Long fasting: My first three experiences


Vort
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On 4/10/2021 at 5:32 PM, Backroads said:

A question regarding fasting in difficult circumstances...

When I get really upset, I tend to shut down in some areas. I'm neither hungry nor thirsty, I have to force myself through daily task, etc.

Regarding the first example, I make myself eat and drink a bit, figuring some nourishment might do me good.

But this thread has me wondering if I should just go with it. Seek heavenly comfort, turn it into a fast.

My opinion? Eat when you're hungry. When you're not hungry, don't eat.

I could imagine situations where forcing yourself to eat might be the wise course of action. But in the situation you describe above, I'm of the opinion that if you feel like not eating, don't eat, and use the situation to implore God for his comfort. Experiment with it a bit and see how things go. If you decide fasting in such circumstances is helpful, great! If not, then no harm done.

FWIW. Good luck in any case.

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I've been experimenting with various rates of food consumption -- to see if lack of food is causing the problem.  For the most part, it seems that I have decreased the frequency and duration of episodes during this time of moderate eating.

So, today I ate quite a bit.  I might say I overate.  And I'm also having some breathing problems.  But it is much more brief.  I can catch my breath.  It isn't like it was when fasting.  

When I was fasting, I could inhale deeply, but still felt like I was not filling my lungs.  I even got light headed because I got so much oxygen.  But I still felt like I needed to breathe more deeply.  And I'd almost get into panic mode before it would subside.

Strange.

I've also hypothesized that it isn't "eating" in general that is the issue.  It may be that I'm missing an important nutrient during my fasting.  And overeating doesn't necessarily guarantee that I'm going to get that nutrient.

Still gotta isolate what is causing this.

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11 hours ago, Vort said:

But I think it goes beyond this, as well. My own idea—and this is not canonical LDS doctrine, so please don't take it as such—is that intentional fasting and prayer somehow opens to us spiritual sensitivity and insights that we do not normally perceive. The scriptures are replete with stories of men gaining great spiritual gifts and magnifying the spiritual gifts they already possess through fasting. Somehow, the power of God is made manifest in such people, and their fasting is an integral part of that process.

There are two different ways you can view this. If I remember the story rightly, the witnesses to the golden plates initially saw nothing. It was only after they fasted that their "spiritual eyes" began to open so they could see what Joseph Smith was describing. And they must have seen them, because even those who later left the Church never denied that they had had this experience.

However, critics turn this the other way: food deprivation (so they say) affects the senses and causes hallucinations. This - together with repeated suggestions from Joseph Smith that they were "looking at golden plates" - made them see golden plates.

I'm not going to comment further on this specific example. (I've probably raised enough hackles as it is.) But generally speaking, I'm a bit suspicious of anything a person claims to have perceived while their senses were not in their usual state. One guy (who I have every reason to trust) told me that he'd once seen pink elephants while he was blind drunk. But neither I nor he believes that such creatures exist.

Not that I'm equating fasting with being blind drunk - but I think you get the point: both are physical, and both affect the senses:

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“Why do you doubt your senses?”

“Because,” said Scrooge, “a little thing affects them. A slight disorder of the stomach makes them cheats. You may be an undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of an underdone potato. There’s more of gravy than of grave about you, whatever you are!”

But then again, Scrooge was wrong about that...

Edited by Jamie123
grammar
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Vort, thank you for a most interesting thread, and for sharing your insights. Like most LDS people my experiences with fasting have varied over time. It seemed hard as a child, but I always felt a strong Spirit on Fast Sunday and enjoyed hearing people bear their testimonies and collecting Fast Offerings. As a teenager it didn't feel like it was that hard to fast, but sometimes I would get some wicked headaches. After I graduated high school there was a church musical called "It's A Miracle" that was performing at the Seattle Center and I invited a non-member friend to attend. I really wanted this person to feel the Spirit so I decided to fast for 2 days, no food or water. It was August and hot, so I found myself very thirsty but the hunger pains did seem to go away overnight. I felt very positive about the experience and my friend did eventually enter the waters of baptism several months later before I left on my mission.

On my mission we were instructed not to go without water in the summertime due to the sweltering heat. That helped my occasional headaches a bit, and I realized that one can still have a spiritual reverence and attitude of fasting while maintaining health.

After my mission and into marriage I never saw fasting as difficult, except for the headaches from time-to-time. But my whole frame of mind on food and fasting changed when a friend of mine told me he was on a Keto diet. I told him it was stupid, then realized I really didn't know anything about it and so I experimented with it myself. The first time it was very hard to get into ketosis. I felt like I was dying even though I was eating non-carb foods. It was then that I had a "revelation" about my health. I was addicted to carbs. I didn't need to lose much weight, but what I found was that while I was in ketosis my mind was super clear - no fog in the morning or night. I needed less sleep and the headaches vanished.

Once I came to know how my body would react to having no carbs, I found some profound truth to all my Boy Scout survival training. You don't need food if you are lost. You need water and shelter. Your body will eventually start burning your fats and you will survive quite a long time. That knowledge changed me. I can now fast (I always drink water) for two to three days without much effort and it feels great. The longest I have intentionally taken no food has been 7 days, but I could have gone on much longer by taking a daily vitamin and drinking water.

In a way, knowing how my body reacts and knowing that I can do it without much effort, allows me to focus on my purposes more intently. I don't feel like I'm suffering when I fast, instead I feel like I'm focusing on something I know is more important. I applaud your efforts to explore this unique spiritual practice, and thank you again for sharing!

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Jaimie, I'm not criticizing you directly.  But I have to offer a rebuttal for others who are reading this thread.

4 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

There are two different ways you can view this. If I remember the story rightly, the witnesses to the golden plates initially saw nothing.

That was a twisted account of what actually happened.

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It was only after they fasted that their "spiritual eyes" began to open so they could see what Joseph Smith was describing.

I've never heard of this before.  Could you provide a reference?

I know that after the failed attempt at calling upon Heaven, Martin admitted that he was the reason the Lord was silent, and went away to "humble himself".  I don't know if that included fasting or not.  But probably so.

I've never heard any accounts about Oliver or David having fasted prior to the visitation.  Provide a source.

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However, critics turn this the other way: food deprivation (so they say) affects the senses and causes hallucinations.

Really? https://www.livestrong.com/article/546782-can-lack-of-food-make-you-hallucinate/

Not a credible claim.

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This - together with repeated suggestions from Joseph Smith that they were "looking at golden plates" - made them see golden plates.

I wouldn't find this believable if you said it about the followers of Jim Jones.  But we're talking about three people who were highly educated, level-headed men who were leaders in their communities prior to meeting with Joseph.  They all harbored doubts because they were wary of believing outlandish stories. They were not foolish children who could easily be tricked into anything.

And he simply "talked them into" believing they saw something that wasn't there?  That is not just persuasion and trickery.  That is a master hypnotist at work.

How many more abilities will they claim Joseph had and still be mortal.  With all the claims of his critics, he almost seems like a Superman or something.  Someone as good as The Mentalist only exists in fantasy land.  If someone really were that good, he would HAVE to have help from above.

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I'm not going to comment further on this specific example. (I've probably raised enough hackles as it is.)

Indeed.  Jamie, I know you've behaved very well on this site for as long as I've known you.  So, I'm not going to hold this against you personally.  But the claims made by these "critics" twist the truth and then proceed to outright lie.

I find it interesting that these men claim Joseph was a master trickster who deluded & deceived these men to believe what he said.  But then the very words of their (the critics) very own arguments are outright deceptions.  Do they believe that these witnesses were fools?  Or do they believe that their own audience is full of fools?

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But generally speaking, I'm a bit suspicious of anything a person claims to have perceived while their senses were not in their usual state.

Depends on what the "unusual" state actually was.  I know of someone who is morose and serious almost all the time.  He always makes bad judgments because he looks at things from the most pessimistic perspective.  But every once in a while he is in a cheery mood.  And he brings forth some pearls of wisdom -- what some may call a "zen gem."

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Not that I'm equating fasting with being blind drunk - but I think you get the point: both are physical, and both affect the senses:

Actually, that is exactly what you just did.  As the link I posted above indicates, fasting for a day or so does not cause hallucinations.  So, even if not "equating", you are at least drawing a parallel where there is none.  It was along the lines of saying "Lions are mammals, and you're a mammal, so I should be really wary being around you."

If anything, it tends to calm the "noise" of life and allow our minds to focus properly.

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But then again, Scrooge was wrong about that...

Yes, he was.  It isn't so simple as a blot of mustard that would cause something so serious as hallucinations.  Hallucinations are A BIG DEAL.  Your friend who saw pink elephants was not just "kinda drunk".  You have to be WAYYY over the deep end to get to that stage (as you say "blind drunk").  If he did that with only a few small drinks, then he has other health issues he may want to get checked out.

Edited by Carborendum
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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:
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It was only after they fasted that their "spiritual eyes" began to open so they could see what Joseph Smith was describing.

I've never heard of this before.  Could you provide a reference?

I'd had an idea it was in the preface to the Book of Mormon, but now I look I see that it isn't there. I'm sure I have read an account somewhere of Joseph Smith berating the witnesses for their "lack of faith" and telling them to fast and pray. I'm not sure where I got this from. When I've more time, I'll see if I can track it down.

Edited by Jamie123
I deleted the rest as it read too much like an anti-Mormon apologia. I'm not an anti-Mormon. Just a non-Mormon.
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16 hours ago, Vort said:

Lovely person. And now I'm all curious about the asterisks.

I think that perhaps this relates to something that I think Patrick Hennery said -- something along the lines of, "I regret that I have but one asterisk for my country"????

 

The Traveler

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1 hour ago, Jamie123 said:

I'd had an idea it was in the preface to the Book of Mormon, but now I look I see that it isn't there. I'm sure I have read an account somewhere of Joseph Smith berating the witnesses for their "lack of faith" and telling them to fast and pray. I'm not sure where I got this from. When I've more time, I'll see if I can track it down.

And yes the testimony of the witnesses to the plates certainly is a curious matter which isn't easily explained away. Although the hallucination theory is one explanation that does get used. Another book I read suggested a very different theory: that they were all initially conspirators in a deception, and after they broke apart they were still too embarrassed to admit that they had lied.

Also I've read that many people in the early 19th Century believed in what they called "second sight". Things which we nowadays put down as pure imagination, they would consider "messages from an aetheal (or whatever) world" and they were habitually much more open to suggestion than people generally are today. Even if fasting doesn't produce actual hallucinations per se, perhaps it could create states of consciousness that could contribute towards this. But I'm not an expert.

There was some talk about someone saying that Martin "only" saw the plates and the angel with his "spiritual eyes."  Then they went on to explain that "spiritual eyes" were basically an imagined vision.

This is a lie.

As far as I know, some people may have used such language (and we do as well, sometimes).  But it was by no means universal.

When Latter-day Saints refer to "spiritual eyes" we mean that the power of God would not allow a mortal to see divine things and live.  To be able to behold His glory, we need to undergo a transfiguration (like what happened to the apostles on the Mount of Transfiguration with the Savior).  When we are transfigured, our bodies are different -- strengthened -- to be able to withstand the glory of God.  But the experience is no less real.  If anything, it is MORE real.

A perfect example is Nephi's vision and the account of Moses in the Pearl of Great price.

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But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him.

 --  Moses 1: 11

This manner of language has been an LDS belief ever since the beginning.

Edited by Carborendum
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This is an interesting thread. I, personally, feel people should follow their own conscience (the Spirit and Light of Christ) pertaining to coming unto Christ. We know the Lord may inspire one of his children differently, as he deals with each of us on a personal level.

My experience with fasting has always been 24 hours, except for one time where I fasted and prayed for 48 hours. My experience is that I would never do it again (in light of prophetic counsel also). This is just for me though. At the end of 48 hours my whole lower body cramped with extreme pain. The moment the cramps set in I broke my fast, and grabbed a PP&J and milk. The experience didn't result in any uplift of Spirit (from my purview).

On my mission, I read one time where a leader of the Church counseled multiple 24 hours fasts, one or two times a week. I found that to be more beneficial (this is just for me). I think the key to any fast is what you said in your conclusion and retrospective here, "I need to be single-minded in my fasting, not worrying about trivia and nonsense."

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I know a little something about seeing with "spiritual eyes", not from myself but from an intimate acquaintance whom, on this topic, I consider an unimpeachable source. Such "spiritual sight" is imagined to be some dreamlike state, but it is the opposite. It's as if all your senses are working at top efficiency and your mind comprehends completely what you are seeing, hearing, and experiencing. It is not a uniformly positive experience; my acquaintance was terrified by some of the particulars.

I do not expect anyone to read such a vague description by some anonymous internet guy and say, "Oh, wow! I'd better change my life, because this guy's acquaintance had some experience or other that was never described to me but that sounds like it might have been amazing!" My point is not to persuade with stunning details; even if I felt good about sharing such intimate and sacred things openly, I doubt they would convince anyone who did not already believe. Rather, my point is to claim that the idea of seeing with "spiritual eyes" is widely misunderstood and misused. The experience is rather the opposite of what some would have you believe.

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I thought I would highlight a little principle I came to understand better because of my "fasting in the wilderness".  I told part of the story of the lost prison parolee.  It was late in April and I decided that we had to get through a high mountain pass (Henry Mountains).  We came upon a campground that was bounded by snow (no vehicles could get to the campground because the road was blocked by snow.  I am sure no one had been in the campground since the fall - which I assumed was used for deer hunting.  We discovered a wonderful cash of food left in the trash cans that obviously had been there frozen for months.  I built a fire to melt snow for drinking and to thaw the food.  I thought it odd that we were happy and thankful to eat the left behind garbage.   I wondered if by some divine providence the garbage was never picked up for the single purpose of providing us with food.

At another time I was in much need of water.  Without going into all the details, I thought if I did not find water soon that I would perish.  In my desperation I found a foul smelling muddy water pocket filled with bugs.  Drinking the water (that tasted horrible) I was sure I was consuming more bugs than water.  After my experiences and my return to civilization I was reading scripture and came to a sermon by Christ when he said, "Blessed are they that hunger and thirsts after righteousness for they shall be filled."  I remember when I was hungry and ate months old garbage and I was thirsty and drank foul tasting water.  I realized that when we are truly hungry and thirsty that we abandon all thought of being picky and we will not only eat what ever G-d has provided but that we will eat it with joy and be thankful for it. 

Not only was I filled but I had more to spare and leftover.  If we are truly hungry and thirsty for righteousness - Note that the ancient meaning of righteousness was to covenant with G-d - then we are not picky but will gladly accept what He provides.  But if we are not truly hungry and thirsty - we will turn down what G-d has provided thinking we can find better.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
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So I did try some fasting this week. It went generally very well. 

However, I did notice something of the motherly variety. I am currently nursing my baby, and according to the interweb, a fast from food for a day or two shouldn't have any significant impact on breastmilk, as long as I avoided dehydration. So, I continued to drink water. I did, however, go over a day (maybe 36 hours?) and it actually did seem to impact my milk supply. My baby is eating solids and stuff, so not a huge deal, but now I'm curious as to what's going on.

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2 minutes ago, Backroads said:

And a random question:

Why 24 hours? Not a criticism, just a qustion. Is that significant in and of itself? Just a handy measurement rule of thumb?

I don't know the original reasoning.  But there are some practical reasons why 24 hours is a reasonable time.

1) Since we fast both food AND WATER, it is not healthy to go beyond 24 hours without water.  Yes, we can survive.  But some health impacts occur after that time period.
2) It is a convenient timeframe that we can practically manage on a large scale.  The fact that we tend to do it on Sundays decreases the chances for scheduling interferences, etc.
3) There is a physiological & spiritual response around the 19 to 20 hour period that can be realized.  Long explanation.  But it is during the last few hours that some very interesting things tend to happen.

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A few thoughts:

Most people find fasting to be taxing and unpleasant. Not really surprising, that. If you're new to fasting, you might find you get a headache  about 16 hours into the fast. This is because your body is not used to going without food for more than a few hours at a time, one of the negatives of our food-always-on-hand society. If you fast faithfully even for just 24 hours and only once per month—that is, if you simply take to heart the Church's guidelines for fasting—you will find that such issues go away after a few months.

Once you have reached this threshold, there is no significant physical pain to fasting. Then why is fasting so unpleasant to those who don't fast very much? For most adults, there is no actual physical discomfort in fasting (once you've gotten past the above-mentioned newbie-to-fasting issues). The nagging insistence your body makes about wanting food is, at most, on the same level as that of a very mild stomach ache or the residual throbbing of a stubbed toe ten minutes later—that is to say, it's eminently ignorable. And yet, fasting is considered a sacrifice.

I believe the difficulty of fasting has very little to do with physical discomfort, and a great deal to do with psychological discomfort. Eating causes chemical changes to our body, changes that we're used to and have become programmed to expect. Why is "comfort food" even a thing? It's a psychological effect. Taking away food affects not only our bodies, but our minds, which respond to the bodily chemical changes by insisting that we're in distress and need to get something to eat RIGHT NOW.

In my opinion, this is one of the great benefits of fasting: To assert the dominance of the spirit over the counterproductive hungers of the carnal mind and body. I am in charge, not my body, and not my brain. Because I am much more than my body and my brain. I am a son of God, a literal spiritual offspring of the Father. It is my birthright and part of my purpose here in mortality to assert the primacy of my spirit over the physical elements of my body and brain.

Fasting under this mindset slowly changes a person. We gain a bit of distance from our physical condition, and can view ourselves in a more detached way. We can separate our carnal hungers and drives from our spiritual priorities, and if those hungers and drives don't take us toward our spiritual goals, we can choose to ignore them.

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I also want to re-emphasize that "pain" is often in the perception of the event. Fifteen or so years ago, I took care of my aging parents, who at the time were both convalescing after hospitalization. At one point, I gave my mother a foot massage, something I often did with my own wife and children. To my surprise, she didn't like it. She hated it. It hurt her. I scaled down my foot rub to the point that I felt like I was barely even touching her feet, but she still didn't find any enjoyment in the experience. I realized that she perceived the foot manipulations as painful, but if she got used to them, she would enjoy them.

This is actually very common with physical interactions, as with backscratching or hand-holding or kissing or other forms of intimate touch; those who are not used to such things, and especially those who are the primary receiver of such actions, at first will often perceive those actions as painful. Just about any new physical sensation is perceived as "other" and therefore painful by our brain.

The relation of this phenomenon to fasting is obvious. If we get past perceiving lack of food in our stomachs as painful hunger, much of the psychological difficulty of fasting vanishes.

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