Requiring a COVID-19 Vaccine (shot/s)


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Just now, LDSGator said:

Thanks. I’m not picking on you bro, it’s just a major pet peeve of mine when people throw around comparisons and terms like “Nazi”. I find it incredibly insulting to their victims. 

I understand your sentiment, and I also find some Nazi comparisons distasteful for the same reason.

But I believe the greater disrespect to the victims would be to allow similar government policies and movements to occur again without calling them out and opposing such actions. That's where I am coming from on this.

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3 minutes ago, clwnuke said:

But I believe the greater disrespect to the victims would be to allow similar government policies and movements to occur again without calling them out and opposing such actions. That's where I am coming from on this.

Understand, I just see it very differently. To be clear, I do not think you are dismissing or downplaying the horrors their victims went through. 

Edited by LDSGator
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28 minutes ago, clwnuke said:

So I want to be sure I understand, unless six million people dying via genocide are involved, you do not believe any parallels can be drawn from the rise of the National Socialist German Workers Party? We can't look at their step-by-step rise to power from 1920 to 1933

No, you don't understand.  Yes, there are some parallels.  Yes, we can look at the step-by-step rise to power and discuss those parallels.  

But that's not what you were doing, now was it.  

You started with just throwing out the schoolyard-namecallingly immature phrase "Vazi authorities".   As if your point had already been made, because you tossed out the insult.  That's different than a discussion about troubling trends that we've seen before in history.  Don't you think?

When called on the phrase, you doubled down with this:

"Once those threats started, Vazi authorities became an accurate description IMHO. I would use something much stronger against those that have suggested that the unvaccinated be rounded up and shot (pun?)."

Again, you weren't discussing step-by-step parallels, you were claiming certain people here, today, deserved an even worse appellation.  And drew an analogy, not with the step-by-step rise-to-power Nazis of 1933, but with the in-power Nazis who were rounding up and shooting people.

That makes you that guy.  Such horrible tactics lose you the discussion before you even started with your reasoning and points.   That is what I want you to understand.  Namecalling only persuades or convinces people that it's not worth their time listening to you.  Kind of like the poisoning the well fallacy, except instead of attacking something someone is about to say, you're holding up a strawman as if they were already the most extreme version of horrible imaginable.

 

So again, you wanna hurl schoolyard insults and not be taken seriously by anybody?  Just keep tossing around immature insults.  If you want to actually make a difference, perhaps consider starting with your latest posts.

Have I clarified enough so you understand?

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21 hours ago, beefche said:

I realize that those in power see this as a power grab. But I'm curious about those who don't have power--my fellow voters, everyday people--who insist that vax should be mandated/forced and that people should lose jobs, freedoms, etc. If the virus is a threat to the lives of people so vax should be mandated, then how is it that someone off meds and could be a danger to self/others not be mandated to take meds? How is that explained? 

I feel similar to it as masks and social distancing.  Private Property (and that includes companies) and their owners SHOULD BE FREE enough (and legally they are, but it was not enacted) to mandate a dress code and other rules in their stores, buildings, and other locations and if people VIOLATE or DO NOT FOLLOW their requirements and refuse to then those people should be arrested and fined just like they would be when they trespass anywhere else.

Too many people have decided that only they should be allowed to have freedom and everyone else's freedom should be abridged for them. 

No shoes, no shirt, no service...is a dress code that's been around for a while in the US. 

Wearing a mask has actually been part of a dress code in some parts of the world prior to Covid-19, especially as a courtesy if one is sick or other reasons in some nations.  It actually is NOT a new introduction of a type of dress code, though it is in the US.

People fighting over others requesting a dress code or other requirements on private businesses and disallowing others their freedom to ask people to do certain things on their private property IS abridging others freedoms.  That they do not see this...is mind boggling.

People SHOULD be allowed to sue someone else if they kill their spouse or loved one.  If you took no precautions and killed a family member by giving them Covid-19 by your carelessness, a LAWSUIT should be allowed (this is NOT criminal charges, though most times for other things this would occur if you killed a family member, I'm not going that far, but people SHOULD BE allowed to sue just like they can for any other thing you do to them) and taken seriously against those who did things like this.  THAT would be allowing others a freedom.

It is funny that so many talk about freedom and how theirs is being repressed but in reality are VERY happy to repress other's freedoms.

I think it is good to live in a nation where we have the freedom to choose, but we should NOT be able to trump the freedom of everyone else because of the selfish desires to ONLY have freedom for one individual and not everyone else.

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2 hours ago, FunkyTown said:

I meant it was trivially true. As in, "It's true, but it's simplistic and obtained with little effort." - Yes, we should discuss it. But that doesn't suggest whether it's true or not.

 

The second is more interesting. A moral imperative isn't a moral imperative if it is imposed by outside forces. That isn't true, and you know it isn't true. You aren't advocating the removal of murder laws, despite those being imposed by outside forces. You aren't advocating the removal of rape laws, despite those being imposed by outside forces. You aren't advocating the removal of intellectual property laws, despite those being imposed by outside forces.

 

You're advocating a specific application of that particular idea, and only as it applies to supporting something you already support. That is an example of 'motivated rationality'.

Since we've gone head first into Godwin in this thread...

IT IS interesting that there is a small connection between NAZI's and vaccinations.  In fact, it may be a little stronger than people actually expect.  There is a story where actions against vaccination and blaming those who were not vaccinated or were vaccinated or took medications or spread disease all came together in a small way to influence the NAZI's and their later actions.

Anti vaccination Germany anti semitism

Quote

When cholera reemerged with full force in Hamburg in the late 19th century, local officials—following the advice of the scientists Robert Koch and Max von Pettenkofer—proposed a bill of public-health regulations such as school closures, disinfection of waterways, and quarantine. This led to a national uproar among constituents who saw state-enforced health measures as a threat to the German economy—and this time an ad hoc coalition joined together to oppose such measures. The German National Economic Association argued that the bill interfered with economic trade and personal freedom. But the opposition was as much about ethnicity as economics.

Denying the need for public-health measures, including vaccination, slipped into tacitly implying that the disease would carry off the Jewish and the poor. Sometimes the calculation was explicit. A monthly magazine distributed by the German physician Gustav Jäger argued that the cholera epidemic would remove “weaklings” from the “better classes” of society. These words were code for the poor and for ethnic minorities, and not only do they link contagion to ableism, but they deny members of ethnic minority groups their humanity.

This history has caused some dissension and problems in Germany presently in relation to COVID-19 as well as both sides bring it up...though it really isn't a reflection of the US situation.

It IS interesting that recently there has been a small movement among conservatives to blame the spread of the virus on foreigners coming into the US across the border illegally and such things which COULD be seen as a shadow of what occurred in Germany...IF we are going that direction...but hopefully we are not traveling in that same direction yet.  In a similar manner I've heard others say that those who catch and die from Covid would have died anyways, which is reminiscent of the above a little, and as an older individual, slightly disturbing to hear others so willing to write me off if I die of something preventable, but that's more of a personal thing I find disturbing than a public thing.

Edited by JohnsonJones
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One other item if we go further into the issue of the Holocaust.  This actually was a large issue in some parts of Europe recently, though most media was still focused on the US's situation (and why...when one is overseas?  I suppose it's easier to focus on another nations troubles than what is happening closer to home?).

I found an article with an actual Holocaust survivor's thoughts which is interesting to bring out on this subject I suppose.  They had an interesting slant to it regarding France...

I am not endorsing this view, but I find it interesting that a Holocaust survivor would say this...

Anger as French vaccine rule protestors draw Nazi Era Comparison

Quote

"You can’t imagine how much that upset me. This comparison is hateful. We must all rise up against this ignominy,” Holocaust survivor Joseph Szwarc, 94, said on Sunday during a ceremony commemorating victims of antisemitic and racist acts by the French state, which collaborated with Adolf Hitler’s regime.

“I wore the star, I know what that is, I still have it in my flesh,” Szwarc, who was deported from France by the Nazis, said with tears in his eyes.

“It is everyone’s duty to not allow this outrageous, antisemitic, racist wave to pass over us."

 

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Just to keep it real,

Folks who believe in and support the constitution of the United States, as a divinely inspired document worth protecting and preserving, have a series of hoops to jump through before yellin' about Nazis.  (I'm not saying many/most of these hoops can't be jumped through, or that there's nothing to be concerned about.  I'm just trying to keep it real.)

- The constitution takes some powers for the federal government, and leaves all other powers to "to the States respectively, or to the people".

- The states, counties, parishes, cities, and towns, all have governing documents, which the states/people came up with and voted into effect.  State constitutions, county charters, city codes and ordinances, stuff like that.

- Just about every state talks about matters of public health, and government powers in regards to them.  Laws on the books, governor's public health orders, county commission orders, etc.

- Yes, in a crapton of places throughout the US, it's totally and perfectly legal for this or that government entity to issue this or that emergency health order, which forces citizens to comply under the penalty of law with whatever goes into writing.

 

So yeah, our news is full of this or that govt organization or official, tweeting celebrity, CEO of a company, national organization, etc, going too far.  Talking about stuff that shouldn't fly.  Claiming authority they don't have.  Trying to infringe on rights in ways outside of the structure put in place that a govt must follow in order to infringe on it's citizen's rights.  The news is also full of fools, ignorant people, and agenda driven people, claiming these unlawful usurpings are lawful and good.  And demonizing them what disagree.  And all that.  That's always happening, was going on long before COVID, and needs to be fought as much today as it ever was.

But when it comes down to this or that order impacting you and yours directly, do you actually know enough to say whether the order is lawful or not?

You should at least know that, before starting to toss around comparisons to Nazis.  

IMO.

 

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@JohnsonJones A great set of articles and thoughts on the deep feelings related to this issue.

After reading those, I searched for more and found several. What was interesting to me was the divide - the pro-vaccine arguing that the comparison is wrong, and the anti-vaccine arguing that the comparison is real.

Maybe the issue is that the persecuted (real or perceived) and the persecutors always see the issue differently?

But IMHO here's the kicker, once all the mandates are in place, and the unvaccinated are all forced to stay in tents and isolated camps in Nevada because they lost their jobs and had to sell their homes, and they aren't allowed in stores, or hospitals because their health insurance is being denied, and they can't go to BYU football games, and their internet connections are taken away to prevent them from spreading accurate "misinformation" - the vaccinated majority will likely assume that they are now safer and will act with less regard for Covid safety - so the situation will get worse rather than better. I guess we will see??

 

 

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11 hours ago, LDSGator said:

Yes, it is unfair. Honestly? It walks  right up to the point of delusion. It’s certainly cruel, because it downplays the horror holocaust victims went through. So there’s that. 

Again, Jews were treated much, much, much worse than people who choose not to get the shot. When people who choose not to get the shot are rounded up and put into gas chambers, than you can make the comparison. Until then, it’s just entitled whining. 

You're entitled to seeing it that way, but to me this is akin to taking the position that when a gunman walks onto a campus with loaded weapons we can't draw parallels from previous shootings until after people have become victims and are shot down. It makes more sense to me to recognize troubling indicators and take steps to prevent history from repeating itself as opposed to claiming there is no way a comparison should be made until an equal or greater cataclysm has taken place.

It isn't at all suggesting that the holocaust victims didn't suffer immensely, nor diminish their stories. It is simply a comparison of how people were manipulated into going along with atrocities in relatively recent history to how similar tactics are being used now. Is it entitled whining to point out to a friend that her partner is using manipulative tactics that suggest he's an abuser and she should get out of the relationship before things get worse? Does it minimize other victims of abusive partners? No. It simply points out key indicators worth knowing to avoid that cycle being repeated if the warning is heeded.

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11 hours ago, SpiritDragon said:

isn't at all suggesting that the holocaust victims didn't suffer immensely, nor diminish their stories.

That’s actually exactly what it does. It’s so insulting to people who died due to Nazism that it’s actually a little ridiculous.
 

It’s why people don’t take message boards and online forums seriously.  

Edited by LDSGator
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In other news, daughter and I both got flulike symptoms after a ward BBQ 2 weeks ago.  We've both went to the local testing site in the mall parking lot, and both tested negative.  As I reported my symptoms to the phase III trial people, I've never seen someone so downhearted that I didn't go in to them first so they could see my sputum and feel my glands.  They're nice people there.  A special blend of motherly and scienc-ey.  

They tell me I'll get my booster end of the month - a year and a month from my original 2nd dose.

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On 9/2/2021 at 8:36 AM, FunkyTown said:

So if it was supported by the science, you would be in favor of forced vaccinations? If I could show evidence that, say, vaccinated people were less likely to pass on COVID and less likely to develop symptoms in the first place you would say, "Break put the lawbooks, because everyone should be forced to take it"?

This is a most interesting problem that I personally believe that the method for solution is more important than the solution.    Allow me to explain.  As near as I can determine the only reason to pass any particular law (mandate) is so one segment of the population can force their moral implications on another segment of the population that disagrees.  This implies that laws are in essence morals in which there is some alternate leaning.  It is obvious why there are no laws that define the universal gravitational constant or the value of pi.  It is because there is no serious disagreement. 

The only time there needs to be a law is when one segment of the population wants something defined and an additional segment refuses to conform.  As a result human history is all about those that assume the power to implement their particular moral code as official law.  Those that think morals should not or cannot be legislated are (in my mind) completely out of touch with reality.  As we come to realize this problem with how laws are defined we can come to understand why human laws are both corrupt and inefficient at the very core.  

We make every effort to appear that whatever morals we translate into law are "just".  We assume that justice is a most noble exploit so we attempt to justify the justice of our morals with logic but the reality appears to me that when we cannot logically justify our morals that we will resort to what ever powers are available to use to force others to accept our morals.  This has left me with the impression that the method we employ to define our morals and laws are actually more important than the morals and laws in and of themselves.  As much as I personally find myself at odds with the majority concepts - I have no suggestion for any better determination than what the majority  favors.  In short as bad as the majority opinion and morals are - every other possibility available to us mortals has always turned out to be much worse.  As so we even define science as the majority opinion of scientist - which BTW has been proven wrong many times.  But we are rather stuck with such anyway.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
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3 hours ago, LDSGator said:

Glad you’ll be getting the booster soon 

If I were to voice my honest opinion - I believe there are many and much more important "things" for individual and social good health than getting the booster as soon as possible.

 

The Traveler

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3 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

In other news, daughter and I both got flulike symptoms after a ward BBQ 2 weeks ago.  We've both went to the local testing site in the mall parking lot, and both tested negative.  As I reported my symptoms to the phase III trial people, I've never seen someone so downhearted that I didn't go in to them first so they could see my sputum and feel my glands.  They're nice people there.  A special blend of motherly and scienc-ey.  

They tell me I'll get my booster end of the month - a year and a month from my original 2nd dose.

Our Stake and Ward have been tracking new Covid cases to help us decide on church meeting policy. At least 50% of the cases with symptoms have tested negative, and in some families where everyone had the same symptoms we have seen a mix of positives and negatives.

The CDC has already withdrawn one Covid test https://www.cdc.gov/csels/dls/locs/2021/07-21-2021-lab-alert-Changes_CDC_RT-PCR_SARS-CoV-2_Testing_1.html because the accuracy turned out to be so bad. There may be more in the future.

Just a Note: the withdrawn test was the one used to determine the effectiveness of the current vaccines in their trials. Hope that builds your confidence levels in the recent FDA approval :)

Edited by clwnuke
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6 minutes ago, Traveler said:

If I were to voice my honest opinion - I believe there are many and much more important "things" for individual and social good health than getting the booster as soon as possible.

 

The Traveler

That’s fine, you are entitled to your opinion. 
 

You are not entitled to your own science. 

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7 hours ago, LDSGator said:

That’s actually exactly what it does. It’s so insulting to people who died due to Nazism that it’s actually a little ridiculous.
 

It’s why people don’t take message boards and online forums seriously.  

I welcome an explanation of how pointing out similarities for the purpose of learning from history is insulting to prior victims. Instead of simply doubling down into a four-year-old-fit going back and forth between yes it does, no it doesn't, who can yell louder as your continued assertion that it's just so absurd comes across as, I truly welcome some actual dialogue to help me see how what you claim is so.

Gavin Debecker has an interesting book called the gift of fear that is all about recognizing pre-incident indicators that have been recognized by reverse engineering the tell tale signs that were found to occur prior to sexual assaults. By teaching people about these indicators so they can avoid being victims of sexual assault, I can't begin to fathom how that is conflated to saying that the previous victims' experiences don't matter or the suffering wasn't real. It would seem a greater travesty to recognize tactics used by criminals and not bother to point them out keeping a higher proportion of new victims always available because no one could bother to learn from history and share the help.

Now perhaps there is some inflammatory rhetoric you've experienced elsewhere in regards to this that you are bringing to this discussion, but I feel I've been nothing but respectful in pointing out commonalities of indicators (in this case used by government to make a section of the population into "deplorables", which is a requisite step for the actions taken against the Jews in the middle of the twentieth century to occur). I have not said the Jews didn't suffer. I have not called anyone a Nazi or Vazi. I have not said that the unvaccinated today have suffered in an equivalent manner to Holocaust victims. I have simply pointed out that there are similarities that warrant recognition as they are strikingly similar tactics being used by world leaders to demonize the unvaccinated right now as were used by the Nazis to make the Jews lose standing in German society *prior* to the atrocities perpetrated upon the Jewish people and others selected by those in power as undesirable members of society.

If you can show me the blind spot in my reasoning, I'm open to learning.

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29 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

I welcome an explanation of how pointing out similarities for the purpose of learning from history is insulting to prior victims. Instead of simply doubling down into a four-year-old-fit going back and forth between yes it does, no it doesn't, who can yell louder as your continued assertion that it's just so absurd comes across as, I truly welcome some actual dialogue to help me see how what you claim is so.

Gavin Debecker has an interesting book called the gift of fear that is all about recognizing pre-incident indicators that have been recognized by reverse engineering the tell tale signs that were found to occur prior to sexual assaults. By teaching people about these indicators so they can avoid being victims of sexual assault, I can't begin to fathom how that is conflated to saying that the previous victims' experiences don't matter or the suffering wasn't real. It would seem a greater travesty to recognize tactics used by criminals and not bother to point them out keeping a higher proportion of new victims always available because no one could bother to learn from history and share the help.

Now perhaps there is some inflammatory rhetoric you've experienced elsewhere in regards to this that you are bringing to this discussion, but I feel I've been nothing but respectful in pointing out commonalities of indicators (in this case used by government to make a section of the population into "deplorables", which is a requisite step for the actions taken against the Jews in the middle of the twentieth century to occur). I have not said the Jews didn't suffer. I have not called anyone a Nazi or Vazi. I have not said that the unvaccinated today have suffered in an equivalent manner to Holocaust victims. I have simply pointed out that there are similarities that warrant recognition as they are strikingly similar tactics being used by world leaders to demonize the unvaccinated right now as were used by the Nazis to make the Jews lose standing in German society *prior* to the atrocities perpetrated upon the Jewish people and others selected by those in power as undesirable members of society.

If you can show me the blind spot in my reasoning, I'm open to learning.

https://www.ushmm.org/information/press/press-releases/why-holocaust-analogies-are-dangerous

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.inquirer.com/opinion/commentary/pennsylvania-governor-tom-wolf-shutdown-coronavirus-covid-pandemic-20200520.html%3foutputType=amp

 

https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2021/jul/17/spin-control-think-twice-before-making-that-nazi-c/

 

https://www.sacbee.com/opinion/california-forum/article250529684.html

 

Edited by LDSGator
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12 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

I don't see what you're seeing, but I'm happy to let it go. It's not my preference to make comparisons to Nazis, but as it was already done by others, I felt to simply point out that the comparison was not necessarily the same default Nazi calling as is so common as there are actually similar tactics in play and not just someone being butt hurt and thinking up a term to make an opposing party sound like the bad guy. Thanks for trying to help me understand. The closest I can come to seeing what I think you see is in the potential to reopen wounds among those with lived experience, but I don't suspect we have any of those in this discussion or who would see it. While I see some of the articles make the same assertions you have, they fail to expound any reasoning aside form saying so beyond the aforementioned lived experience piece.

Either way, no further discussion of the matter will be useful for anyone, so let's end it amicably. Thanks again.

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21 hours ago, clwnuke said:

Just a Note: the withdrawn test was the one used to determine the effectiveness of the current vaccines in their trials. Hope that builds your confidence levels in the recent FDA approval :)

Well, again, I signed up for the phase III trial, becoming one of the lab rats that would generate data to fuel the eventual emergency use approvals.  

But to answer your question, the worldwide crapton of stories painting the same picture of "vaccinated people are only getting sick, going to the hospital, or dying, in a fraction of the numbers vaccinated people are" - that's my confidence builder in the effectiveness of the vaccines.  I already knew more approvals by more agencies would do exactly squat to budge people's opinions, as your comment demonstrates.

 

Here - have a few recent articles from the last few weeks:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/08/10/us/covid-breakthrough-infections-vaccines.html

Quote

Serious coronavirus infections among vaccinated people have been relatively rare since the start of the vaccination campaign, a New York Times analysis of data from 40 states and Washington, D.C., shows. Fully vaccinated people have made up as few as 0.1 percent of and as many as 5 percent of those hospitalized with the virus in those states, and as few as 0.2 percent and as many as 6 percent of those who have died.

 

Hospitalization rate for unvaccinated teens 10 times the rate for those vaccinated, CDC says

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/08/18/covid-hospitals-delta/

Quote

“It’s absolutely due to delta; it’s absolutely due to unvaccinated people,” said David Wohl, a specialist in infectious diseases at the University of North Carolina. “There is an incredible increase in hospitalizations across the spectrum, from just needing oxygen and some care to needing serious interventions to keep people alive. If everyone was vaccinated, our hospitals would not be anywhere near where we are,” Wohl said.

 

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/covid-coronavirus-vaccines-hospital-cases-rates-unvaccinated

image.png.9966bdd85a9f37ca6017d7b1fd5138e5.png

 

Hooray!   Effective vaccines!  No serious argument can be made against their efficacy!

 

 

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We went out to dinner with some friends last night.  They told us about another one of their friends who had a family member die.  He died of pneumonia.  He had covid a month or two before.  Guess what his death is listed as?  That is why so many people distrust the numbers that are thrown out.  

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11 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Well, again, I signed up for the phase III trial, becoming one of the lab rats that would generate data to fuel the eventual emergency use approvals.  

But to answer your question, the worldwide crapton of stories painting the same picture of "vaccinated people are only getting sick, going to the hospital, or dying, in a fraction of the numbers vaccinated people are" - that's my confidence builder in the effectiveness of the vaccines.  I already knew more approvals by more agencies would do exactly squat to budge people's opinions, as your comment demonstrates.

 

Here - have a few recent articles from the last few weeks:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/08/10/us/covid-breakthrough-infections-vaccines.html

 

Hospitalization rate for unvaccinated teens 10 times the rate for those vaccinated, CDC says

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/08/18/covid-hospitals-delta/

 

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/covid-coronavirus-vaccines-hospital-cases-rates-unvaccinated

image.png.9966bdd85a9f37ca6017d7b1fd5138e5.png

 

Hooray!   Effective vaccines!  No serious argument can be made against their efficacy!

 

 

I frequently wonder why/how anti vaxxers got so prevalent. Yes, they’ve been around since the small pox days, but they seemed to skyrocket lately. I used think it was scientific illiteracy, and it is, but it’s also groupthink. Ego and pride also play into it. 

66BD6F78-C569-49CC-8935-EC9FBF4A6F77.jpeg

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