Humanity's options?


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Are the only possibly outcomes of the plan of salvation either 1) dependence on God, or 2) damnation? It seems to me that no matter how a person lives their lives, either with perfect uprightness and integrity, or as the very vilest of sinners, or anywhere in between, dependence or damnation seem to be the only possible outcomes. Is there anything else?

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I wonder about the term 'dependence'.  Our reliance on God's grace and the atoning sacrifice of Christ for our sins - I suppose that's the definition of dependence.  But if the word seems to have a non-positive aspect to it, I don't really see the plan of salvation as any sort of a negative.  

Is there a problem with being dependent on a loving Father in Heaven for eternal life?

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4 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

I wonder about the term 'dependence'.  Our reliance on God's grace and the atoning sacrifice of Christ for our sins - I suppose that's the definition of dependence.  But if the word seems to have a non-positive aspect to it, I don't really see the plan of salvation as any sort of a negative.  

Is there a problem with being dependent on a loving Father in Heaven for eternal life?

As a general rule, I think that independence is a better condition than dependence. I'm not sure if there are exceptions to that rule, but I'm open to the idea that there might be. 

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7 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Wierd question.  What do you mean by dependence on God?

 

 

The condition of dependence implies a lack of control over aspects of our existence that are important to us. It suggests that there are things we are unable to do. It suggests limitations. In some cases it might imply subservience, or being subordinate. Used in another context, whatever joy, happiness, peace, etc we might experience in this life or the next is dependent on our obedience to His will. 

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Just as a child is dependent on his parents until he leaves home and can be self-sufficient and capable of taking care of him/herself, the same applies with our Heavenly Father. We are going to be dependent on Him for a very long time, even after death, until we have sufficiently climbed the ladder of light and truth and reached "the perfect day". Then when we have reached the same level of omnipotence and omniscience as Him, I believe we will no longer be dependent on God.

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On 5/26/2021 at 8:03 PM, askandanswer said:

The condition of dependence implies a lack of control over aspects of our existence that are important to us. It suggests that there are things we are unable to do.

I'm going to give you a different perspective on the three degrees of glory.  You can accept it or ignore it.  What I'm about to say is somewhat supported by the scriptural references to what qualifies us for which degree of glory.  But it is ONLY a perspective.  It is not meant to be doctrinal.  However, it is that perspective that you seem to be digging into.  So, here goes:

  • The "lost" (Perdition) crave darkness and eschew the light.  They will not accept light even when forced.  It is too contrary to their nature.
  • Telestials desire the darkness, but will submit to the light if forced.
  • Terrestrials like the light, but only follow it as long as it isn't too difficult.
  • Celestials crave the light.  And they will do anything and everything to go towards it.

There is nothing in this perspective about "dependence".  There is nothing about "control".  There is nothing about "ability".  It is entirely about our desires and our choices.

No matter what we do, we are still bound by choice and consequence.  Just because we cannot change the consequences of our choices, does that mean we have no abilities?  No, we just don't have the ability to change the fundamental truths of eternity.

So, no, you're not going to be able to sin to your heart's content and find yourself in Celestial Glory with glory added upon your head forever and ever.  But you'll probably be very happy in the Telestial Kingdom, because that is what you really wanted in your heart.

Edited by Carborendum
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I often cringe when I hear the term "self-reliant" because it seems so contrary to the teaching of submitting to the Lord in all things.  We are supposed to rely on Him.  I can't approach the Father without Jesus.  I am completely dependent on Him.  That's just the way it is.  Now, can we get to a point where we are not dependent on Him?  Maybe, in the Celestial Kingdom, but I think not.  

Another thought...we are subject to gravity.  But that doesn't mean given the right equipment, thrust, lift, other aviation terms, that we can't leave the surface of the earth.  Being dependent on God doesn't limit us, it is how we 'fly'.

 

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It seems like you have one foot in the door concerning God’s Plan of Salvation.

We were given the opportunity to enter into this realm of mortality and all of us fought for the right and celebrated our victory over Lucifer during the pre-mortal existence.

Give yourself some credit.  Trust that before having your pre-mortal memories wiped, you had more information and made the right decision.

The opportunities that you now enjoy are endless in scope.

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On 5/26/2021 at 12:21 PM, askandanswer said:

Are the only possibly outcomes of the plan of salvation either 1) dependence on God, or 2) damnation? It seems to me that no matter how a person lives their lives, either with perfect uprightness and integrity, or as the very vilest of sinners, or anywhere in between, dependence or damnation seem to be the only possible outcomes. Is there anything else?

Is the only possible outcome to live either dependency on the sun or death? Will the day come when I will no longer need tote sun to grow crops or feel warm?

I say that not to belittle your question or to blow it off, but to reframe it. Remember that we are dependent on Christ because he fulfilled the law. Our entire existence is governed by law. One law says we need the sun to grow food and feel warm. I think Christ’s atonement and it’s effect on Us is just as all encompassing as the effects of the sun. It is the sun that allows me to choose what restaurant to go to. Without the sun, I cannot tell my daughter I love her. Without the sun, I cannot fulfill my calling. Even when I can’t see it, it’s effect gives me everything I have.
 

I believe Christ is similar. I believe his enabling power is far more encompassing than we realize. It is as necessary as the sun, oxygen, water, etc.

would you say your dependency on water and oxygen in this life is problematic?

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The word dependency can be used in few different ways.  @mikbone correctly pointed out that we are always dependent on oxygen, water, physics, etc.  but that is usually not what we mean when we say an infant is dependent, but an adult is independent.  In that case we mean that the person can acquire/fulfill their dependency(in the first sense) without help.

For example infants should be independently acquiring oxygen from the very beginning or there is serious problem, but they will not be independently acquiring water or food until they older.  Thus we consider infants and children dependent in a way that adult are not.  Thus we could say that independence is the ablity to acquiring ones dependency from the surrounding environment.  The environment has to be there.

But there is more then just dependence and independence.  There is also interdependence.  If you have to spend all day gathering/hunting food you are not going to get much else done.  So you work with others, you trust others, you depend on others and they depend on you. That gets us families and villages and nations.

The Gospel is the same, God creates the environment that we all depend on.  We are then expected/required to act within that sphere (agency) and form Families, churches, Zion (interdependence)

 It also works on a very personal level.  God supports our very existence, every breath we take (dependency).  He wants us to come to him (independent). And to covenant with him (interdependent)    

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