Requiring a COVID-19 Vaccine (shot/s)


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11 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Hooray!   Effective vaccines!  No serious argument can be made against their efficacy!

For a very limited definition of effective.  It protects the person from "when" not "if" they are infected... that is a plus.

But all the reasons for mandating the vaccine personal protection isn't one of them.

We are told to get vaccinated to protect other people.  By those metrics it appears to be wholly ineffective.  The vaccinated still become infected, and are still contagious...

If want to protect grams and gramps from you accidentally bring COVID to them... you better not be depending on the vaccine and being Fully Vaccinated   

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9 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

I frequently wonder why/how anti vaxxers got so prevalent. Yes, they’ve been around since the small pox days, but they seemed to skyrocket lately. I used think it was scientific illiteracy, and it is, but it’s also groupthink. Ego and pride also play into it. 

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Classifying most these people as "anti-vaxxers" isn't accurate.   They are anti-THIS-vax.   They are hesitant to put something in their bodies that they either recognize the chances of them dying from the disease is tiny, they don't care to put a vaccine in their body when it's long-term effects are unknown, or a combination of those and/or other things.  

If you've already had COVID with no issues, why would you?   If you're young with no health issues, why would you?

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8 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Classifying most these people as "anti-vaxxers" isn't accurate.   They are anti-THIS-vax.   They are hesitant to put something in their bodies that they either recognize the chances of them dying from the disease is tiny, they don't care to put a vaccine in their body when it's long-term effects are unknown, or a combination of those and/or other things.  

I’m willing to believe that is the case with some people. However, if you are anti this vax, don’t take flu /pneumonia shots...than I have a much harder time believing you. 

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10 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

I’m willing to believe that is the case with some people. However, if you are anti this vax, don’t take flu /pneumonia shots...than I have a much harder time believing you. 

You said this.  I don't understand what your last sentence means.

 

 

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You have every right to be an anti vaxxer, I’m not arguing that. What I am saying is that if you refuse this shot, and the flu shot, and the pneumonia shot...than yes, you might be an anti vaxxer. 
 

It’s a bit like saying “I’m not easily offended, but....”than rattling off things you are offended by. I don’t understand it. 

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1 minute ago, mirkwood said:

So, the fact that I had all my immunizations, as well as the Hep A vax for work, but I don't take flu shots makes me an anti-vaxxer? 

Both of my kids had all their immunizations, except HPV, and do not take flu shots.  So they are anti vaxxers?

That is a really...odd...point of view.

Like I said in my first post, I’m sure there are some people like how you and @Grunt are describing. Maybe not “anti vax” but skeptical of this one. 
 

However, like I said before, if it turns into a pattern, then yes, that’s generally the sign of someone who is “anti vax.”

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18 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

I’m willing to believe that is the case with some people. However, if you are anti this vax, don’t take flu /pneumonia shots...than I have a much harder time believing you. 

Why?  The two vaccinations you mentioned are illnesses that you'll get even if you are vaccinated AND you're likely to recover with no lasting issues.   We're talking about illnesses that are a blip on the radar for the VAST majority of people and the vaccine typically just lessens the symptoms for an illness you're going to catch anyway.    

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1 minute ago, Grunt said:

Why?  The two vaccinations you mentioned are illnesses that you'll get even if you are vaccinated AND you're likely to recover with no lasting issues.   We're talking about illnesses that are a blip on the radar for the VAST majority of people and the vaccine typically just lessens the symptoms for an illness you're going to catch anyway.    

If you feel comfortable playing the odds and putting yourself at risk, than go for it. I’m not arguing you don’t have that right. 

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16 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

If you feel comfortable playing the odds and putting yourself at risk, than go for it. I’m not arguing you don’t have that right. 

No, but you're saying people who don't feel the need to put artificial substances to protect them from a virus they don't feel they need protection from oppose vaccinations.  I'm simply pointing out that isn't true.  They don't care what other people do, they get numerous vaccinations, they just don't get THOSE vaccinations.

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55 minutes ago, estradling75 said:
1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

Hooray!   Effective vaccines!  No serious argument can be made against their efficacy!

For a very limited definition of effective.  It protects the person from "when" not "if" they are infected... that is a plus.

But all the reasons for mandating the vaccine personal protection isn't one of them.

We are told to get vaccinated to protect other people.  By those metrics it appears to be wholly ineffective.  The vaccinated still become infected, and are still contagious...

If want to protect grams and gramps from you accidentally bring COVID to them... you better not be depending on the vaccine and being Fully Vaccinated

- Limited definition of effective: "It makes you between 20 and 244 times less likely to get seriously sick or die of COVID".  IMO, the absolute bestest, most perfectest limited definition possible.  Would you prefer another?

- I'm not in favor of mandating or forcing anything.  Even in cases where it might be legal.  Because history tells us about human nature, and human nature says it won't work.  

- Yep, notions of herd immunity and stopping the thing via a vaccinated population, are pretty much dead notions at this point.  Bummer.  Delta variant sucks, we saw the possibility, but hoped it wouldn't arrive.  And it did.  'rona ain't never going away.  

- I'm content with folks making their choices and living with their consequences.  Big fan of agency here.  "Hey, you wanna be between 20 and 244 times less likely to get sick or die of this thing?  They're handing out free shots over there."  Make the info available, help people not believe crap or dumb things, run all the incentives you want, leave everyone else alone.

 

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8 minutes ago, Grunt said:

No, but you're saying people who don't feel the need to put artificial substances to protect them from a virus they don't feel they need protection from oppose vaccinatio

Partially true. 

I’m saying that if you oppose multiple vaccines-such as this one, the flu shot, other ones, than yes, you are anti vaxx. 
 

again, it’s like saying “I’m not easily offended, but here’s a list of things I’m offended by.” Well, turns out you are easily offended, huh?

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20 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

99% survival rate.  Happy to take on those odds.

Oh, I get it.  Especially for folks who are young/fit/healthy/etc. And, depending on who you ask, it's totally possible surviving the actual thing gives a bit better protection, for longer than a vaccine.

But from a "humans like their civilizations" perspective, we need to do a little math though.  With 7.64 billion people on earth, 1% is 76.4 million dead.  Not to mention 10-100X factor on people who just need hospitalization.   Depending on how many of 'em get sick and die at once, that many patients and corpses can overload services, wreck economies, overthrow governments, and such things.

Around 150,000 people die every day on earth.  That's ~55 million/year.  So the "let nature take it's course" argument basically doubles how many people die in roughly a year.

Such a better decision to make it a 99.99% survival rate with a 99.94% never getting sick enough to go to hospital.  But folks'll do what folks'll do.

In the end, this will still eventually fade from our public consciousness, and take a place as background noise.  We'll think about it as much as we do cancer, fatal car accidents, and all the other things that kill humans. 

 

Edited by NeuroTypical
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4 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

But from a "humans like their civilizations" perspective, we need to do a little math though.  With 7.64 billion people on earth, 1% is 76.4 million dead.  Not to mention 10-100X factor on people who just need hospitalization.   Depending on how many of 'em get sick and die at once, that many patients and corpses can overload services, wreck economies, overthrow governments, and such things.

 

Ok, then I will change my posted % to what has been more commonly stated (I was being lazy with 99%) to 99.7%.  The next factor goes back to all the non Covid deaths listed as Covid deaths.  That is also going to impact that figure.  So yea, I'll take my chances.  Which I did and I am still alive and probably at 90-95% back to normal after 1 month.  As a side note, I probably had Covid 19 v 1.0 last February and survived that too (nobody was testing back then yet, so no way to know for sure, but I'd say about 90% liklihood I had it.)

 

 

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9 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Partially true. 

I’m saying that if you oppose multiple vaccines-such as this one, the flu shot, other ones, than yes, you are anti vaxx. 
 

again, it’s like saying “I’m not easily offended, but here’s a list of things I’m offended by.” Well, turns out you are easily offended, huh?

We see it differently.

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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/2-top-fda-officials-resigned-biden-booster-plan-reports-2021-9%3famp

Makes one wonder why FDA officials are resigning…

I’d like to share a statement that I heard from an astrophysicist this morning.  

“science doesn’t tell us why.  Science tells us why we were wrong.”

I continue to be leary of our government pushing vaccines.  We haven’t had enough time to properly study COVID.

 

 

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52 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

 - Yep, notions of herd immunity and stopping the thing via a vaccinated population, are pretty much dead notions at this point.  Bummer.  Delta variant sucks, we saw the possibility, but hoped it wouldn't arrive.  And it did.  'rona ain't never going away. 

Indeed...  yet we in the very thread we have had people accuse those not vaccinated as being murders spreading COVID... And other places they are being accused of being Anti-science along with being murders.

And for the record I am fully vaccinated precisely because I wanted to help those more vulnerable, and I want the data to show that I made an effective choice...  The data is not there.  I helped myself (Which I really didn't need) as the risk of unknown future side effect if any.  I don't consider that a good exchange at this point.

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If the US Health Authorities (I won't use my preferred label out of respect for each of you) really wanted to overcome the hesitancy of people like myself, they would move heaven and earth to approve some of the non-mRNA vaccines like Novavax and Covaxin, both of which use more traditional vaccine technologies.

The very fact that they have not actively sought to bring any non-mRNA vaccines to the US speaks volumes more about what their motivations are, rather than overcoming the concerns of those like myself.

And back to the point that @estradling75 so eloquently pointed out, since there is no "protection of others" reason for the mandates anymore based on all the current field data, it is the very fact that the Vaccine Authorities sold it to the public on such claims that have now all been proven untrue, that gives us adequate reason to question and distrust those authorities going forward on any matters related to COVID.

I will gladly get the Covaxin vaccine, based on whole virus technology, the minute it's available. Others likely would too IMHO. That would do far more to help our divisive situation than any further mandates from the Vaccinistas 😮.

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Yep, notions of herd immunity and stopping the thing via a vaccinated population, are pretty much dead notions at this point.  Bummer.  Delta variant sucks, we saw the possibility, but hoped it wouldn't arrive.  And it did.  'rona ain't never going away.  

The way all of this is unfolding is very concerning to me. It seems as though there is no end! Sigh. 

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