

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1 hour ago, Vort said:

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe freely."

This is not Founding Fathers material, but I think it's a true principle. If people come here for economic reasons, as long as they're not criminals or otherwise disruptive of society, I think America is a place for them. Heaven knows we modern Americans could use an infusion of foreign blood that wasn't afraid to work hard and improve themselves, as I see the large majority of Mexicans and other foreign Hispanics doing.

The bolded portion, of course, is the key phrase; along with having values like self-sufficiency and free speech and rule of law and some measure of gender equality.

It’s fine to come to America to make your fortune.  But it’s a problem to come to America and expect someone else to make your fortune—or to give no thought about “fortune” at all beyond the fact that “la ayuda” is better to the north of the Rio Grande than it is to the south of it—or to get here and become a willing pawn of demagogues and race-baiters and crypto-Stalinists.

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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18 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

The bolded portion, of course, is the key phrase; along with having values like self-sufficiency and free speech and rule of law and some measure of gender equality.

It’s fine to come to America to make your fortune.  But it’s a problem to come to America and expect someone else to make your fortune—or to give no thought about “fortune” at all beyond the fact that “la ayuda” is better to the north of the Rio Grande than it is to the south of it—or to get here and become a willing pawn of demagogues and race-baiters and crypto-Stalinists.

I think this can be summed up as the difference between two words: Hope vs Greed.

America was the land of hope.  As such, it attracted those who were in search of hope.  They knew they had power in their minds, hands, and hearts.  But without the freedom to exercise that power, they never had hope.  If they could just get to America, they could unleash that power and use it to their best advantage by contributing to society with all that power and enjoy the fruits of their labor with peace.

America was also the land of greed.  Along with hopefuls, came the greedy. 

Quote

Greed: 

Desiring to take the fruit of others' labor and make it your own.

It seems to me that no one is moving to discern the difference between these two types of immigrants.  They all seem to be bunched into one group or the other.  I'd really be interested to see the actual statistics.

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On 3/27/2021 at 1:55 PM, Carborendum said:

I think this can be summed up as the difference between two words: Hope vs Greed.

America was the land of hope.  As such, it attracted those who were in search of hope.  They knew they had power in their minds, hands, and hearts.  But without the freedom to exercise that power, they never had hope.  If they could just get to America, they could unleash that power and use it to their best advantage by contributing to society with all that power and enjoy the fruits of their labor with peace.

America was also the land of greed.  Along with hopefuls, came the greedy. 

It seems to me that no one is moving to discern the difference between these two types of immigrants.  They all seem to be bunched into one group or the other.  I'd really be interested to see the actual statistics.

Just a note and some opinion - I have an ancestor (George Darling) that was brought to the Americas as a "white" slave in the 1600's.  He was brought here against his will and desires and he was not the only one forced.  I am sure some of his descendants participated in the greed of which you speak.  Likewise I am sure some of his descendants have been model free citizens.

It is my impression that few of the upcoming generation of citizens in this country are willing to serve their country - especially in the military.  In my generation - most were willing to fulfill an obligation thought there were some that refused.  It is rare that someone uninterested in a military career is willing or feels any obligation to serve their country in the military.  In previous posts on other threads - I have expressed the notion that I believe before someone has the privilege to vote as a "full" citizen they ought to have fulfilled a military obligation.  I believe the same should hold for those (mentally and physically able) to receive government subsidies ought to fulfill a military obligation.  In the words of President Kennedy, "Ask now what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country."

When I was in the army there were many immigrants that volunteered  for the military in order to become citizens.  I believe that more illegal immigrants are willing to spend time in or military to preserve their citizenship that the citizens of upcoming generations.   If citizenship has no obligation there will be no value for it and without obligation citizens are not free.  Maybe some of the illegal immigrants are more worthy of citizenship that those born to it.

 

The Traveler

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3 hours ago, Suzie said:

As a mom....my heart is breaking for this boy...

Well, make sure it's breaking for the right reasons.

Kid says "I was coming with a group".  There are 3 main possibilities for a kid to be coming across with people not his parents:
- Parent(s) had paid a coyote to get him across the border, in hopes of a better life in America.
- Kid had been kidnapped from his parents, and was being smuggled across the border to be sold into slavery or the sex trade. 
- Kid had been sold by his parent(s), to people smuggling him across the border into slavery or sex.

Depending on nation of origin, any of those 3 are about equal possibilities. 

:(

Edited by NeuroTypical

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I agree, @Suzie. It is a terrible tragedy that is being allowed to happen. 
 

However, the solution isn’t complicated. 
 

At least not to me. 
 

1. The path to legal immigration needs to be fixed. This is number one. It needs a major overhaul in its requirements. The requirements should include an appointed oversight committee, appointed by elected officials, that reviews the cases, with random sampling to determine what is working and where the slowdowns/corruptions are occurring. This, unfortunately, has become a bureaucratic mess on purpose. Many have used this “mess” as a way to line their pockets by prioritizing those who have money for bribes. 
 

2. The Nephites protected their borders and I believe this just makes good sense. Part of the reason there are massive groups of people arriving there after wading through the desert, paying coyotes to smuggle them in, or literally climbing the walls is because it is available. Our borders are not secure and so people take their children there in hopes of giving them a better chance at life. This is, quite frankly, an awful carrot on a stick. Take away the option and this will stop. This has the added bonus of helping to keep traffickers of various “goods” being filtered through a more manageable border system. 
 

3. If we fix number one and two, then the third option needs to include paths to citizenship. Military and/or government service seem like fairly obvious paths in addition to expanding the education of various trades at the same time. This could even potentially be done on state levels where the states themselves create paths to citizenship. 
 

Perhaps I am over-simplifying things. Maybe I’m just flat out wrong. But from what I can see, we don’t seem to have any other options and what we are doing isn’t working. 

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35 minutes ago, Colirio said:

I agree, @Suzie. It is a terrible tragedy that is being allowed to happen. 
 

However, the solution isn’t complicated. 
 

At least not to me. 
 

1. The path to legal immigration needs to be fixed. This is number one. It needs a major overhaul in its requirements. The requirements should include an appointed oversight committee, appointed by elected officials, that reviews the cases, with random sampling to determine what is working and where the slowdowns/corruptions are occurring. This, unfortunately, has become a bureaucratic mess on purpose. Many have used this “mess” as a way to line their pockets by prioritizing those who have money for bribes. 
 

2. The Nephites protected their borders and I believe this just makes good sense. Part of the reason there are massive groups of people arriving there after wading through the desert, paying coyotes to smuggle them in, or literally climbing the walls is because it is available. Our borders are not secure and so people take their children there in hopes of giving them a better chance at life. This is, quite frankly, an awful carrot on a stick. Take away the option and this will stop. This has the added bonus of helping to keep traffickers of various “goods” being filtered through a more manageable border system. 
 

3. If we fix number one and two, then the third option needs to include paths to citizenship. Military and/or government service seem like fairly obvious paths in addition to expanding the education of various trades at the same time. This could even potentially be done on state levels where the states themselves create paths to citizenship. 
 

Perhaps I am over-simplifying things. Maybe I’m just flat out wrong. But from what I can see, we don’t seem to have any other options and what we are doing isn’t working. 

It has been my experience that in most cases where it is suggested that immigration laws need some kind of fixing - have no idea or clue of any specifics of exactly what law needs changing or updates.  Could you be specific concerning your #1 solution and inform us what law or law needs fixing and to what?

 

The Traveler

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3 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Well, make sure it's breaking for the right reasons.

Kid says "I was coming with a group".  There are 3 main possibilities for a kid to be coming across with people not his parents:
- Parent(s) had paid a coyote to get him across the border, in hopes of a better life in America.
- Kid had been kidnapped from his parents, and was being smuggled across the border to be sold into slavery or the sex trade. 
- Kid had been sold by his parent(s), to people smuggling him across the border into slavery or sex.

Depending on nation of origin, any of those 3 are about equal possibilities. 

:(

And this is why I said my heart breaks for this boy and all the children who are in similar circumstances...I just cannot process it.. there is so much pain and uncertainty. These children should be enjoying their childhood, not worried about being kidnapped and assaulted!!

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19 hours ago, Colirio said:

1. The path to legal immigration needs to be fixed. 

2. The Nephites protected their borders and I believe this just makes good sense. Part of the reason there are massive groups of people arriving there after wading through the desert, paying coyotes to smuggle them in, or literally climbing the walls is because it is available. Our borders are not secure and so people take their children there in hopes of giving them a better chance at life.

3. If we fix number one and two, then the third option needs to include paths to citizenship.

I agree with all of these.  But that's not the full solution.  None of these address the problem of smuggling in people/children to be sold as slaves or sex workers.  Your #2 needs a bit of expanding to take those evils, and other nefarious reasons why people try to cross, into account.  

It's a much more complicated problem.  

But yes, your three points are absolutely valid and important.

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15 hours ago, Suzie said:

And this is why I said my heart breaks for this boy and all the children who are in similar circumstances...I just cannot process it.. there is so much pain and uncertainty. These children should be enjoying their childhood, not worried about being kidnapped and assaulted!!

Or whatever profits the human traffickers can extract or extort from them and their families.

 

The Traveler

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30 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I agree with all of these.  But that's not the full solution.  None of these address the problem of smuggling in people/children to be sold as slaves or sex workers.  Your #2 needs a bit of expanding to take those evils, and other nefarious reasons why people try to cross, into account.  

It's a much more complicated problem.  

But yes, your three points are absolutely valid and important.

You are correct - it is much more complicated.  It is somewhat published concerning the problems at the borders from the point of view of our country's politics.  The problem is much worse from the other side of the border.  For example we learned from "Fast and Furious" that arm smuggling is a major manor that internarial cartels obtain black market military grade weapons.  And in addition to arms the border provides one of the world's most profitable black markets for things from pharmaceuticals to stolen cars, trucks and heavy construction equipment - even human slaves for international markets (there is a market for very young blond blue eyed girls).   Interestingly Mexico contains the world's largest reserves of natural petroleum - a good share of Mexico's raw petroleum ends up on the black market and was a source of petroleum prior to our nation becoming petroleum independent.  The point being that very powerful and wealthy corrupt international cartels have significant interest in a open border condition. 

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler

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I see the alien invasion that is a huge disregard for immigration law as a symptom of the great rot within this nation.  This along with the out of control money spending and the many wicked secret combinations that infest the Federal government in the United States.

A nation without borders will cease to be a nation in the future.

In my belief part of America will be preserved in the future but not this whole nation.  Too many in the United States have rejected God and turn to wicked pleasure or other idols as their gods.

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