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Requiring a COVID-19 Vaccine (shot/s)

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1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

Ok, forget New Jersey - here's more context.  The phenomenon is happening across the country (and probably the planet). Again: 

Quote

This is actually a great illustration of the doubters' argument. Why are they graphing "overall deaths" between vaccinated and unvaccinated? This is overtly and ridiculously biased. We went a year without any vaccines, and literally EVERYONE who died of COVID-19 in that time was unvaccinated. So that huge group gets lumped in with the "unvaccinated death" percentage. 

Does anyone with an IQ above room temperature NOT see the problem here?

It's like saying, "We have historically had a 90% failure rate for students in Such-and-such Discipline. In an effort to have greater success, a year ago we introduced The Great Teaching Program (TGTP) for Such-and-such Discipline. So, taking a view of the last 250 years of Such-and-such Discipline, we can see that 99.9% of the overall failures during those two-and-a-half centuries were among those who DIDN'T take TGTP, and only a bare tiny fraction were among those who DID take TGTP. This proves that The Great Teaching Program is a dazzling success! Never mind that the large bulk of the failures took place before TGTP was even available. Totally irrelevant."

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3 hours ago, Vort said:

This is actually a great illustration of the doubters' argument. Why are they graphing "overall deaths" between vaccinated and unvaccinated? This is overtly and ridiculously biased. We went a year without any vaccines, and literally EVERYONE who died of COVID-19 in that time was unvaccinated. So that huge group gets lumped in with the "unvaccinated death" percentage. 

Does anyone with an IQ above room temperature NOT see the problem here?

You've got a point, but not as pointy as you believe.  This is largely 2021 data - nothing from 2020.

image.thumb.png.72ba1dbcdf33277a06b57cabff1c6447.png

 

And take a look at Arizona - the case data only covers the last two months:

image.png.777eca249ebe37cb359bd7bd0008dd68.png

image.thumb.png.b21680c82329af743a2509ac5ac341cd.png

 

And, again, google yourself up as many craptons of links as you like - there are plenty available with recent data, and they all point to the same obvious reality.

May data: https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-health-941fcf43d9731c76c16e7354f5d5e187
"An Associated Press analysis of available government data from May shows that “breakthrough” infections in fully vaccinated people accounted for fewer than 1,200 of more than 107,000 COVID-19 hospitalizations. That’s about 1.1%.  And only about 150 of the more than 18,000 COVID-19 deaths in May were in fully vaccinated people. That translates to about 0.8%, or five deaths per day on average."

 

Story written 3 days ago: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/aug/03/us-covid-coronavirus-cases-hospitalizations-unvaccinated

"On Monday, there were more Covid-19 hospitalizations in Florida than at any time in the pandemic. The chief executive of the Florida Hospital Association, Mary Mayhew, told MSNBC that about 95% of those hospitalized were unvaccinated."

 

August 2: https://t.e2ma.net/message/0uap6m/wfgsz9

"Our Lady of the Lake is currently treating 155 COVID-19 patients in the hospital, with about one-third in intensive care. On average, one COVID-19 patient is being admitted every hour in addition to a steady influx of patients coming into the Emergency Department. The hospital already instated an earlier pause on non-urgent inpatient procedures to make additional beds and staff available for COVID-19 patients. Our beds are full of patients with COVID-19 who are predominately unvaccinated."

 

Here's a fact-checking website sourcing and verifying the claim: https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/unvaccinated-individuals-now-account-for-the-vast-majority-of-covid-19-hospitalizations-and-deaths-in-the-u-s-according-to-available-data/

 

@Vort, you are like, really, really invested in vaccines not being as wildly effective as they are.  How come?

 

Edited by NeuroTypical

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51 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

You've got a point, but not as pointy as you believe.  This is largely 2021 data - nothing from 2020.

Well, that pretty much eviscerates my argument.

Quote

@Vort, you are like, really, really invested in vaccines not being as wildly effective as they are.  How come?

I will answer this if you will first tell me what I wrote, anywhere, at any time in this or any other discussion, that indicates that I think vaccines in general or the COVID vaccines specifically are not effective.

PS You also have to tell me why you think that what I wrote means I think vaccines are not effective.

Edited by Vort

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@Vort, I apologize.  I've been trumpeting vaccine success in my various social media circles, and I'm dodging a lot of bulldozers and spears and acid from a lot of different directions.  Most of the debate punches I've thrown in the last week have been on-target with a mutual combatant, but I failed to notice that you and I aren't fighting.

I'm just excited at how our hospitals and morgues have to look pretty dang hard to see a vaccinated covid problem.  It's news worth shouting from the rooftops, IMO, even if it is earning me a bunch of angry "shut up it's 3am"s from other folks.

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Anyone notice how the influenza numbers have pretty much been non-existent ever since the start of Covid? Why is this?
The CDC is now telling testing sites to stop using the rapid PCR test to detect Covid and begin switching to an alternative test that can distinguish between Covid vs. the flu: 

Quote

After December 31, 2021, CDC will withdraw the request to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) of the CDC 2019-Novel Coronavirus (2019-nCoV) Real-Time RT-PCR Diagnostic Panel, the assay first introduced in February 2020 for detection of SARS-CoV-2 only. 

CDC encourages laboratories to consider adoption of a multiplexed method that can facilitate detection and differentiation of SARS-CoV-2 and influenza viruses. Such assays can facilitate continued testing for both influenza and SARS-CoV-2 and can save both time and resources as we head into influenza season.

 

Edited by NeedleinA

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1 hour ago, Vort said:

Well, that pretty much eviscerates my argument.

I will answer this if you will first tell me what I wrote, anywhere, at any time in this or any other discussion, that indicates that I think vaccines in general or the COVID vaccines specifically are not effective.

PS You also have to tell me why you think that what I wrote means I think vaccines are not effective.

 

On 8/2/2021 at 2:06 PM, Vort said:

This is an excellent point. I'm no vaccine hater—in fact, I and my entire family got vaccinated a couple of months ago—but when the information sources themselves prove biased and unreliable, you can't trust anything they say. At the very least, you have to look over the extensive data set and do the math yourself, which most people are not qualified to do. Even then, you still have to depend that (a) the numbers they report are accurate, (b) they have not fudged the numbers by counting edge cases or blatant false counting (such as the many anecdotes of mom's death by heart attack or falling off the porch being chalked up to COVID), and (c) there are no deep systematic errors in generating the numbers.

No. The media have proved themselves entirely and utterly unreliable. The government itself and its officials are not leaders, but cheerleaders. My own uninformed opinion is that the preponderance of evidence suggests that the vaccines are probably effective. But if you reject the sources of information as biased—which is true beyond any possible doubt—then you might well arrive at the opposite conclusion, and only a fanatic in deep denial of what has been happening for years before our very eyes will scold you or call you names.

I found it......oh wait :D 

I think it's easy to lose the nuance in a discussion like this.  Vort expresses issues with the media, statistics and reporting on COVID and it can be easy to lump him in with the Anti-vaxxers.  NT touts the vaccines effectiveness and it can be easy to think that indicates support of governments or business requiring people to get the shot.

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19 minutes ago, dprh said:

 

I found it......oh wait :D 

I think it's easy to lose the nuance in a discussion like this.  Vort expresses issues with the media, statistics and reporting on COVID and it can be easy to lump him in with the Anti-vaxxers.  NT touts the vaccines effectiveness and it can be easy to think that indicates support of governments or business requiring people to get the shot.

Nuance schmuance.  Why do you hate science?

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The state of play in Australia at the moment on requiring vaccinations:

From sections 92 and 93 of the 2015 Biosecurity Act

92  Receiving a vaccination or treatment

                   An individual may be required by a human biosecurity control order to receive, at a specified medical facility:

                     (a)  a specified vaccination; or

                     (b)  a specified form of treatment;

in order to manage the listed human disease specified in the order, and any other listed human disease.

Note:          For the manner in which this biosecurity measure must be carried out, see section 94.

93  Receiving medication

             (1)  An individual may be required by a human biosecurity control order to receive specified medication in order to manage the listed human disease specified in the order, and any other listed human disease.

Note:          For the manner in which this biosecurity measure must be carried out, see section 94.

             (2)  The order must specify:

                     (a)  how much medication is to be taken; and

                     (b)  how long the medication is to be taken for.

 

From yesterday's meeting of the Prime Minister, the State Premiers, and the two Territory Chief Ministers as reported in the major local newspaper this morning

Government rules out mandating any further workplace COVID-19 vaccinations

https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/7375168/national-cabinet-sticks-to-no-mandatory-jabs-policy/?cs=14329

The Prime Minister Scott Morrison insists there is no mandatory vaccination policy in Australia, but he's left open the issue of mandatory COVID-19 jabs for workers saying they are a decision for employers.

 

 

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11 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

I dearly, dearly, want to put this thing in our rear view mirror.  Both vaccinations and natural immunity will help us get there. 

We agree on this. I'm not anti-vaccination and I am also not pro-vaccination. I am solely against exploits to try to make something appear more successful than it really is. I have shared this before (please note I am not referencing you in this -- want to make that clear) regarding the intellectual dishonesty from our medical professionals. If there were more honesty and less specious explanations, less dictator issues, etc... we would already be moving past this. Let me clarify once more:

1) In the beginning with Covid we know the a lot of people (if not the majority) were dying of heart attacks, cancer, diabetes, or some form of pre-existing condition. All these deaths were counted as a Covid death. This resulted in fear mongering and inflated death reports from Covid. Now look at this from the Texas article with regards to the vaccinations deaths:

"The agency said nearly 75% of the 43 vaccinated people who died were fighting a serious underlying condition, such as diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure, cancer or chronic lung disease."

Notice how they seek now to use "underlying conditions" as a way to say the vaccination is working, these people were dying anyway from a pre-existing condition. Where as in the beginning of Covid it was exactly the opposite. This is specious information coming from medical professionals.

2) Numbers can be manipulated to specify what an organization or entity wants them to mean. Thus my questions. How do they know that any of the vaccinated people are doing better because they are vaccinated? These vaccinated people could have survived anyway. If they would have survived anyway -- without a vaccination -- then it doesn't support the argument. Can you prove that these people who were vaccinated would have died if they weren't? If not, then there leaves a big hole in the argument for vaccination.

3) This is the type of assumption I have a hard time with, "COVID would probably take half or more, and kill a percentage of everyone else, more of the older, fewer of the younger." If we take the Spanish Flu as a example, it should have killed a heck of a lot more people then, but it didn't. With no vaccination.

4) I have shared this before, my whole family received the flu vaccine, except me, and I was the only one that didn't get the flu. When my family received the flu vaccine it was the worst flu case to go through my house. My wife was down for three days. My children were down for three days. I was down 0 days. Am I against my family receiving vaccines -- heavens no. It is their choice.

Understand, I'm not arguing against the validity of vaccines. I'm arguing against supporting arguments. I'm all for people with high risk voluntarily receiving the vaccine. There are talks of forcing children to receive the vaccine who are nearly immune to the virus (if you are nearly immune the vaccine won't help, it is a placebo). This is where I argue against vaccines, especially when statistics which have major loop holes, are used to force something upon someone.

 

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7 hours ago, Anddenex said:

In the beginning with Covid we know the a lot of people (if not the majority) were dying of heart attacks, cancer, diabetes, or some form of pre-existing condition. All these deaths were counted as a Covid death.


I agree with everything you said in your whole post, but wanted to use this one statement to make a point. 
 

To clarify my point, I am not arguing for or against vaccinations, but my point is simply that these issues are not as cut and dried or as definitive as we might believe. Again, WE are not the ones testing, doing the research in a lab, or gathering the data to report. Instead this information changes hands multiple times and then is parroted, slanted, skewed and even stifled by the time it reaches the public. 
 

This point you made is absolutely valid. The difficulty is in HOW to state the death with absolution. I will give a personal example to illustrate. 
 

My father’s cousin and cousin’s wife both caught COVID-19 and both went to the hospital last year. They were both in their 70’s. My father’s cousin’s wife was sent home the same day, but he was not. He passed away a few days later. He had pre-existing breathing problems. 
 

So, how should the hospital report his death? He clearly had pre-existing breathing problems. He technically passed away from those breathing problems. But would those problems have been so exacerbated to the point of death without having caught COVID? So, the hospital called it a COVID related death. (Right or wrong, this is what they did.) 
 

So, hypothetically, how would the news media cover this story? Some news agencies might report it how the hospital did and call it a COVID related death. Some might have reported that he died of breathing complications/old age. Some might have reported that half of all the people in this story (two) died of COVID. 
 

So, which hypothetical news agency reported it correctly? Well, they all did in a way. And they reported it according to the political narrative they wanted to push. And when we, the hypothetical news consumers, watch these reports we come here to discuss and even argue about it. 
 


So, what is my point? My point is that there is no definitive authority except God on this issue due to the nuances of thousands (millions?) of individual cases and circumstances. And this is what happens with every single issue that becomes political, from the “science” of climate change to the evils/virtues of capitalism. So, when I hear the numbers, see the graphs, and hear the explanations of these statistics being reported, I can’t help but roll my eyes at the “definitive” conclusions being reached based on third, fourth, and fifth hand information that is presented. Especially considering the amount of silencing/cancelling of information we are experiencing and how heavily it skews our perceptions. 
 

President Nelson - “If we are to have any hope of sifting through the myriad of voices and the philosophies of men that attack truth, we must learn to receive revelation.” 

Edited by Colirio

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11 hours ago, Anddenex said:

Understand, I'm not arguing against the validity of vaccines. I'm arguing against supporting arguments. I'm all for people with high risk voluntarily receiving the vaccine. There are talks of forcing children to receive the vaccine who are nearly immune to the virus (if you are nearly immune the vaccine won't help, it is a placebo). This is where I argue against vaccines, especially when statistics which have major loop holes, are used to force something upon someone.

I don't think we really have much to argue about, other than your conclusion.  I'm just happy to have a wildly effective vaccine.

In an age of intellectual dishonesty from our medical professionals, we have an effective vaccine.
In a land full of specious explanations and dictator issues, we have an effective vaccine.
Surrounded by fear mongering and inflated death reports from Covid, we have an effective vaccine.
Where we have plenty of specious information coming from medical professionals, we have an effective vaccine
In a dark era where numbers are manipulated to specify what an organization or entity wants them to mean, we have an effective vaccine.

 

Quote

Thus my questions. How do they know that any of the vaccinated people are doing better because they are vaccinated?

Because you can't find them with COVID issues in hospitals or morgues any more.  95+% of the covid cases in hospitals and morgues are unvaccinated people.  All of your concerns and gripes and relevant complaints and yelling, as relevant and important as they are, can't put a dent in the glorious relevant fact: we have an effective vaccine.

You get that, right?    Even if you are understating all your issues and problems, even if they're all 1000 times worse than you realize, you get that the vaccine is effective, right?

Quote

Can you prove that these people who were vaccinated would have died if they weren't?

Individually, no.   Collectively, yes.  Put 1000 unvaccinated obese heart candidates in a room and give 'em COVID.  Put another 1000 vaccinated obese heart candidates in a room and give them COVID too.  The first 1000 will have more severe issues and more death than the second 1000.   They'll "die of COVID" more, they'll "die of their heart condition" more.  They'll need more ventilators, longer hospital stays, and have longer long-term negative effects.  And most of the second 1000 won't even catch COVID in the first place.  The few that do will almost never need a hospital or a morgue because of the experience.  My hypothetical is happening in every city, every county, every state, every nation across the planet.  Over and over again - similar results.  The vaccinated folks have largely stopped needing hospitals and morgues due to COVID.

We can stand on our righteous soapboxes, with our loudest megaphones, shouting all day long, about the ins and outs of how people and organizations with agendas, are skewing these numbers, spinning those studies, to forward their nefarious agendas.  (Please note I'm saying "righteous" and not "self-righteous" - because you both make important points.) We can be as correct and truthful about these important things as we'll be.  But at the end of the grand megaphoning superspreader event, Maybe one of the 100 vaccinated soapbox megaphoners will go to the hospital and none of them will die, and the 100 unvaccinated soapbox megaphoners will probably have 5 or 6 that need hospitalization, and 1 or 2 of them will die.

 

Edited by NeuroTypical

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When pro-vax proponent AND co-inventor of mRNA technology, Dr. Robert Malone, warns against continued use of Covid-19 injection, do we bother to listen?
He is not an anti-vaxxer.  He states:

Quote

I'm the opposite of an anti-vaxxer, I'm a true believer. But I'm also committed to safety and good science. 

he continues:

Quote

I don’t mean to sound alarmist, but what seems to be rolling out is the worst-case scenario where the vaccine in the waning phase is causing the virus to replicate more efficiently than it would otherwise, which is what we call an antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE)...

The escape mutants that are escaping vaccine selecting pressure are most likely developing in the people that have been vaccinated, not in the unvaccinated,...

we are there, the worst case scenario, that the vaccine community has been warning about since the beginning of the outbreak... 

If the data is consistent with ADE, we have to stop the vaccine campaign. We have to pivot to expediting as much as possible to drug treatments which have been largely blocked and suppressed at the FDA level...

I think they (govt. & Fauci) are all in on the logic that we need universal vaccination to open up the economy, we don't. They think that vaccines are the pathway to getting to herd immunity, they are not. This is happening now, you can't deny it, its in your face. They think that vaccines are perfectly safe and not only are they not perfectly safe, if this is true that NBC reports, and the titers are higher in vaccinated than unvaccinated that means we've got the worst case type of adverse event that scare vaccinologist, all vaccinologist, which is antibody dependent enhancement, the vaccine makes the disease worse. This seems to be the most florid example, to my eyes, of group think, that I've ever seen in my life. They are all in, they seem to be unable to process this new information...

 

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There was a time not that long ago that lobotomies were considered "effective" treatment for certain aliments.  The scientists of the day, pointed to the research and the trials and showed the numbers proving that it was a "effective" treatment. It took much longer to realize and face the horrific long term costs.  Will the covid vaccine go that direction?  I have no idea.  But shutting down the people expressing concerns is not the way to go.

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Just now, estradling75 said:

There was a time not that long ago that lobotomies were considered "effective" treatment for certain aliments.  The scientists of the day, pointed to the research and the trials and showed the numbers proving that it was a "effective" treatment. It took much longer to realize and face the horrific long term costs.  Will the covid vaccine go that direction?  I have no idea.  But shutting down the people expressing concerns is not the way to go.

And remember that time that our Prophet got a lobotomy....

Oh...... wait. 

:D

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28 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

ldsvaxx.jpg

I think you didn't get the joke. ;) It was only a joke because the lobotomy thing is clear hyperbole. I tend towards fearing the vaccine more than trusting it.

That being said,  President Nelson did say:

“We have prayed often for this literal godsend.”

Sure. It's not doctrine. And sure, it is each member's responsibility to make the decision on their own. But the vaccine, according to our prophet, was a "literal godsend".

I'm not sure how I can personally reconcile my concerns about the vaccine, which I share with many of you, with it being a "literal godsend" according to our prophet. But I can definitely state with some level of confidence that lobotomizing people wasn't a prayed-for, literal godsend procedure.

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2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

But at the end of the grand megaphoning superspreader event, Maybe one of the 100 vaccinated soapbox megaphoners will go to the hospital and none of them will die, and the 100 unvaccinated soapbox megaphoners will probably have 5 or 6 that need hospitalization, and 1 or 2 of them will die.

But how do you know that any unvaccinated soapbox megaphoners who may die in the hospital, will have actually died of COVID?  What if they were . . . deliberately silenced? #Epsteindidntkillhimself

I’m being a little tongue-in-cheek, but we’ve actually got people suggesting that the four Capitol Hill PD officers who committed suicide in the last few months, were deliberately killed because their testimony would bolster the Trumpling narrative that January 6 was just a harmless walk in the park.

I fear at this point people are irrevocably entrenched in their opinions; data are being replaced by a sort of factual-nihilist mantra of “we can never know the truth, but we do know those guys are out to get us.”

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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19 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

 

I fear at this point people are irrevocably entrenched in their opinions; data are being replaced by a sort of factual-nihilist mantra of “we can never know the truth, but we do know those guys are out to get us.”

Hence why some of us have spoken out against conspiracies and tribalism for years. We’ve been afraid of this happening for a long time. 

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26 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Hence why some of us have spoken out against conspiracies and tribalism for years. We’ve been afraid of this happening for a long time. 

 

Unfortunately most people with this position have taken it to the opposite extreme.  

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1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I think you didn't get the joke. ;) It was only a joke because the lobotomy thing is clear hyperbole. I tend towards fearing the vaccine more than trusting it.

 

I did.  Many will still only hear:

"Ultimately, individuals are responsible to take the Covid vaccine."

 

Quote

That being said,  President Nelson did say:

“We have prayed often for this literal godsend.”

Sure. It's not doctrine. And sure, it is each member's responsibility to make the decision on their own. But the vaccine, according to our prophet, was a "literal godsend".

I'm not sure how I can personally reconcile my concerns about the vaccine, which I share with many of you, with it being a "literal godsend" according to our prophet. But I can definitely state with some level of confidence that lobotomizing people wasn't a prayed-for, literal godsend procedure.

Yes he did say that.  It makes me more comfortable for those who choose to take it.  

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16 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

I did.  Many will still only hear:

"Ultimately, individuals are responsible to take the Covid vaccine."

Yes. Because the prophet not only got it, but stated it was a God sent answer to prayers, and did a very publicized photoshoot of himself getting it. It's obvious that many are going to take that as prophetic counsel, which they will feel responsible/obligated to follow. And I don't see anything wrong with that, as long as they keep themselves from judging those who've determined that not to be the case as having done wrong or having not followed the prophet's counsel.

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4 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I’m being a little tongue-in-cheek, but we’ve actually got people suggesting that the four Capitol Hill PD officers who committed suicide in the last few months, were deliberately killed because their testimony would bolster the Trumpling narrative that January 6 was just a harmless walk in the park.

I sure hope you are not referring to my winky face exchange with @LDSGator earlier? 
I was poking the bear, nothing more. 

I'm actually more on this level 😉

5024d84beda98056.jpeg.5be8cf238047bbd5e4631a5911dce45b.jpeg

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