Commercial Racism

[mordorbund]

"We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone"

I remember a few discussions a while back where arguments were made in favor of allowing businesses to discriminate and let them face the market consequences (if any). Have any of you changed your position? Or did I misrepresent it? Or perhaps this example still fits in that philosophy?

[NeuroTypical]

I'm still a fan of the principle.  It's why I'm voting for letting the employer know - pretty sure that Costco doesn't support this sort of crap, and they'll take steps to deal with the employee. 

[mirkwood]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

I'm still a fan of the principle.  It's why I'm voting for letting the employer know - pretty sure that Costco doesn't support this sort of crap, and they'll take steps to deal with the employee. 

Yes.  +1

[Carborendum]

12 hours ago, mordorbund said:

"We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone"

I remember a few discussions a while back where arguments were made in favor of allowing businesses to discriminate and let them face the market consequences (if any). Have any of you changed your position? Or did I misrepresent it? Or perhaps this example still fits in that philosophy?

Nope.  Haven't changed my position.  They have the right to refuse service to me.  If they hadn't given me the cash that I was due, that would have been a breach of contract.  But I did eventually get my money.  The rest of it was simply "highly unpleasant noise".

I've spent some time thinking about the will of the managers vs the will of the employee.  "WE" reserve the right... Who is that?  Any employee?  The manager?  The company as a whole?

There is an argument to be made that the local office or the company-wide policy has such freedom, but individuals must abide by those policies or they could be fired.  There is also an argument that could be made that any employee reserves the right to not serve any customer.  Then the employee must square with the employer.

One big thing that stands out to me is that people don't change because of complaints.  Maybe these individuals will learn their lesson if I complained to management.  But maybe they may be further agitated by such action.  Maybe nothing changes.  So, what good would my complaint do?

It may have taken me a little longer.  It may have required a few extra hoops to jump through. But I got what I wanted from the business in the end.  So,  why do I need to bother with something like this?

I realize that black people have had it a lot harder (as far as racism) than I ever have.  I've long held that everyone has difficulties.  And we all do our best to just work through it all as if the world is not going to change.  We just have to go through the extra hoops that are required of us as individuals.

While it would be ideal for us to be able to change the world.  But we don't do that through complaining about things.  That is accomplished through the gospel.  The approach of complaining about it is to try changing the behavior by exerting power over the individual.  Christ seeks to change a person's heart and then that person changes their behavior.

There is a point where it becomes oppressive.  But I don't think my little experience reaches that point.  Is it ideal?  Or course not.  But all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable.

[LDSGator]

On 5/11/2021 at 3:11 PM, Vort said:

You know what's even more disgusting than racism?

Murder.

https://www.fox13news.com/video/932742?utm_campaign=trueanthem&utm_medium=trueanthem&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR09CRqjn_YioqNFzEb9y0hj5VmyaFh1ukIbB3dlZkV_SEtS5b_cMeM7fy0

Update: he was charged with Manslaughter. Still bad, but not murder. 

Two lessons here. One, control your temper and don’t punch people. Taking a life over this is l horrific, and you deserve jail time. Was it worth it? 
 

Lesson two? Watch your mouth. If you want to drop slurs you are asking for this. Others may not agree with your right to “free speech”.   Was it worth it?

Edited May 14, 2021 by LDSGator

[NeuroTypical]

Dang. 

We need to re-leaven the notion of "your right to swing your arms ends just where my nose begins", as a way to tell whether it's ok to beat on someone or not.  It's not ok to respond to speech with violence.  Dude needs to be tried, convicted, sentenced, and imprisoned.

Yeah, the doctrine of "fighting words" deals with limitations on free speech, not a defense against assault or manslaughter.

Calling someone names doesn't count as inciting violence.

Edited May 14, 2021 by NeuroTypical

[LDSGator]

26 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Dang. 

We need to re-leaven the notion of "your right to swing your arms ends just where my nose begins", as a way to tell whether it's ok to beat on someone or not.  It's not ok to respond to speech with violence.  Dude needs to be tried, convicted, sentenced, and imprisoned.

Yeah, the doctrine of "fighting words" deals with limitations on free speech, not a defense against assault or manslaughter.

Calling someone names doesn't count as inciting violence.

All true. To be 100% clear, the kid is the bigger criminal here. Yes, he deserves jail time. Probably 7-10 years. 
 

BUT

You know how this could have been avoided? How he could still be alive? By keeping his mouth shut. No racial comment, no attack. So the kid isn't a murderer, he’s a punk who can't control his temper. Which, like I said, is also horrible. 
 

When your Uncle Joe said “Don’t let your mouth write a check your butt can’t cash” he was crude, but also accurate. 

Again, I’m not saying it’s right, and I’m not saying that the old guy deserved to die. Though honestly, I’m not going to lose much sleep over one dead racist who flipped out over not getting his coffee on time. In fact, if you have that much hate in your heart like this guy obviously did,  I assume living is as bad a punishment as death is. 

Edited May 14, 2021 by LDSGator

[Vort]

2 hours ago, LDSGator said:

If you want to drop slurs you are asking for this.

This is untrue.

[LDSGator]

10 minutes ago, Vort said:

This is untrue.

It’s actually quite true, thanks. You have free speech to say what you want, but if I call Mike’s wife and daughter filthy names, I’m asking to get attacked. Should I be attacked? Of course not, but I’m still asking for it. 

Edited May 14, 2021 by LDSGator

[Vort]

26 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

You know how this could have been avoided? How he could still be alive? By keeping his mouth shut. No racial comment, no attack. So the kid isn't a murderer, he’s a punk who can't control his temper. Which, like I said, is also horrible.

The answer to all bullies is to never do anything the bully doesn't like.

If the kid murdered someone, he is by definition a murderer. "Murder" is more than a legal term; it is a moral term. This was unjustified and arguably intentional homicide. That's murder.

26 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Again, I’m not saying it’s right, and I’m not saying that the old guy deserved to die. Though honestly, I’m not going to lose much sleep over one dead racist who flipped out over not getting his coffee on time.

Because when it comes down to it, the old guy was just a racist and deserved to die.

[Vort]

6 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

It’s actually quite true, thanks. You have free speech to say what you want, but if I call Mike’s wife and daughter filthy names, I’m asking to get attacked. Should I be attacked? Of course not, but I’m still asking for it.

Wrong. Saying "You're an idiot and your mother is ugly" is not asking for someone to attack you. You ask for it by saying, "Will you please attack me?"

[Vort]

3 hours ago, LDSGator said:

Two lessons here. One, control your temper and don’t punch people. Taking a life over this is l horrific, and you deserve jail time. Was it worth it? 

Lesson two? Watch your mouth. If you want to drop slurs you are asking for this. Others may not agree with your right to “free speech”.   Was it worth it?

It is unbelievable that you think these two events are comparable. Calling a man a nasty name vs. killing a man. Yep, that looks pretty much identical.

[LDSGator]

Just now, Vort said:

Wrong. Saying "You're an idiot and your mother is ugly" is not asking for someone to attack you. You ask for it by saying, "Will you please attack me?"

Oh!! I’m SO GLAD you said that. 
 

 The “victim” here apparently repeated the slur multiple times, left his truck and challenged the kid to a fight. The kid took him up on the offer. So...there’s that. 
 

 

[Vort]

1 minute ago, LDSGator said:

The “victim” here apparently repeated the slur multiple times, left his truck and challenged the kid to a fight. The kid took him up on the offer. So...there’s that. 

What was I thinking? He said a bad word MULTIPLE TIMES. That certainly justifies homicide. Thanks for pointing out that relevant detail.

Please note that the guy who was killed was not actually a victim; he was a "victim". Just an even-headed assessment of the situation.

Edited May 14, 2021 by Vort

[LDSGator]

Just now, Vort said:

It is unbelievable that you think these two events are comparable. Calling a man a nasty name vs. killing a man. Yep, that looks pretty much identical.

It’s unbelievable to me that you fail to comprehend how disgusting these words are, and how your actions have consequences, so we’re pretty much equal here. 

[LDSGator]

Just now, Vort said:

What was I thinking? He said a bad word MULTIPLE TIMES. That certainly justifies homicide. Thanks for pointing out that relevant detail.

Welcome. And you ignores the part where the old guy ASKED HIM TO FIGHT. 

[LDSGator]

And I also said “manslaughter”, that it wasn’t justified, and he should do jail time. So there’s that too. Which you either ignored or refused to read. 

Edited May 14, 2021 by LDSGator

[Vort]

2 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

It’s unbelievable to me that you fail to comprehend how disgusting these words are, and how your actions have consequences, so we’re pretty much equal here. 

Absolutely. Failing to equate the "n-word" to murder is exactly as bad as justifying murder.

[LDSGator]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

Absolutely. Failing to equate the "n-word" to murder is exactly as bad as justifying murder.

You say “murder” but you are clearly unable to comprehend the he was charged with manslaughter. Big difference you don’t grasp.  And, and-again-he challenged the kid. 

Edited May 14, 2021 by LDSGator

[Vort]

1 minute ago, LDSGator said:

You say “murder” but you are clearly unable to comprehend the he was charged with manslaughter. 

But since you're all hung up on the fact that the kid was not charged with murder, but manslaughter, I will rephrase.

Failing to equate the "n-word" to wrongfully killing someone is exactly as bad as justifying wrongfully killing someone.

Feel better?

[LDSGator]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

Feel better?

Much. And again, I said the kid deserved time. Something else you conveniently ignored. 
 

see you in church. 😘

Edited May 14, 2021 by LDSGator

[Vort]

1 minute ago, LDSGator said:

see you in church. :-* 

Unlikely.

[LDSGator]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

Unlikely.

And thank God for that. 

Edited May 14, 2021 by LDSGator

[Vort]

2 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Much. And again, I said the kid deserved time. Something else you conveniently ignored.

I ignored it because it was irrelevant. Of course the kid deserves jail time. That doesn't justify your horrendous judgment in equating the two acts.

[LDSGator]

3 minutes ago, Vort said:

I ignored it because it was irrelevant. Of course the kid deserves jail time. That doesn't justify your horrendous judgment in equating the two acts.

Hey, just pretend she was a woman exposing her shoulders. Then she would have deserved being cat called, so it’s the same thing taken to another level. 
 

there. Last word is all yours.