Requiring a COVID-19 Vaccine (shot/s)


Traveler
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On 7/26/2021 at 3:54 PM, dprh said:

I really am wondering if the people who aren't getting the shot are following that guidance to get advice from a medical professional.

I think for many this is problematic. As others have mentioned it seems entirely possible that seeking to listen to the spirit and seeking to listen to a doctor can be at odds with each other, so who to listen to? I'd choose the spirit, but on such a heated topic that may be problematic in and of itself because people may convince themselves the answer they "want" is from the spirit whether that is for or against the treatment.

While I have had heard of some doctors giving advice to certain people not to get vaccinated, I think others will be afraid to give such counsel even if they feel it is the correct course of action. I believe it was @Vort who mentioned how doctors generally carefully follow standard of practice guidelines set forth by governing health bodies, so for one they are discouraged from thinking for themselves outside of the decided upon approved treatments that aren't always the best options available. They also need to fear losing jobs over making perfectly reasonable assessments that go outside of what the governing organizations want to push. This article shows an example of a professional being "cancelled" for daring to speak out on the topic of informed consent and vaccines https://sharylattkisson.com/2021/06/censored-pro-vaccine-doctor-francis-christian-over-covid-19-vaccine-safety-concerns/. Informed consent should be a cornerstone of any doctor/patient treatment transaction and should not be controversial. But for reasons that seem to come down to greed (power, control, money) even a fundamental principle such as this comes under attack if it could possibly stop people from lining up and rolling up sleeves. It seems to be the same reason that other treatments have to be attacked as well, because otherwise the emergency use authorization of the vaccines would be pulled and money would be lost for vaccine manufacturers:

 https://www.biznews.com/thought-leaders/2021/05/12/mailbox-ivermectin?fbclid=IwAR1wMMcth7nZ2pZcc_V2NaLt4BFamAIcclnMPQs-51kMV_O95mmyZNbzyhM (just one example)

 

So the problem comes down to not really feeling great about putting trust in the arm of flesh when so much of the medical-industrial complex and the bought off media continue to push narratives in one direction only while censoring and grasping for any reason to naysay anything that goes contrary to that narrative regardless of what evidence shows. And even there, an appeal to "science" is really convoluted as a stand alone argument because it still comes to a religious belief in what "science" is valid science and what is not. Take nutrition for instance, It seems clear to me that a close to fully whole food plant-based diet is closest to the word of wisdom and best for overall health and there are many experts who would agree with me with plenty of data to back it up. However, in religious fashion there are also many low-carb believers who also have what appears to be evidence on their side (I personally don't think it's great evidence, but many of them do) Both sides can get into big arguments over why the other's science is wrong and using cherry-picked data. 

 

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1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

The fun rhetoric from some people who are paid journalists, isn’t helping.

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As someone who writes for a newspaper? 

If he's been using his account for official business, then this could easily be (mis)taken as the official position of whatever organization he works with. 

His editors may want a word with him after this one. 

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15 hours ago, Ironhold said:

As someone who writes for a newspaper? 

If he's been using his account for official business, then this could easily be (mis)taken as the official position of whatever organization he works with. 

His editors may want a word with him after this one. 

It would seem that our main stream media, plus Fox News, is currently evolving in their coverage of the CDC and the virus.  Even CNN is saying that the messaging coming from the CDC is confusing.  A study of the outbreak of the virus in Provincetown Mass (early July of this year) indicates that over 75% of those involved in being infected and speeding the virus were fully "vaccinated".   This is why the CDC is recommending that we wear a mask in public - both indoors and outdoors.  But it is interesting what the reporter for the NY Times (Dan Hodges) tweeted and it is also interesting that the tweet was not blocked because of False and irresponsible content?  It appears to follow from the CDC study that if there are to be charges of murder it must be upon the fully "vaccinated" because they are the more responsible than the "unvaccinated" for spreading the virus according the the Science of the CDC study.

But there is something else that is being left out of the discussions (though I am seeing the argument being raised by a few - doctors and reporters).  This is that there is data showing that there is a percentage of our human population that is naturally immune to the virus.  This demographic, from all accounts, remain mostly asymptomatic and do NOT spread the virus.  From the onset of the initial outbreak in China - science has turned to this demographic to reverse engineer the "vaccine" in the first place.  Because the "vaccine" is reversed engineered from natural immune responses is why there was an early release without long term trails.  Little by little it would seem that the world is waking up to the fact that not only do individuals with natural immunity do not need to be vaccinated but they and perhaps the rest of the world would be "Safer" (especially long term)  if they were not "vaccinated".   It appears obvious to me that something is missing in our rush to create the "vaccine".

Two thing stand out to me.  First - I wonder why there is no testing for natural immunity and why this demographic is so ignored (except to create the vaccine)?  I will be honest in saying that this looks like a conspiracy to me - both nationally and internationally.  Because it appears that I fall into this category of natural immunity I have developed an opinion why.  I think my diet and exercise habits have an impact - but I have learned that any criticism of personal choices resulting in obesity is considered hateful (evil) in our current social climate.   And yet - being overweight may be the factor of greatest risk in this pandemic.  As a side note this would account for why the USA was hit harder (under Trump) than anywhere else?  Would we (like Dan Hodges) dare say those that are overweight are murders worthy of punishments?  I hope not!!!  Why is such hate allowed?  We all can make choices - if we make correct choices it is better for everybody - if we do not make good choices it is always to our own detriment and those that are closest to us.  It would seem that the greatest protection from bad choices by others is to make good choices for yourself.   It also seems logical to me that generally speaking - younger people are generally in better shape and bad habits have greater effects as we age.

The second thing - is that it appears to me that there needs to be more criticism of our politics and science - not less.  I hope that after a year and a half of this pandemic that this is obvious to everybody that those in the media - especially social media - have utterly failed.  To me this failure looks a lot like a criminal conspiracy. 

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
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5 minutes ago, Traveler said:

would seem that our main stream media, plus Fox News, is currently evolving in their coverage of the CDC and the virus.

To be fair, the virus is also very new and evolving, so it should come as no surprise that coverage changes too. 

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1 minute ago, LDSGator said:

To be fair, the virus is also very new and evolving, so it should come as no surprise that coverage changes too. 

And yet we have learned that this particular virus has been studied in labs for at least a decade - the excuse for this type of study made by our own Dr. Fauci is so we can prevent a global pandemic. 

 

The Traveler

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6 minutes ago, Traveler said:

And yet we have learned that this particular virus has been studied in labs for at least a decade - the excuse for this type of study made by our own Dr. Fauci is so we can prevent a global pandemic. 

 

The Traveler

Right, and he’s a hero who is trying to save lives. So is the CDC. Being totally blunt, it blows my mind that people think he’s some kind of evil villain. It’s made me rethink things, that’s for sure. 

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17 hours ago, SpiritDragon said:

I think for many this is problematic. As others have mentioned it seems entirely possible that seeking to listen to the spirit and seeking to listen to a doctor can be at odds with each other, so who to listen to? I'd choose the spirit, but on such a heated topic that may be problematic in and of itself because people may convince themselves the answer they "want" is from the spirit whether that is for or against the treatment.

Sadly, I think I see this is a lot.

Ultimately, if you have a contraindication to a vaccine, you have a contraindication to a vaccine. Perhaps the Spirit may clue you in to realize or check for such. This is all well and good. Thanks, Spirit, for having our backs there.

But here's a true story for you: I got into such an argument on a Facebook mom group (surprise, surprise). A woman of the Church was convinced that all vaccinating members had it wrong. She couldn't accept the idea that the Spirit might prompt someone to vaccinate. Her reasoning was that most of the Church doesn't know how to actually listen to spiritual promptings. She wound up stating that she doesn't vaccinate because she is at a higher spiritual level than the majority of the Church.

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4 hours ago, LDSGator said:

Right, and he’s a hero who is trying to save lives.

His efforts over the last decade may be responsible for the loss of lives due to COVID.  This virus is not new to the Dr.  There was a reason the Dr. was deeply involved in the study of the virus from the beginning and why the Obama administration cancelled the study in the USA.  Do you know why the Dr. facilitated moving the study of this particular virus to China?  I don't.  I also do not understand why efforts to make the virus transmittable to humans is not gain of function.

 

Quote

So is the CDC. Being totally blunt, it blows my mind that people think he’s some kind of evil villain. It’s made me rethink things, that’s for sure. 

In most cases, when mistakes have been made, the greater evil results from attempts to cover up how the mistake was made.  My biggest question is why the CDC and Dr. Fauci refuse to recognize that natural immunity is better than the vaccine?  Or to even address that question.  When that question is answered - Honestly and in the full light of day and open to scientific scrutiny - I will have more faith in both.  The longer that question is ignored the less faith I have that they are not involved in a conspiracy to hide something. 

 

The Traveler

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1 hour ago, Traveler said:

His efforts over the last decade may be responsible for the loss of lives due to COVID.  This virus is not new to the Dr.  There was a reason the Dr. was deeply involved in the study of the virus from the beginning and why the Obama administration cancelled the study in the USA.  Do you know why the Dr. facilitated moving the study of this particular virus to China?  I don't.  I also do not understand why efforts to make the virus transmittable to humans is not gain of function.

 

In most cases, when mistakes have been made, the greater evil results from attempts to cover up how the mistake was made.  My biggest question is why the CDC and Dr. Fauci refuse to recognize that natural immunity is better than the vaccine?  Or to even address that question.  When that question is answered - Honestly and in the full light of day and open to scientific scrutiny - I will have more faith in both.  The longer that question is ignored the less faith I have that they are not involved in a conspiracy to hide something. 

 

The Traveler

Yup, we see things vastly, vastly differently. And that’s okay. If we agreed on everything life would be quite dull. 

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Every time I watch network TV I am bombarded by prescription drug ads. 
Anyone know why we don't see manufacture specific vaccine ads on TV?
I'm not talking generic, "get vaccinated" ads, but why aren't Pfizer, Moderna, etc. producing ads directly to consumers? 

This is not a bait question, I'm curious if anyone knows why not?
I have heard theories as to why not, but looking for any insight someone might have.

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12 hours ago, Backroads said:

Sadly, I think I see this is a lot.

Ultimately, if you have a contraindication to a vaccine, you have a contraindication to a vaccine. Perhaps the Spirit may clue you in to realize or check for such. This is all well and good. Thanks, Spirit, for having our backs there.

But here's a true story for you: I got into such an argument on a Facebook mom group (surprise, surprise). A woman of the Church was convinced that all vaccinating members had it wrong. She couldn't accept the idea that the Spirit might prompt someone to vaccinate. Her reasoning was that most of the Church doesn't know how to actually listen to spiritual promptings. She wound up stating that she doesn't vaccinate because she is at a higher spiritual level than the majority of the Church.

Yeah. This is unfortunate when we take the position of greater worthiness over personal decisions. Medical procedures can easily be right for one and wrong for another and there is no reason to get upset with each other over such things. Getting the vaccine is not essential to salvation and I don't think that getting it is going to lead to damnation either.

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On 7/31/2021 at 9:56 AM, LDSGator said:
On 7/31/2021 at 9:48 AM, Traveler said:

And yet we have learned that this particular virus has been studied in labs for at least a decade - the excuse for this type of study made by our own Dr. Fauci is so we can prevent a global pandemic. 

Right, and he’s a hero who is trying to save lives. So is the CDC.

I was finally able to figure out my thoughts on this issue.  I was raised by a WWII vet.  Raised by the generation that thought about things in these terms:

"We can attain this goal/overcome this obstacle/win this fight.  It will take us [this many] lives and [this much] suffering to do so.  Is it worth it?  Yes!  I mean, well, not immediately, and not worth it for us, but it's a worthy thing to shoot for, and our children will live in a better world because of it."

Fast forward past Gen X, Y, Z, to the millennials, and now the going notion is something like this: 

"We have to make difficult public policy orders mandatory, so we can protect the people who decide to not get vaccinated, from the consequences of their choices."

Yeah, Fauci and the CDC have their hearts in the right place.  But my dad's generation went about it in wiser ways.

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29 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Yeah, Fauci and the CDC have their hearts in the right place.  But my dad's generation went about it in wiser ways.

I can understand that, even if I don’t see it the same way. 
 

To me, it incorporates other issues we’ve talked about recently. I don’t see the CDC or Fauci as people who stroke their beards around a table and say “Let’s see how we can get those nasty conservatives.” The man is more interested in saving your life, no matter how ungrateful you are. 
 

Sometimes the most traveled roads are well traveled for a reason. Maybe, just maybe, the reason the CDC and so many doctors are in favor of vaccines and masks is because....they work.

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Absolutely vaccines work, and absolutely this vaccine against covid has proven wildly effective.  There simply is no serious voice that can be raised against the effectiveness of the vaccine.

 I’m thinking more about the usefulness of post-vaccine talk about masks, social distancing, and the possibility of more lockdowns.  My work was all gearing up for a return to site-on hold now due to the recent CDC shenanigans.

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11 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Absolutely vaccines work, and absolutely this vaccine against covid has proven wildly effective.  There simply is no serious voice that can be raised against the effectiveness of the vaccine.

Yup, agree fully. 
 

 

12 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

My work was all gearing up for a return to site-on hold now due to the recent CDC shenanigans.

Sorry my friend. It’s hard to adapt in these changing times, and I say that in all seriousness. 

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On 7/31/2021 at 3:58 PM, LDSGator said:

Yup, we see things vastly, vastly differently. And that’s okay. If we agreed on everything life would be quite dull. 

I expect someone that has studied for a decade and puts themself out as the world's leading expert of something to have a much better record and more open about their connection to research (including research in China) - especially testifying under oath before congress - not to be so animate over definitions of terms and give clear and correct responses.  Millions of died because he was wrong in the beginning; concerning the method of transmission - like I said - about a virus he has been studying and claiming to be expert, overseeing and funding for years.  At least he ought to be more open to other opinions - especially since he has been so wrong so many times.  I would expect to be fired if I had made even a portion of the mistakes he has for something so critical.

 

The Traveler

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One of the most notorious and probably disturbing, from law enforcement point of view, of the arsonists in Southern California was John Orr, who was an arson investigator himself, who turned out to be the man setting the fires – a fatal fire in one case. Yes, John Orr is a rock star in the arson world.  John Orr is the most famous because he is an arson investigator. He was a lecturer on serial arsonists. He was with the Glendale Fire Department.

Like Orr, Fauci is a rock star to many and a scientific demi-god to some.
More and more Covid-19 looks to have come from the Wuhan Lab in China, the same lab Fauci helped fund.
Rather than the Covid savior the media wishes him to be, he more likely played a role as the harbinger of death.
The walls are closing down on him as his gain of function 'scheme' has more and more light cast upon it each day.

Fauci has a deep vested interest to cover his own butt at this point.

Edited by NeedleinA
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On 8/1/2021 at 2:56 PM, NeuroTypical said:

There simply is no serious voice that can be raised against the effectiveness of the vaccine.


Huh? 
 

I would say that logic alone casts doubt on its “effectiveness.” 
 

Remember, all of the “effectiveness” that we hear is third and fourth hand at best. WE aren’t performing the experiments. WE aren’t documenting the results of testing. WE are simply relying on the information that is being passed on to the general public. Information that has, in several instances, changed direction as further testing has been performed. 
 

1. The effectiveness of the vaccine does not mean that you won’t get COVID-19. 

- This first one has been stated over and over and has been proven true again and again. I have witnessed firsthand several people in my ward who have been vaccinated become sick and hospitalized with COVID-19. If the vaccine was effective in keeping the vaccinated from catching the sickness, then there would be no further need of masks or social distancing once vaccinated. 

2. The symptoms will be lessened for those who get the vaccine who then catch COVID-19? 
- Is there a quantifiable way to judge this statement?  Because we were told for a year that the mask mandate was in place because we could be asymptomatic. In other words, for one year, we had to wear masks because we could have the virus and not even know it. How can our symptoms be made less than zero? 
- So, if the symptoms are individualistic in their severity, how can any study “prove” that the symptoms would be lessened by having the vaccine prior to catching the sickness? Is there a quantifiable study that can judge the severity of symptoms an individual will have before vs. after a vaccination? 
 

So, if by logic alone the above statements are disputable, then by what measurement is the vaccine so effective that no serious voice can be raised against it? 

 

Edited by Colirio
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49 minutes ago, Colirio said:

Remember, all of the “effectiveness” that we hear is third and fourth hand at best. WE aren’t performing the experiments. WE aren’t documenting the results of testing. WE are simply relying on the information that is being passed on to the general public. Information that has, in several instances, changed direction as further testing has been performed. 

This is an excellent point. I'm no vaccine hater—in fact, I and my entire family got vaccinated a couple of months ago—but when the information sources themselves prove biased and unreliable, you can't trust anything they say. At the very least, you have to look over the extensive data set and do the math yourself, which most people are not qualified to do. Even then, you still have to depend that (a) the numbers they report are accurate, (b) they have not fudged the numbers by counting edge cases or blatant false counting (such as the many anecdotes of mom's death by heart attack or falling off the porch being chalked up to COVID), and (c) there are no deep systematic errors in generating the numbers.

No. The media have proved themselves entirely and utterly unreliable. The government itself and its officials are not leaders, but cheerleaders. My own uninformed opinion is that the preponderance of evidence suggests that the vaccines are probably effective. But if you reject the sources of information as biased—which is true beyond any possible doubt—then you might well arrive at the opposite conclusion, and only a fanatic in deep denial of what has been happening for years before our very eyes will scold you or call you names.

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3 hours ago, Colirio said:

2. The symptoms will be lessened for those who get the vaccine who then catch COVID-19? 
- Is there a quantifiable way to judge this statement?  

Yes.  Go ask any hospital or morgue, anywhere in the country, about who is getting hospitalized or dying because of COVID.  They'll tell you it's pretty much only the unvaccinated people.  Vaccinated people being treated for COVID are almost nonexistent in hospitals or morgues. For example: COVID-19 Vaccine Breakthrough Cases: Data from the States-kff.org

Take a look at the Figure 2 chart: 

Deaths:
image.thumb.png.9bfd58e791de55bd44842aacd80e1039.png

 

Hospitalizations:
image.thumb.png.31b773d44717889a0564c301fcbb8396.png

 

Other sources:

https://www.texastribune.org/2021/07/21/coronavirus-texas-vaccinated-deaths/ - Texas has seen nearly 9,000 COVID-19 deaths since February. All but 43 were unvaccinated people.

https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-health-941fcf43d9731c76c16e7354f5d5e187 - Nearly all COVID-19 deaths in the U.S. now are in people who weren’t vaccinated, a staggering demonstration of how effective the shots have been and an indication that deaths per day — now down to under 300 — could be practically zero if everyone eligible got the vaccine.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/breakthrough-cases.html - "As of July 26, 2021, more than 163 million people in the United States had been fully vaccinated against COVID-19. During the same time, CDC received reports from 49 U.S. states and territories of 6,587 patients with COVID-19 vaccine breakthrough infection who were hospitalized or died."  That's 0.004%.   Compared to US unvaccinated deaths ranging from hundreds to thousands per day, and the conclusion is pretty obvious.

 

The only way someone can deny the overwhelmingly, steamrollingly obvious truth about the vaccine's effectiveness, is to start saying stuff like "The Texas Tribune has teamed up with the AP and the CDC, and every single hospital director in the US too, to lie to us about the truth".  In other words, it puts you on the same level as the flat earthers. 

I totally get just abstaining from any news or source, and automatically disbelieve everything.  Healthy skepticism is a good thing.  But if you expect to have a valid voice on a subject, "I stick my fingers in my ears and yell lalalala because everyone is lying" isn't a very persuasive place to start.

Am I wrong?

Edited by NeuroTypical
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Ah yes… the statistics. The graphs. More third and fourth hand info again. 
 

Go to a hospital like the ones I work in frequently? Ok. Done. I received a different story than the one you presented. Instead - 

- What about the graphs that show how many of those healthcare workers in hospitals that refuse to get the vaccine in the face of such “OVERWHELMING” evidence? 
https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20210628/huge-number-of-hospital-workers

So much so that they are willing to lose their careers over it in multiple states such as:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/us/more-than-170-houston-hospital-workers-suspended-over-refusing-vaccine.amp

 

But these have little to do with the logical disputes that I presented. 
 

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

The only way someone can deny the overwhelmingly, steamrollingly obvious truth about the vaccine's effectiveness, is to start saying stuff like "The Texas Tribune has teamed up with the AP and the CDC, and every single hospital director in the US too, to lie to us about the truth".  In other words, it puts you on the same level as the flat earthers. 


A01E8F12-DBED-4413-B4E0-62A66AE5B623.jpeg.0ea214c543315f4d31f963f197acfd88.jpeg

 

You claimed that no serious voice can be raised about the effectiveness of the vaccine. I raised logical questions for which you offered little explanation. You doubled down on mainstream statistics that didn’t specifically address my questions of logic.  
 

Instead, you actually bring out an additional question of logic where COVID deaths have significantly dropped. But then no correlation is presented as to how these numbers of deaths have dropped more significantly than the percentages in which people have been vaccinated. 
 

To be clear, I am not saying whether anyone should or should not get the vaccine.
 

My whole point is that there ARE questions related to the “effectiveness” of the vaccine that are not being addressed. Just because you refuse to entertain them does not make them go away or that those who do should be dismissed. 

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I get that we’re being given so much bad data that it’s easy to sink into a sort of nihilism.  That said, @Colirio—you sort of lose me when you suggest that a vaccine has to be 100% effective in every single individual who receives it.  No vaccine is 100% effective; pre-COVID, I think most educated people understood that.  That’s where this notion of “herd immunity” comes in.  If a person sets up a sort of unattainable straw man regarding what “effectiveness” has to look like, it makes me wonder whether the person is arguing from an unacknowledged predisposition that leads them to want the vaccine to be judged “ineffective”.  

If I may be a bit blunt:  Your most recent response also leads me to wonder whether you took the time to see what the data in @NeuroTypical’s graphs was really showing.  They don’t show declines in hospitalizations or deaths over time; they show who’s in the hospital now.  Who’s dying now.  And by a staggering proportion—it’s the unvaccinated.  

I don’t mean to suggest that the statistics are scripture.  Certainly with regard to ascertaining cause-of-death, there has been some slipperiness; some of it unintentional and some of it . . . not.  But it’s relatively easy to know whether a COVID victim has been vaccinated or not; this particular dataset is not particularly difficult to define or collate.  And FWIW:  my brother is the controller for a regional network of hospitals on the west coast.  He is strongly conservative and pretty disgusted at all the leftist milking and melodrama over COVID-19.  But he adamantly insists that the numbers being reported by his institution are being compiled and relayed in good faith.  The sort of conspiracy it would take to manipulate the sort of data NT has presented here and to keep it all secret would be absolutely monumental; and speaking as a government bureaucrat myself—we are neither smart enough nor competent enough to pull off something like that.  

FWIW, I also know a few in-the-trenches health care workers, including a couple who chose not to take the vaccine themselves.  They uniformly acknowledge that it is “effective” in the clinical sense of the word; they have simply taken the calculated risk that given their young ages and fit physical conditions, they would statistically be better off contracting COVID than getting a vaccine whose clinical test results are still coming in and whose side effects can be pretty rough.  That’s a fair position to take.  But if we’re looking at “hospital workers” as a source of scientific authority—we need to recognize that many of these folks are twentysomething recent college grads who (think they) aren’t particularly vulnerable to COVID, or support workers/CNAs/janitors/cafeteria workers who are often ethnic minorities and have the Tuskegee experiments or other general mistrust of “white” institutions fresh in their minds.  I’m not particularly interested in the scientific deductive reasoning of Bedpan Brittany.  But I am very interested in a recent poll indicating that 96% of practicing physicians have chosen to become fully vaccinated.  

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