Requiring a COVID-19 Vaccine (shot/s)

[mikbone]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2021/05/04/business/pfizer-covid-vaccine-profits.amp.html

Wonder if this had anything to do with the rapid FDA approval.

[clwnuke]

I have a question for the collective wisdom of the hive: In the First Presidency's 19 January 2021 statement on vaccination, the following was said "Individuals are responsible to make their own decisions about vaccination."

I've been pondering what would constitute not taking responsibility for one's own decisions about vaccination? If a person says "Well, the Prophet did it so I'm doing it", which category does that fall into? Taking responsibility or not taking responsibility? Did they really make their own decision or are they relying upon the Prophet's decision?

Thoughts?

[JohnsonJones]

1 hour ago, clwnuke said:

I have a question for the collective wisdom of the hive: In the First Presidency's 19 January 2021 statement on vaccination, the following was said "Individuals are responsible to make their own decisions about vaccination."

I've been pondering what would constitute not taking responsibility for one's own decisions about vaccination? If a person says "Well, the Prophet did it so I'm doing it", which category does that fall into? Taking responsibility or not taking responsibility? Did they really make their own decision or are they relying upon the Prophet's decision?

Thoughts?

When Saints were told to move out West, most of the time they did so as they followed the Prophet.  HOWEVER, there were some exceptions that came along, and thus a few ended up staying in the East while a few others went to other locations.  Most don't follow or even talk about these outliers because they were the exception rather than the rule.  In addition, there were not that many of them at all that had these types of exceptions.  In almost all cases they eventually went West, but after situations and times made it possible for them to travel there.

In that light, the normal idea is you do as you are asked by the Prophet.  However, there have been notations of reasons WHY one may not take the vaccine as per official policy.  This exception is normally accompanied by prayer and talking with PROFESSIONAL medical personnel (I'd assume normally about the inherent risks of taking a vaccine in relation to one's own health situation).

Now, I've seen MANY try to talk about the Letter of the law by saying they talked to some medical individual (sometimes via forums on the internet, sometimes to a nurse or anyone other than the their medical doctor, or they specifically seek out some other doctor who they know will tell them what they want).  They claim a fear of vaccines rather than any true medical condition.

Some of their claims are actually quite offensive when compared to others who got the vaccine.  It is more offensive when those taking what they see as the letter of the law as seen above vs. those who actually need to deal with the actual REASONS of  the policy and the reason the Spirit of it is involved with the law.  Some examples...

I know an individual on Oxygen with COPD and severe allergic reactions which can cause them to go into shock.  Even the slightest HINT of tobacco smoke for example has caused us to need to call an ambulance for them.  They wore a mask when we saw them and got vaccinated.  If they could wear a mask, those claiming they can't breathe because of masks but are healthy otherwise with no breathing problems are just mocking those who REALLY can't breathe.  The individual on Oxygen actually hated how the Church has forced people to go back to get the sacrament in their area because they know all the claims of those who don't wear masks and ignore the REAL danger they provide to those who really DO have breathing problems if Covid was spread to them.

Another two examples of vaccines.  My son-in Law has a brother who is immunocompromised.  His brother has basically lived in isolation for the past year.  I have not seen them and even his own brother has avoided visiting over fears of the virus (of course, there were fears of other diseases as well, but this has been heightened about Covid due to the recklessness of people willing to spread it).  He has gotten vaccinated.  Now, we are unsure of how well that vaccination works as his body lacks the ability to really create immunity, so it is STILL a fear he lives in because there are many who don't care whether they kill him or not by giving him diseases (a normal concern to be honest without Covid, but with the reckless regard some have created with Covid, it's become a much worse concern).

A final example, though not as extreme, one of my children has a VALID concern about vaccines.  They have deadly allergy to eggs and a few other items involved with the creation of vaccines.  They have not gotten the flu vaccine for years because of this.  We found out early on in their life after a vaccination sent them to them to the ER.  After that EVERY vaccination is referred to the doctor, as it's not just eggs, but that's the most common item in some vaccines which they are allergic to (think of some vaccines as injecting liquid poison into their veins type bad, and thus sending them to the hospital).  We talked to doctors and specialist on this, because taking a vaccine is a life threatening event for my kid.  This WAS one where heavy discussion with professional medical personnel and prayer was involved.  My kid eventually took the vaccine and is now vaccinated, but it was with a GREAT DEAL of deliberation on it.  It was not some light debate of reading some internet articles, thinking we didn't want it and asking a doctor to validate our thoughts.  It was a serious debate concerning a VERY REAL health concern directly related to taking vaccines.

I HIGHLY doubt most have done what we and our family did in regards to my kid getting vaccinated and how seriously we took it.  It was a literal life and death type consideration in whether to get the Covid-19 Vaccine for them.  The final choice was my child (as they are old enough to make their decision, but they asked for prayers and thoughts from everyone in the family), but they did a LOT of prayer, fasting, and deliberation as well as consultation with a wide range of their doctors and specialist before coming to a conclusion.

So when people come out with light stories and basically make a mockery of those who really DID have health concerns and DID have to consider the realities of health, life, death, and the seriousness of it, it could be seen as rather offensive.

However, that's more of seeing it in the Spirit I feel it was given, rather than just following an interpretation of the Letter of it.  There ARE valid exceptions, just like there were for the Saints who went out West.  However, normally I think it would be the EXCEPTION rather than the massive numbers who FEEL they are the exceptions but if we really look at the spirit of how it was probably given...probably really aren't.

 

Edit:  However, just to clarify, there ARE valid reasons NOT to take the vaccine, and it is a personal decision up to the individual in that light.  It is spelled out in the handbook, the policy on vaccines has been out before the First Presidencies most recent message on the topic.  Their statement, to me, is more pointing out that it is still the Church policy in reference to some of the more recent vaccines that have come out over the past year and that we adhere to it.

Edited August 24, 2021 by JohnsonJones

[dprh]

1 hour ago, clwnuke said:

I have a question for the collective wisdom of the hive: In the First Presidency's 19 January 2021 statement on vaccination, the following was said "Individuals are responsible to make their own decisions about vaccination."

I've been pondering what would constitute not taking responsibility for one's own decisions about vaccination? If a person says "Well, the Prophet did it so I'm doing it", which category does that fall into? Taking responsibility or not taking responsibility? Did they really make their own decision or are they relying upon the Prophet's decision?

Thoughts?

Sounds like they made the decision to follow the prophet and took responsibility to limit their exposure and chance of spreading the virus.

From the handbook, I read it to mean, "get vaccinated, but if you have (valid) concerns, do your due diligence. " (I'm not nearly as eloquent as JJ)

Quote

 

Vaccinations
Vaccinations administered by competent medical professionals protect health and preserve life. Members of the Church are encouraged to safeguard themselves, their children, and their communities through vaccination.

Ultimately, individuals are responsible to make their own decisions about vaccination. If members have concerns, they should counsel with competent medical professionals and also seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost.

 

 

[LDSGator]

1 minute ago, dprh said:

get vaccinated, but if you have (valid) concerns, do your due diligence 

 Same here. 
 

 

1 minute ago, dprh said:

" (I'm not nearly as eloquent as JJ)

We’re just glad you aren’t as wordy as JJ. 
 

( @JohnsonJones-totally playing!!!) 

[clwnuke]

14 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

However, that's more of seeing it in the Spirit I feel it was given, rather than just following an interpretation of the Letter of it. 

That's pretty much why I've been pondering my question of responsibility. Say for instance that it is determined later that the mRNA vaccines result in some complication that was not disclosed or caught previously. Who's responsible? Would some of the members who strongly felt that they needed to follow the Prophet's example possibly blame the FP for their current situation? Or, did people not understand that the statement made clear that it is our responsibility?

[clwnuke]

7 minutes ago, dprh said:

Sounds like they made the decision to follow the prophet and took responsibility to limit their exposure and chance of spreading the virus.

 

I'm grateful for everyone who has exercised common sense to limit their exposure, but I do occasionally call hypocrisy on some of the Vazis who are shaming the unvaccinated, but who haven't bothered to shed a single pound of their obesity during the entire pandemic despite it being the #1 comorbidity associated with COVID deaths.

[JohnsonJones]

1 minute ago, clwnuke said:

That's pretty much why I've been pondering my question of responsibility. Say for instance that it is determined later that the mRNA vaccines result in some complication that was not disclosed or caught previously. Who's responsible? Would some of the members who strongly felt that they needed to follow the Prophet's example possibly blame the FP for their current situation? Or, did people not understand that the statement made clear that it is our responsibility?

I am not a doctor nor am I a medical researcher or medical professional and nothing I say should be taken as being given from someone with that education or background.  This is my understanding of it.

A long winded answer...

Most of the time with medications complications from it are known before it even gets to the final testing phases.  Almost every situation involving medications is related to something they knew about before hand, but did not feel it would be as prevalent or as serious as it became.  Most of the time it is related to a side effect they listed, but felt that the side effect would affect such a small percentage that using the medication was far more valuable than not using it.

There are rare times when something pops up, but it is normally extremely rare for something new and unknown to appear.  It is normally a side effect that is known, but is notably worse when given on a mass scale.  Lawsuits arise in such situations.

From what I understand, vaccines are even safer in the long than medications.  It is even more rare for a vaccine to have a situation arise like the above.

There WAS the situation with the Polio vaccine.  It caused a great deal of national panic at first.  When it first came out children were getting polio who had taken the vaccine.  I don't know all the specifics of it as I was rather young.  They halted the vaccines for a while until they figured out what was happening.  I think they had accidentally released an active Polio virus in what they thought was the vaccine at the time resulting in kids actually GETTING Polio itself rather than vaccinating them against it to build antibodies.  They fixed this issue and the rest is history.   As you can see, it DID result in serious complications at first.

With the Covid-19 vaccines there has been far more research done than was done with the Polio vaccine at first.  the mRNA vaccine was first started in development over a decade ago.  It was made in development in regards to SARS (and then MERS), which created a great deal of fear of what could happen if it had become more widespread.  It was already closely aligned to other SARS type viruses (similar to how the each flu vaccine is connected to other flu vaccines).  It was relatively easy to switch it from being solely focused on SARS 1 or MERS to SARS 2 (Covid-19).  It was mere luck that research into a SARS vaccine had been going on for so long.  It if had NOT been, development of an mRNA SARS vaccine probably would still be ongoing. 

During it's testing phase, which technically it was not actually finished with when it became emergency usage authorization, it's had FAR MORE testing done than almost any vaccine has ever had.  The short term effects seem to be well catalogued at this point.  The worst case seems to be an allergic reaction which can cause anaphylactic shock and kill someone.  Less extreme it appears it can create the symptoms of Covid-19 in an individual, even if they do not have the disease, and in a few rare cases, even replicate the long term effects on an individual.  It is rather rare. 

Like other vaccines and types of newer medical treatments there is no 100% guarantees.  They can be rather confident of what the side effects, how serious they will be, and long term effects will be, but until that happens, they cannot say for 100% what will happen. 

IF a serious side effect is found eventually I do not think the blame would be on the First Presidency.  It would probably result in a legal lawsuit against several players in the usage of it.  People are normally advised to go against the biggest major proponent of something that has the ability to pay damages.  In this instance I imagine a lawsuit would be levelled against the U.S. government, and then against the companies that produced the vaccines. 

AS the handbook spells out what we are to do, in this instance I doubt the Church has any responsibility...however...if it WAS serious enough (and this rarely happens with medications, and even more rarely with vaccines...even ones with new processes) that the Church had caused great disabilities with many of it's members, I expect it may take some sort of action and responsibility on it's part to help alleviate and aid those affected.

Similarly to when they moved out West, some of those in companies that were more seriously impacted received a great deal of aid in getting that final leg to the Salt Lake Valley, and eventually in helping them settle as they needed more help than others due to their personal situations.

[LDSGator]

12 minutes ago, clwnuke said:

I'm grateful for everyone who has exercised common sense to limit their exposure, but I do occasionally call hypocrisy on some of the Vazis who are shaming the unvaccinated, but who haven't bothered to shed a single pound of their obesity during the entire pandemic despite it being the #1 comorbidity associated with COVID deaths.

I’m as pro mask/vax as they come, and yes, it’s silly to see a smoker/morbidly obese person lecture someone else about wearing a mask and shaming the unvaccinated. 
 

But, to he fair, it’s also somewhat ironic (But these people also can’t grasp irony, like the smoker lecturing you about masks) when someone claims to be “pro life” yet has no problem possibly infecting others, especially the weak and vulnerable, with a potentially deadly disease. So both sides have their silliness, I guess. 

Edited August 24, 2021 by LDSGator

[clwnuke]

It would be nice to actually have the data that was used for approval available to the public for review. But it is not. Pfizer submitted six months of data, without a controlled placebo group (they unblinded the study early on), but not a single page of it has been reviewed by independent experts. The FDA chose to skip the normal process of public hearings and independent review and proceed to approval. By training (and by my nature) I am skeptical of decisions made without transparency, but I still hope for the best rather than the worst.

[mirkwood]

99% survival rate.  Some of ya'll act like this is the second coming of the bubonic plague.

[NeuroTypical]

Well, the bubonic plague killed around 25 million people back in the 14th century.  And 1% of the earth's population today is around 76 million people.  So just judging by how high the bodies get stacked, this thing could be around 3 times worse before it burns itself out...

Edited August 24, 2021 by NeuroTypical

[clwnuke]

7 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

But, to he fair, it’s also somewhat ironic (But these people also can’t grasp irony, like the smoker lecturing you about masks) when someone claims to be “pro life” yet has no problem possibly infecting others, especially the weak and vulnerable, with a potentially deadly disease. So both sides have their silliness, I guess. 

Statistically, the most significant transmission vector of COVID right now in the USA and world, are fully vaccinated people. Yes, it's a numbers game, but a careful unvaccinated person like myself is far more likely to be infected by a vaccinated person than a non-vaccinated.

To some degree, we have always accepted the risk of others possibly carrying contagious diseases. I am considered a critical employee so I have been under very strict guidelines this whole time, but I would not blame anyone who exposed me unintentionally - vaccinated or unvaccinated.

Interestingly, I also donate platelets and blood regularly. My friends at the donation center would be thrilled if I caught COVID and recovered so they could harvest my antibodies! Unfortunately, the only antibodies that can be harvested are from unvaccinated people so they like my current status. 

[NeuroTypical]

2 minutes ago, clwnuke said:

Statistically, the most significant transmission vector of COVID right now in the USA and world, are fully vaccinated people. Yes, it's a numbers game, but a careful unvaccinated person like myself is far more likely to be infected by a vaccinated person than a non-vaccinated. 

How do you figure that?  I'm interested in your source, or the math you did, to arrive at that conclusion.

[clwnuke]

18 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

How do you figure that?  I'm interested in your source, or the math you did, to arrive at that conclusion.

I'll post something more detailed in response when I can, but the numbers game comes down to the larger number of vaccinated people who are knowingly or unknowingly experiencing a transmissible breakthrough infection versus the minority of unvaccinated people experiencing a transmissible infection. It was previously assumed that the risk of breakthrough infection for fully vaccinated people was much smaller, and that their viral load would be much smaller as well. Most people heard those numbers first. 

However, the recent change in the CDC's masking guidance (about three-four weeks ago) was prompted by field research that found a much higher transmission rate among fully vaccinated groups (first in the NorthEast, but then everywhere including other countries), and viral load magnitudes similar to unvaccinated people, even in asymptomatic infections.

Hence, while vaccinated people are unlikely to experience hospitalization, they are a potent transmission vector while experiencing symptomatic or unsymptomatic breakthrough infections. They also happen to be the majority of people resulting in the current statistics.

The wild card in this particular discussion is what about the group of people that have had Covid, but are not vaccinated? In which group do they belong? I believe most researchers are classifying them in the breakthrough infection group for the most part. Perhaps they should be treated separately?

Edited August 24, 2021 by clwnuke
bad spelling

[Grunt]

42 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

But, to he fair, it’s also somewhat ironic (But these people also can’t grasp irony, like the smoker lecturing you about masks) when someone claims to be “pro life” yet has no problem possibly infecting others, especially the weak and vulnerable, with a potentially deadly disease. So both sides have their silliness, I guess. 

False equivalency.   I can be pro life and still recognize that living has associated risks.   I don't require people to wear HazMat suits out of fear that they may unknowingly have some illness that might kill me.   

I'm so sick of hearing "potentially deadly disease", too.   For the average, healthy person there is little risk from COVID.   Some demographics are at extreme risk.  Some demographics are at extreme risk of many things.   Those people should take precautions.   Heck, anyone that desires should take precautions.   But it's asinine to suggest that people don't care about the lives of others because they don't vaccinate or wear a face diaper.

[Grunt]

20 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

How do you figure that?  I'm interested in your source, or the math you did, to arrive at that conclusion.

https://www.vcuhealth.org/news/covid-19/breakthrough-infections-viral-load-what-does-this-mean-to-you

Essentially, breakthrough cases are rising fast.  A breakthrough case seems to have similar viral loads to an unvaccinated case, however they don't have the same symptoms, typically.  The "theory" is there are breakthrough cases walking around just as contagious as anyone else that gets it, but they don't even know they're contagious because they are either asymptomatic or have very few symptoms and a false sense of security due to vaccination.

[clwnuke]

21 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

How do you figure that?  I'm interested in your source, or the math you did, to arrive at that conclusion.

Closer to home, my Stake and Ward are monitoring COVID cases by month. Since I maintain that report from our ward I can anecdotally say for certain that the fully vaccinated individuals are about 70% of our current reported case load for July and August

[clwnuke]

https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/science-and-technology/2021/08/evidence-mounts-that-people-with-breakthrough-infections-can-spread-delta-easily

"The Wisconsin study analysed the nasal swabs from 719 cases of unvaccinated and fully vaccinated people who had all tested positive and found that 68 percent of the studied breakthrough patients had very high viral loads. High viral load is a sign that the virus is replicating, Gupta says.

To discover whether the nasal swabs had infectious virus, the Wisconsin researchers grew virus from 55 patient samples (from both vaccinated and unvaccinated people who tested positive) in special cells prone to SARS-CoV-2 infection. Grande’s team detected infectious virus in nearly everyone: from 88 percent of unvaccinated individuals and 95 percent of vaccinated people."

"If vaccinated people can still produce a lot of infectious viruses, it means they can spread the virus as easily as those who are not vaccinated."

[clwnuke]

43 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

How do you figure that?  I'm interested in your source, or the math you did, to arrive at that conclusion.

Were the previous replies and links helpful? If you are looking for more detailed research methodologies and clinical discussions I can try to post more information. Let me know. 

One of the most frustrating aspects of this pandemic has been the non-stop change in recommendations and guidance. IMHO the "experts" should be far more cautious in their declarations rather than reverse course constantly.

Stay safe out there!

[NeuroTypical]

34 minutes ago, clwnuke said:

Were the previous replies and links helpful?

Very much so, thanks.

46 minutes ago, clwnuke said:

Grande’s team detected infectious virus in nearly everyone: from 88 percent of unvaccinated individuals and 95 percent of vaccinated people."

Oh wow.   This bolsters my own thoughts that eventually, everyone on earth will "get" COVID.  Just like all humans on earth are the descendants of folks who eventually caught and survived the Spanish Flu, which eventually became much of the yearly flu that is with us always.  Perhaps COVID'll mutate to something less deadly by the time that happens - I hear from various places that's the normal evolution of a global pandemic-level virus. 

And it also verifies the claim made by any good zombie movie - there really is no place to hide.

Edited August 24, 2021 by NeuroTypical

[Grunt]

4 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Very much so, thanks.

Oh wow.   This bolsters my own thoughts that eventually, everyone on earth will "get" COVID.  Just like all humans on earth are the descendants of folks who eventually caught and survived the Spanish Flu, which eventually became much of the yearly flu that is with us always.  Perhaps COVID'll mutate to something less deadly by the time that happens - I hear from various places that's the normal evolution of a global pandemic-level virus. 

And it also verifies the claim made by any good zombie movie - there really is no place to hide.

Yeah.  Everyone is going to get this eventually, I'd imagine.

[clwnuke]

2 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Very much so, thanks.

Oh wow.   This bolsters my own thoughts that eventually, everyone on earth will "get" COVID.  Just like all humans on earth are the descendants of folks who eventually caught and survived the Spanish Flu.  Perhaps it'll mutate to something less deadly by the time that happens - I hear from various places that's the normal evolution of a global pandemic-level virus. 

And it also verifies the claim made by any good zombie movie - there really is no place to hide.

Makes one wonder if the Swedish had it right when they took the "everyone will get it anyway" path?

By the way, did you ever see the movie Contagion? That movie parallels this pandemic so closely it's scary!

[clwnuke]

1 hour ago, clwnuke said:

https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/science-and-technology/2021/08/evidence-mounts-that-people-with-breakthrough-infections-can-spread-delta-easily

Grande’s team detected infectious virus in nearly everyone: from 88 percent of unvaccinated individuals and 95 percent of vaccinated people."

"If vaccinated people can still produce a lot of infectious viruses, it means they can spread the virus as easily as those who are not vaccinated."

Oh, one last bummer related to this discovery - for months now the messaging has been "we need to get everyone vaccinated quickly to reduce the opportunity for the virus to further mutate!"  Unfortunately, with this new data showing that vaccinated and unvaccinated people are both virus reservoirs, vaccinations will not reduce the opportunities for mutation.  We are all living petri dishes now 😬.

[Anddenex]

Found this meme to be entertaining: