Depression - What are we to do?


Fether
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I know a person in high school that is experiencing a lot of depression and social anxiety. She is always down on herself and only speaks ill of herself. She talks about how she has no friends, she is overweight, and no one likes her.

Also, perhaps unsurprisingly, she doesn't take care of herself physically, will do nearly anything for attention (even up to lying). She often inserts herself into conversations in inappropriate matters.

The things she complains about are all self-induced. Her depression would be eased greatly if she started taking care of herself, stopped demanding attention, and stopped lying. She confided with my wife a few months ago that she thinks she is Lesbian (which is likely just a byproduct of either wanting attention or wanting to blame her struggles on something else).

Naturally, I want to just grab her, shake her around, and demand she takes responsibility for these feelings. Realize God had a higher calling for you and she needs to realize her higher sense of duty. She needs To get over herself, get over her pride, stop demanding everyone's attention and love, and start taking care of herself physically... But being a high school girl... I don't know that that would go over well.

I have seen this with many people experiencing depression and anxiety. a few times I have done what I have said above and it hasn't done much. On one such occasion, I was just met with tears and further stress.

What is there to do? 

Is this just a byproduct of today's society, and if so, how do we fix it once it has hit someone? Is the best course of action to have a higher expectation of such people? Is the only thing to do is tell them we love them? I feel like that doesn't do anything, depression isn't cured by people loving you, it is cured by getting over it yourself.

Was depression such a big deal in generations prior to millennial?

I have only experienced depression and anxiety for a short period on my mission. But I quickly realized that it was all me and within 3 months I was fine.

This whole thing about depression frustrates me. Mostly because, like women's rights, I am not allowed to talk about it because I haven't experienced it... or something like that.

I don't believe therapy is the best fix, and I don't think a pill is the best fix either. It is a fact (or as many call it, "my personal opinion") that depression and anxiety is at least started by pride. They feel they need to be the best or that unless they say something worthwhile or impressive, they aren't worth hearing (which is just a reflection on how they see others).

Edited by Fether
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I love your compassion for her, that speaks very highly of you  

You ask “what are we to do” but then you mention that you don’t believe in therapy or medication. These are common remedies, and the church has no problem with them. 
 

Have you listened to Elder Hollands talk, “Like a Broken Vessel?” An AMAZING talk by an amazing man. Deals with mental illness issues. 
 

I’m praying for your friend, and for you. Mental illness is so, so hard. 

Edited by LDSGator
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1 hour ago, Fether said:

Was depression such a big deal in generations prior to millennial?

One of the Little House books by Laura Ingalls Wilder, written in the '30's about her childhood in the 1800's, gives a very descriptive account of depression.  Young Laura turns 14, and is shipped off to another town to teach school.  She lives with a couple, and the description of the wife just screams depression.  Poor Laura listens through a blanket, to them fight through the night, recounts all the things the wife says.   It's a two room cabin.  It ends with an intense fight where the wife grabs a knife and tries to kill herself, and the husband has to wrestle it away from her.   The next morning, everybody sits and has breakfast at the table like nothing ever happened.

No, it wasn't "such a big deal" - it was misunderstood, undiagnosed, and ignored.   People figured out how to resolve it, live with it, or succumb to it in ways that brought shame to the whole family.  

Good reading: Myths about Mental Illness By Elder Alexander B. Morrison Of the Seventy

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16 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

No, it wasn't "such a big deal" - it was misunderstood, undiagnosed, and ignored.   

It still is. If we could view many of our human faults through the lens of empathy and understanding that mental illness requires, we would find our life ministering efforts more effective and our character more godly and charitable.

Edited by clwnuke
grammar?
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10 hours ago, clwnuke said:
10 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

No, it wasn't "such a big deal" - it was misunderstood, undiagnosed, and ignored.   

It still is. If we could view many of our human faults through the lens of empathy and understanding that mental illness requires, we would find our life ministering efforts more effective and our character more godly and charitable.

That's true to an extent.  But on the other hand, mental illness is so widely discussed/talked about/taught/diagnosed these days, that you can find people who aren't mentally ill, who think they are.  Self-diagnosing as a way to duck responsibility is absolutely a thing.  Teach 1000 kids that depression can be so bad, sometimes a depressed person can't even get out of bed, and you'll find a handful of kids who are suddenly so depressed they get to stay in bed with their iPhone all day.  There are an astounding number of divorce proceedings where the judge hears about why this or that person can't pay child support because they can't work because they're mentally ill.  

There's a happy medium somewhere.  Like anything else, it takes effort, maturity, knowledge, and love to find it. 

Edited by NeuroTypical
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I've had good personal experience with both therapy and medication when dealing with clinically diagnosed depression.  

For myself, I'd be much more inclined to listen to someone who comes to me gently, with love than someone who tells me to get over it.  I don't know how many times I've heard of depressed people being told to just be happy, just get over it.  I do know that I have never heard of it working.

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3 minutes ago, dprh said:

I've had good personal experience with both therapy and medication when dealing with clinically diagnosed depression.  

For myself, I'd be much more inclined to listen to someone who comes to me gently, with love than someone who tells me to get over it.  I don't know how many times I've heard of depressed people being told to just be happy, just get over it.  I do know that I have never heard of it working.

I’m sorry you had to deal with that. It’s a heartbreaking and frankly, unchristian thing to say to someone. Shows a chilling lack of empathy. 

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46 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

That's true to an extent.  But on the other hand, mental illness is so widely discussed/talked about/taught/diagnosed these days, that you can find people who aren't mentally ill, who think they are.  Self-diagnosing as a way to duck responsibility is absolutely a thing. 

Agreed. And in some cases it's a combination of both where they don't recognize their actual problems, but use a false/self diagnosis of a different problem as a crutch to avoid some uncomfortable challenges and responsibilities of life.

Unfortunately our society, our mental health support services, social services, and our Church are not equipped to deal with even a fraction of the mental illness and addiction needs out there. Temporary help abounds, but under the guise of maintaining their "freedom" we often end up creating more problems in the long run than we are solving IMHO.

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We have to understand that depression comes from a variety of causes.  And we have a lot of difficulty determining which cause someone suffers from.  The common practice today seems to be: regardless of the cause, medication is the answer.

For those who suffer on a physical, chemical level, the right medication certainly is the answer.  But if the cause is something else, medication has limited application.  How are we to know?  I would think that the patient and those who know and live him most (advised by keen minds of experts) would be the best judge of how to proceed.

And we also have to understand that, regardless of the cause, sometimes it is not within our current medical capabilities to change.

Sometimes, it isn't about "fixing it".  It is just about loving someone as much as possible.  We pray.  And we hope for the best.

That is pretty much all my wife did*.  I haven't had a suicidal thought in a few years.  I don't think it is "cured".  But it is a bit like being a recovering alcoholic.  I've been sober for years.  But I can still feel it nipping at my mind.  I've just gotten very good at managing it.

* After living with this for all my life, I realize that my personal issues were not biological.  So results may vary.

Edited by Carborendum
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@Fether, I can't speak for the young person you know.  But I can speak from my own different experience with depression (warning, this is heavy stuff).

My depression was the result of severe childhood abuse.  I grew up honestly believing that I was a "monster that needs to be killed to protect people".  It didn't matter how often the YW theme or other "You are of great worth to God" things were recited- it's like there was a plexiglass wall separating those statements from me.   This had nothing to do with pride or seeking attention or not taking responsibility.  In fact, took way way too much responsibility-- fighting terrible battles as a solo elementary kid.    I worked extremely hard to make sure nobody found out about my secret war-- thinking that others couldn't be trusted and this would just hurt them.  I was sure that if I tried hard enough, I could conquer this by myself.

I was so so so wrong. 

When I finally did relent to open up and get therapy... it made a world of difference.  Demons that I had struggled with in secret for decades... suddenly I had tools and guidance on how to really beat them.  I was able to learn tools to truly take care of myself.   I was able to forgive myself for perceived wrongs and honestly start feeling the love of Christ.

 

 

As to what to do with your young friend: there are indeed tools out there to help her.  Let her know where they are, let her know that you love her & you're there-- love her as the Savior loves her, truly taking the time to understand.   And then pray.  Often darkness comes before light, so I make no promises of instant turnarounds, but that is the start.

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14 hours ago, Fether said:

Naturally, I want to just grab her, shake her around, and demand she takes responsibility for these feelings.

During one of his many reflections on his time in the military, comic book industry figure Richard C. Meyer made the following observation: 

"It's not the bad soldiers you really need to worry about; it's the good soldiers who start sliding into being bad soldiers". 

What he learned from hard experience is that if these good soldiers start to come apart, it's a sign that their personal life is coming apart and that it's robbing them of the energy and focus they used to put into doing their job. Simply punishing them as if they were bad soldiers would only make matters worse, as it'd add to whatever the issue is. Rather, the better course of action was to sit down with them, have a talk, and find what the root cause of the issue was. That allows for a better determination of what's going on. 

For example, many business owners try to take advantage of younger soldiers by tricking them into bad contracts, usurious interest rates, and the like. If a soldier is distracted by their financial woes, they're not going to be at their best. This may require a talk with an on-base attorney or a financial counselor to sort out. Yes, some military bases actually do keep record of companies that mess over their soldiers and spread the word to avoid them. 

In the situation you're talking about, something has led to her feeling that she's worthless, which is leading her to slide into apathy and generally not taking care of herself, which is leading to the social outcast status that's reinforcing her feelings of worthlessness. Her desperate efforts to get attention suggest that she's being starved for attention she should be getting elsewhere, such as from her family or her local social circle. She's down low, wants someone to acknowledge the good in her, and that's not happening. 

What she likely needs is a friend, someone who she can talk with and who can gently inspire her to be a better person. 

Telling her to "just get over herself" is simply going to send the message that she's at fault for every little thing that's going wrong with her life, even if it's something she has no control over, like emotionally distant family or bullying from peers. 

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People generally are trying to be helpful... and they generally go with what works for them (aka Do unto other as you would have done to yourself)

Case in point... some days I do not want to get out of bed in the morning... and some days I have periods of sadness and depression (note the use of the small d there)  The answer for me is basically the whole "Just get over myself" mantra... and it works... for me.  And there are many who are just like me in that regards...  Among that group of people it and variations on it is a perfectly empathic, charitable, and helpful response.  It is what will work for them.

There is another group with Depression in the realm of mental illness (thus the capital D).  For these people the standard method does not work and can make it worse, they need more professional help and possibly meds.

The problem is we can not tell which category a person is in just by looking.  It is usually only by the first method failing repeatedly, that we normally start looking for more professional help

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15 hours ago, Fether said:

I know a person in high school that is experiencing a lot of depression and social anxiety. She is always down on herself and only speaks ill of herself. She talks about how she has no friends, she is overweight, and no one likes her.

Also, perhaps unsurprisingly, she doesn't take care of herself physically, will do nearly anything for attention (even up to lying). She often inserts herself into conversations in inappropriate matters.

I recognize this behavior.  I've seen it many times.  So, I'm going to give you a non-professional interpretation of these behaviors.  It is worth what you pay for it.

It is really about a social handicap. While not sinister, it often ends up being highly inappropriate.

  • She has an inability to properly interpret and respond to input from others.
  • Then her reactions (based on such inability) are completely inappropriate.  But she has no way of knowing that.
  • Such reactions elicit negative feedback.
  • The negative feedback causes her to think badly about herself. (No one likes her).
  • She craves positive feedback.
  • She tries really hard to get the attention of others by inserting herself into the conversations and social gatherings of others.  She may even lie especially about herself.
  • Because she does so in an inappropriate manner, she gets further negative feedback.

Round and round the cycle goes.

The worst part is if she is an introvert (Definition: a person who requires extra energy to be involved in social events).  If she requires extra energy to insert herself into these social events, then she feels even more depressed because she went through such effort for negative feedback.  An extrovert doesn't feel like it was wasted energy.  So, doesn't feel as bad about failed social events.

15 hours ago, Fether said:

The things she complains about are all self-induced. Her depression would be eased greatly if she started taking care of herself, stopped demanding attention, and stopped lying. 

You're looking at the behavior.  That will never change until the underlying cause is addressed.

One such individual (a 22 y.o.) provided EXTREMELY inappropriate conversation with my 11 y.o. daughter. I forced him out of my house and banned him from returning.  To get him out of the house, I literally had to threaten to kill him multiple times described in different ways until he got just how serious I was.  Threatening police action simply wasn't enough.  He just sat there asking, "Why?" So, if he didn't respond to my death threats, I would have commenced an extreme form of corporal punishment.

Probably not the most Christlike thing I've ever done in my life.  But in some circles his conversation would have been considered criminal.

It looks like your subject is not so far gone as that.

Her underlying cause is that she simply cannot process social cues like average people can.  It really is a handicap.  If that gets addressed (and I have no idea how) then she has a hope of developing into a strong, responsible, and capable adult.

As I said, take it for what it's worth  --  free advice from an amateur.

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20 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Her underlying cause is that she simply cannot process social cues like average people can.  It really is a handicap.  If that gets addressed (and I have no idea how) then she has a hope of developing into a strong, responsible, and capable adult.

As I said, take it for what it's worth  --  free advice from an amateur.

An extreme failure to process social cues can be a sign of various issues, everything from "on the autism spectrum" to "raised in an environment where they never got to properly socialize with others". 

If she has both going for her, then it's going to be extra hard. 

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For me, part of therapy for depression / life improvement was learning more social cues and what were accepted options at various points.   I'm not neurotypical, and this type of stuff doesn't remotely come naturally to me.

One simple example: I prefer to work hard then play hard.  During my first year of college, all of my classes/responsibilities were essentially loaded into 2 days a week, wherein I would start class a 7 AM and finish at 8 PM, with only a 30 minute lunch break in the middle.   This was actually a awesome schedule for me.  During that 30 minute break, my introverted self REALLY needed just 30 minutes of rest/alone time to recharge.  However, almost always some well meaning BYUI Samaritan would see the girl sitting in the corner by herself and come join me-- totally killing my recharge time!!!  Hence I was perpetually exhausted and actively resentful to all of these well meaning people, further fueling my depression and isolation.  

Now, with some more social education, I'm aware that one line would have solved so many issues: "hey, thanks for thinking of me.  However lunch is my 'me time' amongst my busy schedule and I really would appreciate just having some alone time to rest".  Problem completely solved!  

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And here y'all are learning why I have my screen name.  For whatever reason, I'm surrounded by people with all the interesting stories, people who are struggling to approximate normal despite incredible odds and unlevel playing fields.  But here I am with no such excuse.  It would be cool if I could explain my undesirable mannerisms on the autism scale, but no luck.  Or the hard time I had in school on this or that learning disability, but nope - I was just wasn't too bright or motivated.  About the best I can do, is blame my ulcer at 18 on stress caused by my crummy home life.  Still up to me to keep it treated so it doesn't bug me.

Edited by NeuroTypical
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38 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

And here y'all are learning why I have my screen name.  For whatever reason, I'm surrounded by people with all the interesting stories, people who are struggling to approximate normal despite incredible odds and unlevel playing fields.  But here I am with no such excuse.  It would be cool if I could explain my undesirable mannerisms on the autism scale, but no luck.  Or the hard time I had in school on this or that learning disability, but nope - I was just wasn't too bright or motivated.  About the best I can do, is blame my ulcer at 18 on stress caused by my crummy home life.  Still up to me to keep it treated so it doesn't but me.

I'm just finishing up "Look Me in the Eye" by John Elder Robison. Ever read it?

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19 hours ago, Fether said:

Mostly because, like women's rights, I am not allowed to talk about it because I haven't experienced it... or something like that.

Honestly, from your post, it sounds like you haven't put any study into it.  You've thought about it, but don't have any reference other than your own experience.  I'd suggest reading some articles on Depression or even talking to some people who have suffered with it.  It will probably change your outlook.  And until you do, it actually might be best for you not to talk about it.  The whole post came off as insensitive, uninformed, and rude.

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40 minutes ago, dprh said:

Honestly, from your post, it sounds like you haven't put any study into it.  You've thought about it, but don't have any reference other than your own experience.  I'd suggest reading some articles on Depression or even talking to some people who have suffered with it.  It will probably change your outlook.  And until you do, it actually might be best for you not to talk about it.  The whole post came off as insensitive, uninformed, and rude.

Oh absolutely I’m insensitive about, but this post wasn’t a “why don’t people just be happy!?” Post. Rather a “I recognize I don’t get it, what is the best way to do it?”.

I have been to counseling many times in my life. Sometimes for myself and sometimes I go with my wife. 
 

In the case of my wife, it wasn’t the things the therapist ever said that helped. Rather, the things my wife changed in her life is what helped her depression. And that is all I’m saying. I feel as though if my friend would take care of herself physically, recognize the pride that is in her that is demanding attention and forcing her to compare herself to everything and everyone, and realized her higher calling as a daughter of God and that God needs her and all her strengths.

I don’t think anyone has said any of that to her. These realizations are what will transform her. I am mostly wondering if the need to be gentle, soft, and affirming are stopping us from giving such tools to her (assuming that the depression is coming from inside and not trauma). I’m fine with the idea that after giving the tools and telling her these things, she doesn’t get immediately better, that it will take time. THAT makes perfect sense... but not giving her this info and helping her understand things are they really are, and rather just talk about the feelings and practice breathing exercises... doesn’t seem right

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Thank you to all who have shared your intimate personal struggles in these areas! When I was a youth and teenager I could not see or understand how many people around me were struggling in some way or another. Adults, other teens, children. I didn't know how hard their world's could be. Please forgive me for any of my thoughtless actions that may have contributed to yours or anyone else's personal struggles.

I will be forever grateful that the Lord chose in His infinite mercy to give me experiences with some of my own children going from incredible to incapacitated, straight A to nothing, calm to out of control, and to have worked closely with extended family members who struggled with addiction - not to get high, but to escape the darkness of every day life. It took me a long time to see but my eyes were opened, my heart was softened, my love stretched, my temper exposed, my judgement of others pruned to a nub, and my faith in Christ's Atonement deepened.

Edited by clwnuke
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6 minutes ago, Fether said:

Oh absolutely I’m insensitive about, but this post wasn’t a “why don’t people just be happy!?” Post. Rather a “I recognize I don’t get it, what is the best way to do it?”.

I have been to counseling many times in my life. Sometimes for myself and sometimes I go with my wife. 
 

In the case of my wife, it wasn’t the things the therapist ever said that helped. Rather, the things my wife changed in her life is what helped her depression. And that is all I’m saying. I feel as though if my friend would take care of herself physically, recognize the pride that is in her that is demanding attention and forcing her to compare herself to everything and everyone, and realized her higher calling as a daughter of God and that God needs her and all her strengths.

I don’t think anyone has said any of that to her. These realizations are what will transform her. I am mostly wondering if the need to be gentle, soft, and affirming are stopping us from giving such tools to her (assuming that the depression is coming from inside and not trauma). I’m fine with the idea that after giving the tools and telling her these things, she doesn’t get immediately better, that it will take time. THAT makes perfect sense... but not giving her this info and helping her understand things are they really are, and rather just talk about the feelings and practice breathing exercises... doesn’t seem right

Thanks for clarifying Fether.  

If you're counting out medication and therapy, then, as others have said, be a good friend.  Yes, friends should be willing to give hard advice, but that's only after a real established relationship of trust.  Hours and months of talking.  Like I said before, I don't know of anyone who was Depressed reacting positively to "just get over it"  I would highly recommend against the tough love approach.

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