Requiring a COVID-19 Vaccine (shot/s)

[NeuroTypical]

13 hours ago, LDSGator said:

Regardless, it doesn’t address what I said either. If you refuse to wear a mask because you “forget who you are under it” you’ve got to age past your emo phase. 

Heh.  I love V for Vendetta, and need to watch it again.  That said, yeah, Gator's right.

And he should know - this is a picture from his high school year book:

Edited August 19, 2021 by NeuroTypical

[dprh]

13 hours ago, mikbone said:

We know that COVID is aerosolized.  So instead of the pissing and sneezing example a more appropriate example is passing gas.  Guess what… Pants and masks don’t give you much protection. 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-8275855/Professor-answers-question-jeans-stop-fart-mask-prevent-coronavirus.html

Someone has actually researched analyzed that  

Edited August 19, 2021 by dprh
thought of a more accurate word.

[mikbone]

4 hours ago, dprh said:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-8275855/Professor-answers-question-jeans-stop-fart-mask-prevent-coronavirus.html

Someone has actually researched that  

Yup but their conclusion is flawed.  Because the COVID virus is still smaller than the N95 pores.  And everyone is using cloth & paper masks instead of N95 masks.

And no one knows how to use masks properly.  Or if they do know, they don’t do it.

I was professionally fitted for an N95 mask.  The attempt took 15 minutes.  The technician never could get an acceptable seal trying over and over again and signed me off with a passing seal anyway.  Which she said she almost has to do with everyone.  And I have been using masks for 20 years as a surgeon.

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2018-130/pdfs/2018-130.pdf

The above is the CDC document about N95 mask seal check test and the importance of having the test done and using the mask correctly.  I wonder why no medical experts are recommending that people get trained on how to use masks…

I’ll admit that masks probably lessen the exposure.  But they don’t offer the protection that most people believe that they do…

Edited August 19, 2021 by mikbone

[estradling75]

1 minute ago, mikbone said:

I’ll admit that masks probably lessen the exposure.  But they don’t offer the protection that most people believe that they do…

And that is the big kicker isn't it...   What do people mean when they say Mask are/aren't effective?     When we talk deadly viruses we naturally want 100% or 99.999% or other really high percentage of effectiveness.  The mask that most people wear simply can not do that.   But maybe they can do 40% or 50%.  Those are not good odds, but they are not nothing thus could be said to be effective to a certain degree.

 

 

[Grunt]

3 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

And that is the big kicker isn't it...   What do people mean when they say Mask are/aren't effective?     When we talk deadly viruses we naturally want 100% or 99.999% or other really high percentage of effectiveness.  The mask that most people wear simply can not do that.   But maybe they can do 40% or 50%.  Those are not good odds, but they are not nothing thus could be said to be effective to a certain degree.

 

 

I don't see what the big deal is.   If you want a mask, wear it.  If you don't, then don't.

[LDSGator]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

Heh.  I love V for Vendetta, and need to watch it again.  That said, yeah, Gator's right.

And he should know - this is a picture from his high school year book:

Dude, this hits waaaaaaaaaaaaay too close to home. Who gave you my yearbook? I thought I destroyed those! Was it LadyGator??? 

[estradling75]

39 minutes ago, Grunt said:

I don't see what the big deal is.   If you want a mask, wear it.  If you don't, then don't.

To make good choices requires having good information.  For example if I think that masks are in the high 90s in effectiveness I would make a different choice then if I think they are only in the low 20s.

But we don't get that information.. .we get sound bites...   Masks are good/effective... or bad/ineffective...  That means we aren't making choices based on good information, but rather feelings and gut reactions. 

[Grunt]

9 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

To make good choices requires having good information.  For example if I think that masks are in the high 90s in effectiveness I would make a different choice then if I think they are only in the low 20s.

But we don't get that information.. .we get sound bites...   Masks are good/effective... or bad/ineffective...  That means we aren't making choices based on good information, but rather feelings and gut reactions. 

I 100% agree, but don't know how we can fix that without personal effort, nor do I believe that really changes the intent of my post.

[dprh]

1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

And that is the big kicker isn't it...   What do people mean when they say Mask are/aren't effective?     When we talk deadly viruses we naturally want 100% or 99.999% or other really high percentage of effectiveness.  The mask that most people wear simply can not do that.   But maybe they can do 40% or 50%.  Those are not good odds, but they are not nothing thus could be said to be effective to a certain degree.

I figure all the %'s start to add (multiple?) up.  If I'm being physically distant 70% more than normal, and the mask blocks 50% of particles, and the vaccine is 80% effective.  (And I'm just making up all these numbers as an example  )  Then my overall exposure and risk drops much more than what is offered by any one method.

[mirkwood]

1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

Dude, this hits waaaaaaaaaaaaay too close to home. Who gave you my yearbook? I thought I destroyed those! Was it LadyGator??? 

Slowly and sheepishly raises hand.

[LDSGator]

3 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

Slowly and sheepishly raises hand.

Lol. That’s it, I’m telling everyone about that dirty little secret that only you, I, and a certain woman of questionable morals knows. I’m never allowing you to go to Vegas again. 

[JohnsonJones]

4 hours ago, mikbone said:

Yup but their conclusion is flawed.  Because the COVID virus is still smaller than the N95 pores.  And everyone is using cloth & paper masks instead of N95 masks.

And no one knows how to use masks properly.  Or if they do know, they don’t do it.

I was professionally fitted for an N95 mask.  The attempt took 15 minutes.  The technician never could get an acceptable seal trying over and over again and signed me off with a passing seal anyway.  Which she said she almost has to do with everyone.  And I have been using masks for 20 years as a surgeon.

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2018-130/pdfs/2018-130.pdf

The above is the CDC document about N95 mask seal check test and the importance of having the test done and using the mask correctly.  I wonder why no medical experts are recommending that people get trained on how to use masks…

I’ll admit that masks probably lessen the exposure.  But they don’t offer the protection that most people believe that they do…

Is it?  I'm not a doctor, nor medical personnel, but I do know a tiny bit about academic research...

In a parallel idea...

Wearing Seatbelts actually do NOT prevent Car Accidents.  In fact, there are MANY Car Accidents each year that are caused by people wearing Seat Belts.

Furthermore, many people are INJURED wearing Seat Belts each year.  A LARGE number of people wearing seatbelts are injured when they get into car accidents.

So...should the argument be that we should not wear seat belts when driving because they are not going to be an absolute stop at getting injured or even killed if you get in a car accident?

Returning to the article that you posted previously (not the one above, the one from ncbi...

How much of it did you read?  It is inconclusive on whether face masks are effective or not.  Part of the problem is it appears they did NO ACTUAL RESEARCH on the matter in a physical experiment that could be replicated.  Instead, the methodology centered around searching the PubMed Journal and Google Scholar for effects regarding face masks.  There was also a search in other sources and papers, but no actual experimentation from what I could tell or see.

Was this a serious paper or was it done by undergraduates?

Going over their citations (of which one would expect there would be a massive overwhelming amount of information considering their claims) they appear to have 13 citations f which none are as clear as their hypothesis should have them considering the topic.

They only have 26 references listed (27 with adjoining tables) which is rather small considering that their entire research methodology is reliant upon what those references being presented.  I have first Year's that have more references listed in their papers than what is listed in this one (but then, it could be that my field requires MORE references in general than others when building evidence).

Looking for peer reviews I found this commentary listed on Oxford Academic which is somewhat humorous in it's statements, and though I'm not sure if they are serious or not, I get the impression they are being sarcastic regarding the actual paper you listed...

Naked Surgeons, the debate about what to wear in the operating room?

As they progress it get's crazier and crazier, from asking why just stop at masks...

We can see papers that say wearing clothes, garments, gloves, and other protective gear may cause us to shed more skin, so instead perhaps the surgeons should now start operating in the nude.

Furthermore, why wear things over the hair...we should just let it flow free in the operating room..

Why wear any protective gear at all, afterall, maybe the past 100 years of medical care would have been better if we didn't wash our hands, gear up and treat patients in that manner, and instead just continue to do as our forbears did...afterall...the death rate from operations wasn't THAT bad...now was it?

Bringing that sarcasm a little further than what the paper brings up, one could use it to food preparation.  Woman all over the world prepare meals at home without hairnets, gloves, or at times washing their hands.  I cannot tell the number of times I've found hair in my food after my wife has prepared it...and I must admit...I'm still alive.  Perhaps, we should no longer ask those preparing food in restuarants to wash their hands after using the restroom or wash their hands at all, not require hair nets, or other things...afterall...perhaps it is all with our imaginations on how protective gear may or may not help us.  Going off searches of papers on the internet it seems that the evidence is inconclusive on how much this protective gear actually helps prevent the spread of disease or other things...so perhaps we would all be better and safer to stop requiring it?

Becoming more serious again...

I am not a doctor, not medical personnel.  I cannot say for certain how or what or whether masks can help or not from my own educational expertise.  I know that it SEEMS that many in the medical field are suggesting we wear them, and what they say makes sense to me (If you spray aerosolized material, even if it is through a cloth mesh, the spray actually doesn't go as far, which is something you can do yourself when spraying houses down or other items for wasps, insects, and other critters that are unpleasant), and combining masks with social distancing makes sense to me if that is the idea behind it, but as I said...I'm no doctor.

Even more relevant currently I would think though, and the focus of the thread currently is more of one of obedience than that of scientific theorem.  It has been suggested that the prophet and First Presidency have advocated for us to wear masks and be vaccinated (and indeed, I was one of those who were advocating for this view of their statements much earlier this year).  In the matters of importance, we must ask do we follow them, or do we not, and if not, why not?

Of course, if we want to return to the facetious return of the statements above once again, we would also ask (and being somewhat sarcastic here, though I know there are those who would feel this is actually a valid response) how far do we take it?  If he asks us to jump off a thousand foot cliff...do we do so knowing we would likely die?  If we would do something like that how do we differ from those in a cult that drink the kool aid from those who do not? 

Which one could surmise (being more serious here again) is why we look for confirmation of the spirit.  We look to see if the Spirit confirms to us truth.  In the end though, MY PERSONAL belief is that even at times when we may not be able to discern the spirit confirming something (and there have been times of this, and I have voiced such concerns at times) is the right course of action or true, if we FOLLOW the PROPHET and their leadership, we will not go astray.  Does that mean I'm more of a blind cult follower...Perhaps.  I DO grumble and murmur at times (which is a sin in and of itself) as these very boards could probably show, but in the end, I DO as the PROPHET has asked us to do and as the Church leadership has asked us to do, or at least try my best.

So, it may be that I'm listed in those blind cult followers that do what their leaders tell them to do...which wraps my fate in with the Prophet and others I suppose at the end of the day. 

That said, MY WAY may not be YOUR WAY or anyone else's way.  We all have choices to make and to try to make the best choices we each can determine is the best course of action for ourselves.  I'm not in your shoes, and it may be that your decisions are the best choices for you to make, and others are theirs making the best choice and choosing the best path for themselves.

[mikbone]

10 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Is it?  I'm not a doctor, nor medical personnel, but I do know a tiny bit about academic research...

You actually read the doc.  Gold Star!  I link lots of stuff in my posts and try to keep them short and sweet in order to avoid the following.

1) I don't wear seat belts.  I might have worn them if it wasn't for legislation.  But I have seen so many vegetables in ICUs that have survived MVAs that I am willing to take my chances.  My truck has airbags, although that has nothing to do with why I bought the truck.  I have seen some nasty injuries from airbags as well...

Of note, I pole-valuted thru high school and college.  It was a dangerous activity.  It paid for my college tuition.  And when my twin brother sustained a nasty open tibia/fibula fracture from a 15' fall.  He required a washout and plating from a wonderful and brilliant Zimbabwe national surgeon practicing in Texas.  The experience was bad for my twin but initiated me into my current profession.  He went on to vault in college as well btw. 

2) I read the whole article concerning the research on wearing masks in surgery.  Yes! you are correct there is almost no research on why we should wear masks in surgery.  It is taken as common knowledge, thus there are no real studies on why or even if we should wear masks in surgery.  The study is what we call a systematic review of Level-III studies.  And it was serious.  Do you need to wear a mask when doing a colonoscopy?  Nope unless you are a sloppy surgery and need to protect yourself from flying debris.  Do I need to wear a mask when doing a knee scope or carpal tunnel syndrome?  Probably not.  Do I wear a mask when doing joint replacements?  No, I wear what we call a surgical space suit.  In many countries they do surgery without masks - their infection rates are similar to ours.  I am under the belief that surgeon and sterile technique are probably more important.  I have had multiple times when I have been splashed in the face or have had a glove tear and I have been exposed to patient blood (including HIV+ patients).  It happens.  About a decade ago, the Orthopaedic Academy tested 6,000 surgeons who showed up to the yearly conference for HIV.  Findings - only 2 of the surgeons tested positive both of whom had alternative lifestyles.

3) The link you referenced is due to bouffant scrub hats being cited as safer than Surgical skull caps.  Which is ridiculous.  I hate bouffants.  I have a colleague who demands that all his surgical scrubs wear foot booties and then wrap the top with tape to prevent pubic hair from entering into his patient's wounds.  Not joking.  

4) Yes food handlers are a concern.  We can thank Upton Sinclar's The Jungle for some standards.  My wife cooks without any protective gear never had any of her hair in my food.  My grandma sends Chex mix in the mail every Christmas as a gift - last few years we just throw it directly in the trash as the amount of hair is amazing.  I have taken care of patients with active infections of hepatitis and AIDS that are butchers at the local butcher store.  You don't really want to know the medical history of your food handlers.  And I am always courteous to waitresses as I have seen what happens when patrons are rude and request that their food be taken back and prepared correctly.

5) When I do wear a mask in surgery, I have to tape the top of the mask portion to prevent condensation build-up on my glasses.  If you don't wear the mask correctly (with a true seal), aerosolized material will just vent out the sides, top, and bottom.  How far does the aerosolized material go? I don't know.  But it is aerosolized and can float around depending upon ventilation, drafts, wind currents, etc.

6) This thread is not about obedience to the First Presidency Message on COVID-19.  It is about requiring a COVID-19 Vaccine.  Have I had the vaccine? No.  Will I get it? Probably.  If I don't get the vaccine, I have been notified that I will lose my livelihood.  I have until November 1st to have the initial shot and a booster.  Why is the CDC requiring a booster only 8 months after receiving the initial vaccine?  Likely because the vaccines are garbage.  Ten years from now when we have all the data, and the retrospective studies have been done, we will know how we mucked up this pandemic.  

Edited August 20, 2021 by mikbone

[Traveler]

One thing has bothered me through this whole pandemic thing and perhaps @mikbone with some expertise can provide some clarity.  Why is the homeless population seeming untouched?  I would think that they would be quite vulnerable accounting for their poor living habits and health conditions; thus somewhat of a super spreader in society.   In addition I wonder if they are interested in the vaccine or mask wearing since in general this population is somewhat antisocial and anti-authority.    The only thing I hear about the homeless population is that they are growing - particularly in blue states.  Homelessness seems to be a demographic missing from the abundance of COVID information - "abundance" used with some sarcasm in this particular reference.

 

The Traveler  

[LDSGator]

[NeuroTypical]

14 hours ago, Traveler said:

Why is the homeless population seeming untouched?  
…

The only thing I hear about the homeless population is that they are growing

I think I see the problem. Do you think because you are not hearing about some thing in the news means it doesn’t exist?

Here is something to consider: Nobody is hearing about what COVID is doing to the homeless, because such news neither hurts nor helps any particular political party. It can be used as neither a club against an opposing candidate, nor as a way to get votes for your candidate.

Nor does the plight of the homeless serve hospitals in gaining funding.  In fact, the less you talk about the icky undesirables, the better your chances at retaining staff and attracting new applicants.
 

The reason you’re not hearing about the homeless, is because hearing about it would forward nobodies agenda. This is an indictment on society in general.

I bet if you look, you can find church organizations talking about it here and there. Because serving the poor and the needy, does forward a churches organization. At least one would hope.

[LDSGator]

22 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I think I see the problem. Do you think because you are not hearing about some thing in the news means it doesn’t exist?

Here is something to consider: Nobody is hearing about what COVID is doing to the homeless, because such news neither hurts nor helps any particular political party. It can be used as neither a club against an opposing candidate, nor as a way to get votes for your candidate.

Nor does the plight of the homeless serve hospitals in gaining funding.  In fact, the less you talk about the icky undesirables, the better your chances at retaining staff and attracting new applicants.
 

The reason you’re not hearing about the homeless, is because hearing about it would forward nobodies agenda. This is an indictment on society in general.

I bet if you look, you can find church organizations talking about it here and there. Because serving the poor and the needy, does forward a churches organization. At least one would hope.

Also, because the homeless move frequently in search of food, work and cheap housing, (not an insult, descriptive) it’s hard to get an accurate assessment of their health and behavior. 

Edited August 21, 2021 by LDSGator

[mikbone]

15 hours ago, Traveler said:

One thing has bothered me through this whole pandemic thing and perhaps @mikbone with some expertise can provide some clarity.  Why is the homeless population seeming untouched?  I would think that they would be quite vulnerable accounting for their poor living habits and health conditions; thus somewhat of a super spreader in society.   In addition I wonder if they are interested in the vaccine or mask wearing since in general this population is somewhat antisocial and anti-authority.    The only thing I hear about the homeless population is that they are growing - particularly in blue states.  Homelessness seems to be a demographic missing from the abundance of COVID information - "abundance" used with some sarcasm in this particular reference.

 

The Traveler  

The homeless are huge consumers of health care.  I have done many surgical cases for homeless patients.  We call it "working for Jesus."  Most of the homeless in our country are homeless by choice, and the vast majority have mental illness (schizophrenia is prevalent) and substance abuse.  

The homeless are also horrible at follow-up, which makes them a challenge for medical research.  

[Still_Small_Voice]

On 8/19/2021 at 5:20 PM, mikbone said:

 I have until November 1st to have the initial shot and a booster.  Why is the CDC requiring a booster only 8 months after receiving the initial vaccine?  Likely because the vaccines are garbage.  Ten years from now when we have all the data, and the retrospective studies have been done, we will know how we mucked up this pandemic.  

They are not allowing you to get the Johnson & Johnson vaccine?  That is the one I got. 

If a booster shot comes out for Wuhan coronavirus likely I do not think I will get it.

[Ironhold]

23 hours ago, LDSGator said:

A few days ago, comic book writer Tom King went on a rant on social media.

In the "Watchmen" comic, there's a dramatic scene where masked hero Rorschach removes his mask as part of a plea to Doctor Manhattan; former hero Ozymandias outright confessed to crimes against humanity, and Rorschach wants Doctor Manhattan's help in exposing what happened. It ends with Doctor Manhattan killing Rorschach because he, too, feels that what Ozymandias did was for the greater good. 

King was, if he's to be believed, at a comic convention when he saw someone in a Rorschach costume unmask, likely re-enacting this scene. King freaked out and caused enough of a spectacle that the convention staff were forced to have security eject the costume guy from the venue. King then went on a tirade on social media, and a number of sycophants are agreeing with what he did and echoing similar sentiments that people who don't mask up and people who aren't vaccinated need to be forced out of society. A few were all but demanding that the military go house-to-house and enforce vaccinations. 

This is the kind of thing that has people worked up, the knowledge that everyone from everyday peeps to various celebrities are *that* ready and eager to see those who they disagree with as sub-human and start removing their rights. 

[JohnsonJones]

9 hours ago, Ironhold said:

A few days ago, comic book writer Tom King went on a rant on social media.

In the "Watchmen" comic, there's a dramatic scene where masked hero Rorschach removes his mask as part of a plea to Doctor Manhattan; former hero Ozymandias outright confessed to crimes against humanity, and Rorschach wants Doctor Manhattan's help in exposing what happened. It ends with Doctor Manhattan killing Rorschach because he, too, feels that what Ozymandias did was for the greater good. 

King was, if he's to be believed, at a comic convention when he saw someone in a Rorschach costume unmask, likely re-enacting this scene. King freaked out and caused enough of a spectacle that the convention staff were forced to have security eject the costume guy from the venue. King then went on a tirade on social media, and a number of sycophants are agreeing with what he did and echoing similar sentiments that people who don't mask up and people who aren't vaccinated need to be forced out of society. A few were all but demanding that the military go house-to-house and enforce vaccinations. 

This is the kind of thing that has people worked up, the knowledge that everyone from everyday peeps to various celebrities are *that* ready and eager to see those who they disagree with as sub-human and start removing their rights. 

Allegorically speaking (as the comic book story you told I assume is allegorical in nature)...

Most who want others to mask up don't want to go house to house to enforce such things...

They just want people to zip up their pants in public.

They aren't too happy when someone without underwear wants to flaunt it all out, even when asked about public decency.  They are even less impressed when the individuals who refuse to zip it up are also not accustomed to what a public restroom is.

Finally, what is the most annoying is when they are asked to wear rainwear over their own clothes in order to protect those who refuse to zip it up...placing the heavier burden on those who have been zipping up and using the restroom nicely all along than those who refuse the more simpler method of zipping up their pants.

It was one thing when we were all apes and went unclothed...however, with the invention of modern restrooms and how we now wear clothes for common decency, people are getting tired of the entire thing and seeing those that continue to deny zipping up their pants and using the restrooms instead of wherever they wish, it's made tempers at time in short order on both sides.

Allegorically speaking of course.

Non-allergorically speaking...while zipping up one's pants is unlikely to cause serious disease or death in anyone...Covid19 has been shown to be a public hazard on a much more dangerous scale...which dress code (zipped up pants or shorts in public...or wearing a mask) is of more concern probably could be of irony if one actually debated the merits of each.

Edited August 22, 2021 by JohnsonJones

[NeuroTypical]

On 8/19/2021 at 5:20 PM, mikbone said:

Why is the CDC requiring a booster only 8 months after receiving the initial vaccine?  Likely because the vaccines are garbage.  

Yeah, other than the "make you less likely to catch COVID, and if you do, make you ~288 times less likely to have a serious negative impact" thing, it's pretty much a total failure.  

Why the booster?  Apparently because our antibodies against the thing don't last longer.  It's a shame.  

(Full disclosure - one of these statements is sarcasm, the other one is being serious.  Gold star if folks can tell which is which.)

[dprh]

15 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Yeah, other than the "make you less likely to catch COVID, and if you do, make you ~288 times less likely to have a serious negative impact" thing, it's pretty much a total failure.  

Why the booster?  Apparently because our antibodies against the thing don't last longer.  It's a shame.  

(Full disclosure - one of these statements is sarcasm, the other one is being serious.  Gold star if folks can tell which is which.)

Also, from what I understand, flu shots are only effective for about 6 months.  That's why they like to give them out in the fall, so they last through the winter, into spring.  I wouldn't be surprised if an annual COVID shot becomes normal.

[Ironhold]

16 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Allegorically speaking (as the comic book story you told I assume is allegorical in nature)...

Most who want others to mask up don't want to go house to house to enforce such things...

They just want people to zip up their pants in public.

They aren't too happy when someone without underwear wants to flaunt it all out, even when asked about public decency.  They are even less impressed when the individuals who refuse to zip it up are also not accustomed to what a public restroom is.

Finally, what is the most annoying is when they are asked to wear rainwear over their own clothes in order to protect those who refuse to zip it up...placing the heavier burden on those who have been zipping up and using the restroom nicely all along than those who refuse the more simpler method of zipping up their pants.

It was one thing when we were all apes and went unclothed...however, with the invention of modern restrooms and how we now wear clothes for common decency, people are getting tired of the entire thing and seeing those that continue to deny zipping up their pants and using the restrooms instead of wherever they wish, it's made tempers at time in short order on both sides.

Allegorically speaking of course.

Non-allergorically speaking...while zipping up one's pants is unlikely to cause serious disease or death in anyone...Covid19 has been shown to be a public hazard on a much more dangerous scale...which dress code (zipped up pants or shorts in public...or wearing a mask) is of more concern probably could be of irony if one actually debated the merits of each.

After enough people - including the CEO of indie publisher Alterna Comics - called King out on the matter, he was forced to modify the story. 

Now King is saying that the person in costume was in line and didn't have his mask on. When King saw that he didn't have his mask on, he flipped out and yelled at him to mask up. When the person fumbled with their mask (which could well have gotten crumpled up if it had been in their pocket long enough), King straight-up exploded on him. And basically, since it was the Rorschach character, King just *assumed* the person was "alt-right" without knowing anything more about them. 

This was enough of an incident that the venue basically chose to sacrifice the person to appease King, throwing them out completely. 

Suffice to say that King is now persona non grata among much of the comic industry, particularly a large swath of readers. 

[mirkwood]

Just heard back today from my wife's doctor.  She wants a test done for anti-gens in a year.  If they are low she recommends the vaccine.  If they are not, she says we are immune.