Requiring a COVID-19 Vaccine (shot/s)


Traveler
 Share

Recommended Posts

8 hours ago, Traveler said:

I will summarize this for you - those individual that have acquired T-cell immunity are immune to COVID for the rest of their life.  Antibodies; especially antibodies generated by the vaccine(s) are temporary treatments for COVID and cytokine storm.  A very important question - have you ever heard of the CDC, NIH or WHO testing or suggesting anyone be tested for T-cell immunity before requiring the vaccine?  One more very important question - is anyone (like Dr. Fauci)  involved in the higherups (management and control) of the CDC, NIH or WHO  connected directly to the profits made from production and distribution of the vaccines?

I see very little political (including media) difference in the disseminating of parcel information with such things as global warming (climate change) and a need for vaccine mandate.  It becomes not a matter of educating the public as it is a means to consolidate power and control.

 

The Traveler

I have to admit, I originally was also under the idea that when we got immunity from something, that immunity lasted for the rest of our lives overall.  An example is that I was immunized against Small Pox.  That immunity I think is supposed to last.

I had heard that with the flu, though we may gain immunity from one strain, it may not confer immunity to the other strains.

In this, it could apply to Covid-19 in that even if we got immunity from Beta, it may not be conferred for Delta, Gamma, or Lambda.  That said, that does not appear to be the catalogue of ideas currently in relation to Covid-19 and T-cell immunity.

Modern science appears that I may have been wrong in regards to vaccinations lasting for the rest of our lives though.

In regards to the measle vaccine and others it appears that it does wane over time.  It seems that the less exposure one has, the faster it wanes.

Measles decline of immunization over time study

It also appears that I may have been dealing with outdated information regarding immunization for a bit as it seem studies going back to at least 2002 were studying this.

Estimation of waning vaccine efficiency

From a Non-US source, as that way you won't think it is merely a United States thing, a study (and other research currently) suggests that the immunity to Covid-19 will wane, though in the study they were still trying to figure out exactly how long immunity lasts.

Covid-19 Immunity How long does it last

Now, from a US source, but highly respected (John Hopkins and the WHO) we see from the graphs of the study outcomes at around 4 months that immunity is still going on but there is some waning occurring among the variant aspects of immunities

Studies Forest Plots

So, it appears that immunity DOES wane over time even from the initial research into it for what it seems to be natural immunity as well as vaccine immunity. though I cannot say exactly why as I am not a Biomedical expert or even study in the field.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I have to admit, I originally was also under the idea that when we got immunity from something, that immunity lasted for the rest of our lives overall.  An example is that I was immunized against Small Pox.  That immunity I think is supposed to last.

I had heard that with the flu, though we may gain immunity from one strain, it may not confer immunity to the other strains.

In this, it could apply to Covid-19 in that even if we got immunity from Beta, it may not be conferred for Delta, Gamma, or Lambda.  That said, that does not appear to be the catalogue of ideas currently in relation to Covid-19 and T-cell immunity.

Modern science appears that I may have been wrong in regards to vaccinations lasting for the rest of our lives though.

In regards to the measle vaccine and others it appears that it does wane over time.  It seems that the less exposure one has, the faster it wanes.

Measles decline of immunization over time study

It also appears that I may have been dealing with outdated information regarding immunization for a bit as it seem studies going back to at least 2002 were studying this.

Estimation of waning vaccine efficiency

From a Non-US source, as that way you won't think it is merely a United States thing, a study (and other research currently) suggests that the immunity to Covid-19 will wane, though in the study they were still trying to figure out exactly how long immunity lasts.

Covid-19 Immunity How long does it last

Now, from a US source, but highly respected (John Hopkins and the WHO) we see from the graphs of the study outcomes at around 4 months that immunity is still going on but there is some waning occurring among the variant aspects of immunities

Studies Forest Plots

So, it appears that immunity DOES wane over time even from the initial research into it for what it seems to be natural immunity as well as vaccine immunity. though I cannot say exactly why as I am not a Biomedical expert or even study in the field.

It is my understanding that many things can effect immunity.  For example if someone becomes diabetic (or even pre-diabetic) - that can alter immune responses and so can medications.  It also seems that obesity has an effect on the immune system - especially in regards to COVID.  We also know that aging alters immune responses.

Regardless of the COVID variant, those at risk have largely remained the same.  The greatest risk is with the age (over 65), obesity, diabetic (type I or II) and respiratory issues - especially asthma, COPD or allergies.  There is also a risk for someone undergoing cancer treatment and various cardiovascular issues.  There may be other issues but this is not intended to be a complete list.  It would seem that regardless of having received the vaccine those at greatest risk remain at risk.  Regardless of the vaccine those not at risk can still carry the virus and antidotally suffer from the virus and even die.

I would add one other thing that is seldom found in any information (CNN, NPR, MSNBC, Tucker Carson or even various reliability of political rhetoric - This virus cannot be stopped even if every person in the world is vaccinated or otherwise has immunity - this is because this virus also exist in animal reservoirs - especially bats that exist in large numbers and travel over wide ranges.  We also know that wearing a mask and social distancing is not a cure nor prevention and at best will only delay an inevitable exposure. 

I also want to personally thank you for taking my thread over the 25 pages threshold.  If I die of COVID - I will have at least accomplished a record on this forum unlikely to be broken before Jesus returns and there is an interest in more eternal things.

 

The Traveler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, mirkwood said:

Spoiler alert: there’s always going to be another variant.

Yep, just as there is always another variant of the Flu. Sadly, this is the first time in my life time to see how easily particular narratives are using this as if a variant is something new. The Flu shot won't ever eradicate the Flu. Vaccines and boosters won't eradicate Covid. The worst part though, if Covid is truly the result of human failure -- which means all the lives lost are due to human's playing with things they still don't understand, which could have been avoided.

Edited by Anddenex
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

20 hours ago, mirkwood said:

Spoiler alert: there’s always going to be another variant.

 

18 hours ago, Anddenex said:

Yep, just as there is always another variant of the Flu. Sadly, this is the first time in my life time to see how easily particular narratives are using this as if a variant is something new. The Flu shot won't ever eradicate the Flu. Vaccines and boosters won't eradicate Covid. The worst part though, if Covid is truly the result of human failure -- which means all the lives lost are due to human's playing with things they still don't understand, which could have been avoided.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I wonder why after over 40 years no one has ever mentioned nor indicated any concern over any variant of the AID virus?  And yet in less than 2 years there is talk of hundreds of variants of COVID-19?  BTW both AIDS and COVID (according to the science) can induce a cytokine storm within the immune system.   I will admit that I do not have all the answers - and in some case hardly any answers - but the deeper I get into this "stuff" - I am overwhelmed with questions.  Especially concerning the "experts" (and their opinions) that have been studying COVID for more than a decade. 

 

The Traveler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Sorry - you are correct.  I have not heard of any concern over any variant of HIV which is the touted virus that causes AIDS.

 

The Traveler

No worries. 
 

https://www.avert.org/professionals/hiv-science/types-strains

Hope this helps. And yes, people have been worried about it for decades. 
 

Ironically it’s partially because of the evil, horrible Fauci that we know the cause of AIDS. So he saved countless lives. What a monster. 

Edited by LDSGator
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anthony Fauci said/did:

Quote

 

On May 11, Fauci testified before a Senate Committee that “the NIH has not ever and does not now fund gain-of-function research in the Wuhan Institute of Virology.”

On October 20, NIH wrote they funded an experiment at the Wuhan lab testing if “spike proteins from naturally occurring bat coronaviruses circulating in China were capable of binding to the human ACE2 receptor in a mouse model.” That is gain of function research.

Fauci’s statement and the NIH’s October 20 letter cannot both be true. The statements are directly contradictory.

18 USC 1001 makes it felony, punishable by up to 5 years in prison, to lie to Congress.


 

 

What a hero!

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, mirkwood said:

Anthony Fauci said/did:

  Quote

 

On May 11, Fauci testified before a Senate Committee that “the NIH has not ever and does not now fund gain-of-function research in the Wuhan Institute of Virology.”

On October 20, NIH wrote they funded an experiment at the Wuhan lab testing if “spike proteins from naturally occurring bat coronaviruses circulating in China were capable of binding to the human ACE2 receptor in a mouse model.” That is gain of function research.

Fauci’s statement and the NIH’s October 20 letter cannot both be true. The statements are directly contradictory.

18 USC 1001 makes it felony, punishable by up to 5 years in prison, to lie to Congress.

 

 

 

 

What a hero!

This is turning out to be an argument in semantics.   Fauci claims that unintended consequences from research does not meet the criteria for "gain of function research".  This means that the research organization and its governing body of individuals that oversaw and funded this research is at best irresponsible and incompetent.   

As an engineer (member of the scientific community) -- If I was involved in the design or implementation of a project (especially as a major contributor) that resulted in the loss of millions of people's lives (plus the suffering and other inconveniences) world wide - even if the results were unintended and unforeseen.   I do not think I would have the gull to claim that I am the science.  I cannot imagine a more mad scientist that is more involved in the deaths of humans world wide - with the possible exception of perhaps one of several Marvel Universe Comic characters.

 

The Traveler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

A little update.  I was curious with the state of Florida claiming to be the best at managing COVID.  They claim that when someone tests positive to COVID including any variant that if they have any signs of illness or if they are among those of any critical category for the virus that treatment with monoclonal antibodies is immediately initiated.    They claim that the data shows (science) that this treatment is better than attempting to get their population immunized.   They also claim that the numbers of those infected are near similar if they are vaccinated or not.  Florida also claims that per population that they have the lowest hospital and death rate of all states in the USA. 

I do no see any data - so I cannot respond directly but I do not hear any counter claims except that the number of infections in Florida are high.  The Florida health department counters with the fact that Florida not only has a higher population but that they are also a tourists destination and have not mandated masking or social distancing.   Again the claim is that the Florida remains much below average for COVID hospitalizations and death and the claim is because they have focused on treatment rather than the vaccine. 

If there is any possibility that monoclonal antibodies are an effective treatment - why at the federal level is vaccine only being pushed.  That is with the exception of masking and social distancing.   I have a sister and brother-in-law that are staunch Trump haters and 100% Democrats.  They both are in medical professions and think that the vaccine will save us from COVID - and their response is that there is not enough data for monoclonal antibodies.  My response to them was that I am not seeing sufficient data to claim anything associated with COVID.

They also suggest that when I was tested positive for COVID and never had symptoms that I was a false positive.  My response was that perhaps that was possible but I spend two days in close contact with a daughter and grandson that were infected and both developed symptoms within a couple of days of being with me.  And that during the two days we did not social distance or wear masks.  So if I was a false positive then social distancing and mask wearing is a false proctor and my false positive proves it.  I did not push it any farther because I want to remain on good terms with family.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Traveler said:

They also claim that the numbers of those infected are near similar if they are vaccinated or not. 

This is likely true, especially with the new strain out. The vaccine had been effective at reducing severity of symptoms and keeping people out of the hospital (and the morgue), kind of like a flu shot. And despite a considerable number of breakthrough cases, the data shows that the vaccine is effective at preventing infection.

Screenshot_20211218-082514_Chrome.thumb.jpg.2574b87e737b49227e61bd3873b884d5.jpg

Quote

Florida also claims that per population that they have the lowest hospital and death rate of all states in the USA. 

The death rate claim is false. It's likely that the current death rate is low, but that wasn't always the case by any means.

Screenshot_20211218-073846_Chrome.thumb.jpg.87a3141feec18fcb0e0522c9fb641df5.jpg

I couldn't find comparative data for hospitalizations, though it looks like current hospitalization numbers are low in Florida. Omicron appears to be hitting the northern states the hardest at the moment, which makes sense considering that NY was apparently ground zero for the Omicron spread in the US.

Quote

I do no see any data - so I cannot respond directly but I do not hear any counter claims except that the number of infections in Florida are high.  The Florida health department counters with the fact that Florida not only has a higher population but that they are also a tourists destination and have not mandated masking or social distancing.   Again the claim is that the Florida remains much below average for COVID hospitalizations and death and the claim is because they have focused on treatment rather than the vaccine. 

Again, current numbers are low in Florida, but overall case numbers throughout the pandemic are high. And a higher population actually makes that statistic worse, considering that the states with the highest per capita case counts are generally the least populated. Florida is 17 on that list, higher than any of the other top 5 populous US states. And the tourism aspect just means that Florida is likely a catalyst for spread in other parts of the country. Omicron is new, so it's likely that we'll see shifts in geographical infection rates in the coming weeks, especially after the holidays. I'm hoping that the vaccine will mediate the severity in relation to previous spikes, but the data in northern states isn't promising.

Screenshot_20211218-074035_Chrome.thumb.jpg.6bb031105e1ba77647d51ab9c6656dd3.jpg

Quote

I have a sister and brother-in-law that are staunch Trump haters and 100% Democrats.  They both are in medical professions and think that the vaccine will save us from COVID - and their response is that there is not enough data for monoclonal antibodies.  My response to them was that I am not seeing sufficient data to claim anything associated with COVID.

They also suggest that when I was tested positive for COVID and never had symptoms that I was a false positive.  My response was that perhaps that was possible but I spend two days in close contact with a daughter and grandson that were infected and both developed symptoms within a couple of days of being with me.  And that during the two days we did not social distance or wear masks.  So if I was a false positive then social distancing and mask wearing is a false proctor and my false positive proves it.  I did not push it any farther because I want to remain on good terms with family.

 

The Traveler

I'm not a doctor and I obviously don't know the details about your interactions with your family members, but based on the information you've provided, my guess is that it's unlikely that your test was a false positive. I'm not sure what your sister and BIL are basing their assumption on, but asymptomatic cases are far from unheard of.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/18/2021 at 7:49 AM, Godless said:

This is likely true, especially with the new strain out. The vaccine had been effective at reducing severity of symptoms and keeping people out of the hospital (and the morgue), kind of like a flu shot. And despite a considerable number of breakthrough cases, the data shows that the vaccine is effective at preventing infection.

Screenshot_20211218-082514_Chrome.thumb.jpg.2574b87e737b49227e61bd3873b884d5.jpg

The death rate claim is false. It's likely that the current death rate is low, but that wasn't always the case by any means.

Screenshot_20211218-073846_Chrome.thumb.jpg.87a3141feec18fcb0e0522c9fb641df5.jpg

I couldn't find comparative data for hospitalizations, though it looks like current hospitalization numbers are low in Florida. Omicron appears to be hitting the northern states the hardest at the moment, which makes sense considering that NY was apparently ground zero for the Omicron spread in the US.

Again, current numbers are low in Florida, but overall case numbers throughout the pandemic are high. And a higher population actually makes that statistic worse, considering that the states with the highest per capita case counts are generally the least populated. Florida is 17 on that list, higher than any of the other top 5 populous US states. And the tourism aspect just means that Florida is likely a catalyst for spread in other parts of the country. Omicron is new, so it's likely that we'll see shifts in geographical infection rates in the coming weeks, especially after the holidays. I'm hoping that the vaccine will mediate the severity in relation to previous spikes, but the data in northern states isn't promising.

Screenshot_20211218-074035_Chrome.thumb.jpg.6bb031105e1ba77647d51ab9c6656dd3.jpg

I'm not a doctor and I obviously don't know the details about your interactions with your family members, but based on the information you've provided, my guess is that it's unlikely that your test was a false positive. I'm not sure what your sister and BIL are basing their assumption on, but asymptomatic cases are far from unheard of.

As I understand the stats you have provided - they are for the duration of the pandemic.  I am more interested what has happened since the vaccine(s) have become available to the entire population and how that compares with those receiving treatments of monoclonal antibodies but have not received any of the vaccines.  What I am hearing as of today is that monoclonal antibodies is more effective in treating the virus than the vaccine(s).  I have yet to see any data that demonstrates that the vaccine is more effective than the monoclonal antibodies.

I am becoming skeptical that this country (at the federal level) is making a real effort to solve the problem and is more likely to respond to profits being made in big pharma. 

 

The Traveler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, Traveler said:

As I understand the stats you have provided - they are for the duration of the pandemic.  I am more interested what has happened since the vaccine(s) have become available to the entire population and how that compares with those receiving treatments of monoclonal antibodies but have not received any of the vaccines.  What I am hearing as of today is that monoclonal antibodies is more effective in treating the virus than the vaccine(s).  I have yet to see any data that demonstrates that the vaccine is more effective than the monoclonal antibodies.

You're comparing a preventative treatment to a curative one. And if it's true that vaccinated individuals are experiencing less severe COVID symptoms than unvaxxed, then it's unlikely that vaxxed COVID patients will receive hospital treatment to the extent that unvaxxed will. So I don't know how the comparison you're looking for is possible. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/20/2021 at 3:49 PM, Traveler said:

As I understand the stats you have provided - they are for the duration of the pandemic.  I am more interested what has happened since the vaccine(s) have become available to the entire population and how that compares with those receiving treatments of monoclonal antibodies but have not received any of the vaccines.  What I am hearing as of today is that monoclonal antibodies is more effective in treating the virus than the vaccine(s).  I have yet to see any data that demonstrates that the vaccine is more effective than the monoclonal antibodies.

I am becoming skeptical that this country (at the federal level) is making a real effort to solve the problem and is more likely to respond to profits being made in big pharma. 

 

The Traveler

The first part of your statement is the crux of all the data. Data, stats can be easily manipulated toward narrative. I place little trust in statistics with regards to a pandemic that has been politically and narrative motivated. There isn't many places you can trust, as you read the article and the bias comes outwardly clear.

Similar to Joe Rogan and how the media and many others, even on here, followed narrative rather than recognizing the treatment that helped. But the narrative and vax (although people are still dying with the vax) is more important than treatment.

Edited by Anddenex
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/20/2021 at 4:42 PM, Godless said:

You're comparing a preventative treatment to a curative one. And if it's true that vaccinated individuals are experiencing less severe COVID symptoms than unvaxxed, then it's unlikely that vaxxed COVID patients will receive hospital treatment to the extent that unvaxxed will. So I don't know how the comparison you're looking for is possible. 

If good data were actually kept on this then the comparison he is looking for would be possible. It should be a simple matter to track what treatments are given to whom and what outcomes happen. I realize that good data is sadly a big ask and definitely too much to wish for in the age of Covid stupidity where any option besides the vaccines is largely dismissed and the vaccines are held on a pedestal they don't deserve. One would think with the epic failures of the vaccines to prevent infection and transmission to the point that they are being touted as merely a tool for reducing more severe outcomes that other treatment options would be welcomed, but instead they are censored and every effort made to suppress data on whether such treatments help while the narrative is to continue to push the failed vaccines as the only way forward.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/22/2021 at 11:41 PM, SpiritDragon said:

If good data were actually kept on this then the comparison he is looking for would be possible. It should be a simple matter to track what treatments are given to whom and what outcomes happen. I realize that good data is sadly a big ask and definitely too much to wish for in the age of Covid stupidity where any option besides the vaccines is largely dismissed and the vaccines are held on a pedestal they don't deserve. One would think with the epic failures of the vaccines to prevent infection and transmission to the point that they are being touted as merely a tool for reducing more severe outcomes that other treatment options would be welcomed, but instead they are censored and every effort made to suppress data on whether such treatments help while the narrative is to continue to push the failed vaccines as the only way forward.

In light of a previous conversation SpiritDragon, this type of bill that appears to have been removed, due to the backlash received, is in part why I contemplate if President Nelson's vaccine invitation is for this type of government action also (an attempt to keep the members safe): A.416. The vague definition of "temporary" and other factors within this bill are truly scary and how easily the natural man (corrupted man) could use this for evil purposes.

Edited by Anddenex
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Anddenex said:

In light of a previous conversation SpiritDragon, this type of bill that appears to have been removed, due to the backlash received, is in part why I contemplate if President Nelson's vaccine invitation is for this type of government action also (an attempt to keep the members safe): A.416. The vague definition of "temporary" and other factors within this bill are truly scary and how easily the natural man (corrupted man) could use this for evil purposes.

That is terrifying. We all always pose a potential risk of spreading communicable disease, and disease has always been among us. Let's just cede more power to the government to interfere in our lives, yeesh.

As for the reference to the prior conversation, I thank you for your input. I'm undecided on where I stand with that issue still and perhaps border on the side of apostasy in my beliefs, so I'll keep those thoughts to myself - although I have formed them through scripture study and some prayer. Either way, I appreciate the apologetic approach and have wrestled with various iterations of how this could be. I suppose, in many ways it comes back to a much earlier conversation (circa 2012ish) wherein I expressed concerns over personal interpretation of spiritual answers. It's hard because if I'm supposed to follow personal revelation and follow the prophet and the two don't agree, which is wrong? Either my personal revelation upon which my testimony was originally developed is askew calling in to question the validity of anything moving forward, or something else entirely and I just don't know.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, SpiritDragon said:

.....

It's hard because if I'm supposed to follow personal revelation and follow the prophet and the two don't agree, which is wrong? Either my personal revelation upon which my testimony was originally developed is askew calling in to question the validity of anything moving forward, or something else entirely and I just don't know.

I suggest keeping a journal for your own benefit.  Often our impressions of our thoughts (personal revelation) evolve over time.  I would reference a talk by Elder Dieter F. Uchtdorf.  When there is not a sure reference people tend to travel in circles rather than a straight line.  I believe this happens with personal revelation as well.  If there is not a immovable reference point there is a tendency to drift off course and become lost - meaning you are not positioned as you think you are.

I believe this is a problem with COVID as well.  Our political leaders have no point of reference and as correct as they think their are - their direction is quite confusing.

 

The Traveler

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/31/2021 at 10:23 AM, SpiritDragon said:

I suppose, in many ways it comes back to a much earlier conversation (circa 2012ish) wherein I expressed concerns over personal interpretation of spiritual answers. It's hard because if I'm supposed to follow personal revelation and follow the prophet and the two don't agree, which is wrong? Either my personal revelation upon which my testimony was originally developed is askew calling in to question the validity of anything moving forward, or something else entirely and I just don't know.

As to my studies and experiences here are items my mind's eye ponders:
1. Is this really a right or wrong scenario, or can both be right?
2. The contrast depend on the doctrine.
3. What have the scriptures taught regarding contrasting revelations?
4. What is the written counsel in comparison with verbal counsel?

The first is simply recognizing that both can be right, especially when the Prophet -- at this time -- is the Prophet for the whole world. In that light, he gives counsel to all members who are within socialists and other forms of government. I think the Prophet, in our day, is in the most peculiar situation than any other prophet. We teach the Article of Faith #12 and the Church abides by this, especially for members in Communist countries.

The second is recognizing what counsel/doctrine does personal revelation contrast? If a person received revelation that SSM is good (just an easy doctrine to contrast), the doctrine is pretty clear on that. It doesn't require a deep poignant thought to recognize where that personal revelation came from. It isn't the Lord. In another thread another easy one is the personal revelation that the Book of Mormon isn't the word of God, which is in clear contrast/opposition to what the Lord actually said he would do. If a brother said they received revelation that having sex before marriage, with future wife the day before wedding, was his will...well, again, we can clearly see that isn't going to be the case and the personal revelation was not from God.

The third brings up Nephi and Laban. If our personal revelation truly appears to contrast doctrine/counsel from the prophet, then like Nephi, we have every right to further witness from the Lord to know that our witness is truly from him. As imperfect beings, we are all still learning the principle of revelation and our revelation is not always perfect. I remember receiving a revelation that something would happen 9 years from that date. It is 5 years past that date and nothing happened. I never told anyone because I wasn't sure myself. I just kept it to myself. But as sons and daughters of God we have every right to request further light and knowledge, further witness like Nephi, in these situations so we can move forward with confidence -- while ignoring the finger of scorn of others.

As with President Nelson's invitation/counsel, it compliments and contradicts the Handbook. What is written, verses what is verbally spoken. The Handbook specifically tells us to take the matter to the Lord, personally revelation. In that light, they compliment. The invitation is to take the vaccine and the Handbook says to make it a matter of prayer and personal revelation. As this is something that can actually harm my body (its not the same as the Word of Wisdom), and it reacts differently to each individual, the counsel for personal revelation trumps the invitation if God says, "Don't, it isn't for you." The invitation/counsel in the Handbook pretty much follows Doctrine and Covenants 9:8-9.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
On 1/13/2022 at 1:24 PM, LDSGator said:

Unless government funding is involved.

 

The Traveler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • pam unfeatured this topic

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share