Full and complete lesson on modesty?


Fether
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7 hours ago, Carborendum said:

So, why do you feel like nothing else was ever really stressed?  I certainly hear a LOT of other things being stressed.  And if there really are a LOT of things being stressed, is anything really being "stressed"?  Maybe we see what we want to see?

I grew up being taught that modesty was about woman’s shorts, tank tops, and cleavage. It also includes dressing in appropriate clothing for activities.

I once wore skinny jeans and a We Came as Romans shirt to a stake youth choir practice and there were no issues. But if a girl shows up with short shorts or an immodest swimsuit to a youth activity, they weren’t allowed in. The modesty restrictions are applied far more heavily on woman than men.

I feel like it is not a controversial statement to say modesty is focused on girls

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22 minutes ago, Fether said:

I once wore skinny jeans and a We Came as Romans shirt to a stake youth choir practice and there were no issues. But if a girl shows up with short shorts or an immodest swimsuit to a youth activity, they weren’t allowed in. The modesty restrictions are applied far more heavily on woman than men.

Were young women ever excluded from a stake youth choir practice for wearing skinny jeans and a We Came as Romans shirt? Did you ever try attending a youth activity wearing short shorts or an immodest swimsuit? If not, then the claim of your last sentence is unsupported by your examples.

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17 minutes ago, Vort said:

Were young women ever excluded from a stake youth choir practice for wearing skinny jeans and a We Came as Romans shirt? Did you ever try attending a youth activity wearing short shorts or an immodest swimsuit? If not, then the claim of your last sentence is unsupported by your examples.

True. So I guess the answer is just that because woman are encouraged to wear more immodest clothing. The reason for the lesser attention given to other aspects of modesty is due to how it isn’t as important. I don’t remember ever being taught in class that over eating is breaking the word of wisdom, but we do focus on the points of the law that have a larger affect on us.

Its a matter of degree

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36 minutes ago, Fether said:

I feel like it is not a controversial statement to say modesty is focused on girls

I'll add my experience to the anecdata. The Aaronic Priesthood quorums I was in would have lessons based on the standards in the For the Strength of Youth pamphlet. No girls were present. I knew how long my shorts needed to be to attend youth activities. I knew that my shirts needed sleeves.

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@LDSGator This is my take (my apologies but I didn't read all the replies). Generally speaking, I agree that men are perhaps more "responsive" to visual stimulus than women but I don't believe it should be used as a reason and/or excuse to ask women to dress modesty so men will stop having sexual thoughts. We need to be careful than in our zeal to speak about this very important topic, we don't end up contributing to the objectification of women since as we all know it, modesty goes beyond short skirts and tight pants. In doing the opposite, we are actually throwing the responsibility to be chaste into the shoulders of young women because young men "cannot help themselves".

Elder Holland gave a powerful speech about responsibility and he said this:

"I’ve heard all my life that it is the young woman who has to assume the responsibility for controlling the limits of intimacy in courtship because a young man cannot. Seldom have I heard any point made on this subject that makes me want to throw up more than that.

What kind of man is he, what priesthood or power or strength or self-control does this man have that lets him develop in society, grow to the age of mature accountability, perhaps even pursue a university education and prepare to affect the future of colleagues and kingdoms and the course of this world, but yet does not have the mental capacity or the moral will to say, "I will not do that thing".

No, this sorry drugstore psychology would have him say, "I just can't help myself. My glands have complete control over my entire life, my mind, my will, my very future."

To say that a young woman in such a relationship has to bear her responsibility and that of his too is the most discriminatory doctrine I have ever heard...."

 

Even though it is not about modesty, the point remains the same. I have no issue whatsoever to ask  women to be modest (and of course men too), I think it is very important issue and as a woman myself, I always ensure to look professional and modest in all my meetings. I just don't believe we should ask anybody to do this for the wrong reasons.

 

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18 minutes ago, Suzie said:

@LDSGator This is my take (my apologies but I didn't read all the replies). Generally speaking, I agree that men are perhaps more "responsive" to visual stimulus than women but I don't believe it should be used as a reason and/or excuse to ask women to dress modesty so men will stop having sexual thoughts. We need to be careful than in our zeal to speak about this very important topic, we don't end up contributing to the objectification of women since as we all know it, modesty goes beyond short skirts and tight pants. In doing the opposite, we are actually throwing the responsibility to be chaste into the shoulders of young women because young men "cannot help themselves".

Elder Holland gave a powerful speech about responsibility and he said this:

"I’ve heard all my life that it is the young woman who has to assume the responsibility for controlling the limits of intimacy in courtship because a young man cannot. Seldom have I heard any point made on this subject that makes me want to throw up more than that.

What kind of man is he, what priesthood or power or strength or self-control does this man have that lets him develop in society, grow to the age of mature accountability, perhaps even pursue a university education and prepare to affect the future of colleagues and kingdoms and the course of this world, but yet does not have the mental capacity or the moral will to say, "I will not do that thing".

No, this sorry drugstore psychology would have him say, "I just can't help myself. My glands have complete control over my entire life, my mind, my will, my very future."

To say that a young woman in such a relationship has to bear her responsibility and that of his too is the most discriminatory doctrine I have ever heard...."

 

Even though it is not about modesty, the point remains the same. I have no issue whatsoever to ask  women to be modest (and of course men too), I think it is very important issue and as a woman myself, I always ensure to look professional and modest in all my meetings. I just don't believe we should ask anybody to do this for the wrong reasons.

 

Thank you @Suzie

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A few (oh, now it's been 5-6)years ago, I had a calling with the Teaches in young men.  When we would have joint activities at the park, there was a group of 4-5 priests who would always take their shirts off.  At first, since they weren't under my jurisdiction, I didn't do anything.  After seeing it happen a couple more times, I would always ask them to put their shirts back on.  At first they looked perplexed, like they couldn't comprehend that they should have a shirt on at a church activity, but after a few times, it stopped happening.  

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20 hours ago, Suzie said:

"I’ve heard all my life that it is the young woman who has to assume the responsibility for controlling the limits of intimacy in courtship because a young man cannot. Seldom have I heard any point made on this subject that makes me want to throw up more than that.

What kind of man is he, what priesthood or power or strength or self-control does this man have that lets him develop in society, grow to the age of mature accountability, perhaps even pursue a university education and prepare to affect the future of colleagues and kingdoms and the course of this world, but yet does not have the mental capacity or the moral will to say, "I will not do that thing".

No, this sorry drugstore psychology would have him say, "I just can't help myself. My glands have complete control over my entire life, my mind, my will, my very future."

To say that a young woman in such a relationship has to bear her responsibility and that of his too is the most discriminatory doctrine I have ever heard...."

This is 100% true.  I don't think anyone here has said anything to the contrary.

If I lose my temper it is 100% my responsibility that I didn't keep a lid on it.

If someone eases me, taunts me, and harrasses me to no end, even using racial slurs that would make my wife blush, and I lose my temper, it is still 100% my fault for losing my temper.  But do we think the one taunting me did nothing wrong?

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21 hours ago, Suzie said:

@LDSGator This is my take (my apologies but I didn't read all the replies). Generally speaking, I agree that men are perhaps more "responsive" to visual stimulus than women but I don't believe it should be used as a reason and/or excuse to ask women to dress modesty so men will stop having sexual thoughts. We need to be careful than in our zeal to speak about this very important topic, we don't end up contributing to the objectification of women since as we all know it, modesty goes beyond short skirts and tight pants. In doing the opposite, we are actually throwing the responsibility to be chaste into the shoulders of young women because young men "cannot help themselves".

Elder Holland gave a powerful speech about responsibility and he said this:

"I’ve heard all my life that it is the young woman who has to assume the responsibility for controlling the limits of intimacy in courtship because a young man cannot. Seldom have I heard any point made on this subject that makes me want to throw up more than that.

What kind of man is he, what priesthood or power or strength or self-control does this man have that lets him develop in society, grow to the age of mature accountability, perhaps even pursue a university education and prepare to affect the future of colleagues and kingdoms and the course of this world, but yet does not have the mental capacity or the moral will to say, "I will not do that thing".

No, this sorry drugstore psychology would have him say, "I just can't help myself. My glands have complete control over my entire life, my mind, my will, my very future."

To say that a young woman in such a relationship has to bear her responsibility and that of his too is the most discriminatory doctrine I have ever heard...."

 

Even though it is not about modesty, the point remains the same. I have no issue whatsoever to ask  women to be modest (and of course men too), I think it is very important issue and as a woman myself, I always ensure to look professional and modest in all my meetings. I just don't believe we should ask anybody to do this for the wrong reasons.

 

I agree.

The conversation of woman and modesty isn’t a point of blame on who is responsible for the inappropriate thoughts. It’s a point of (1) being dignified and (2) bearing one another’s burdens (which is very different from being responsible for one another’s burdens)

I do think you would be hard pressed to find anyone today who would blame an immodestly dressed woman for the thoughts of men Around them. It happens, sure, but they are a minority. I may be wrong, but so think most of the Saints have progressed beyond this.

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If someone eases me, taunts me, and harrasses me to no end, even using racial slurs that would make my wife blush, and I lose my temper, it is still 100% my fault for losing my temper.  But do we think the one taunting me did nothing wrong?

I think the last part is interesting based on what I was sharing previously in connection with this topic.  Some men seem to have the notion that women dress in a certain way to "tempt" them and "they should be held responsible for that". In my view, it shows a lack of understanding about women's behavior but also it shows delusion of grandeur.

Generally speaking, women dress for other women. Not for men.

Having said that, I never heard anyone telling a man to stop dressing in a certain way because they're tempting women. "You're too sexy, stop it!"

We are all big boys and big girls, we all should be modest in everything we do 100% agree but let's us not shift responsibilities here. If I turn on my computer and decide to watch porn, should I require the actors to take responsibility for 'tempting' me?

One of my favorite phrases is: If it bothers you, you are probably staring too much.

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9 hours ago, Suzie said:

Having said that, I never heard anyone telling a man to stop dressing in a certain way because they're tempting women. "You're too sexy, stop it!"

Agreed we don't hear it... But is it a double standard?  Or is it a simple reality that women's temptations do not go that direction?  After all when we think porn we think videos and pictures that men are the primary targets for and consume in large quantities.  We don't generally think trashy romance novels that women are the primary targets for and consume in large quantities.  Yet both appeal to the same base desire of the natural man/woman.

9 hours ago, Suzie said:

One of my favorite phrases is: If it bothers you, you are probably staring too much.

Yes to a point.  Those with stewardship have to look and have to make judgements.  Because they have to teach and correct.  If we are not willing to teach correct principles and standards... then the world will teach their standards to our sorrow.  This is why we have (and enforce) standards.  Not because we want to name and shame, but to teach and uplift.

Sadly to many take this into unrighteous judgement levels, which then drives the movement to remove any judgment on the subject.

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11 hours ago, Suzie said:

I think the last part is interesting based on what I was sharing previously in connection with this topic.  Some men seem to have the notion that women dress in a certain way to "tempt" them and "they should be held responsible for that". In my view, it shows a lack of understanding about women's behavior but also it shows delusion of grandeur.

Not at all.

My roommate just played lout music ALL THE TIME.  And when I asked him to turn it down, he said,"That's just how I play my music, dude.  I'm not doing it to irritate you."  It seemed to make no difference that he'd do it at 1:00 am while most people try to sleep.

Just because they aren't doing it to tempt, doesn't mean that it doesn't affect those around them.

It's the same for mask wearing (I wasn't the first one to bring it up).  I really do have a breathing problem.  It is difficult for me to wear a mask.  But if someone I'm dealing with feels uncomfortable and asks politely, I am going to do my best to wear a mask in their presence out of courtesy.  And there really is no reason for me to wear one when I'm already immune. But they still feel uncomfortable.

I love kim chee.  So does my family.  So we're good.  But when my wife was pregnant, she couldn't stand the smell.  So, during those times, I made an effort to not indulge.  And most guests don't like it either.  So, I make an effort to not have kim chee when guests are over.

We all NEED to go to the bathroom.  We have to expose ourselves to do so.  But we're not trying to flash anyone.  We just need to do it.  Does that mean that there shouldn't be privies to do the deed?  Can't we just have a toilet in the middle of the office?

I want to have sex with my wife.  One could say that we're SUPPOSED to have sex.  But do we do it in front of people?  We're not trying to be provocative.  We're just doing what married people do.

A certain young woman in an old ward decided to dress as Black Widow for Halloween.  The costume was of thinner material than ScarJo's outfit.  It made it cheaper, and more available to the masses.  It also made the outfit extremely form fitting and... you get the idea.

She was just wearing it because it was a "cool costume".  Do you think the YM in the ward simply said,"Hey, cool outfit." and then moved on?  No, nearly every young man in the ward was gathered around her wherever she went.

Remember, I still think it is 100% the young men's fault for not controlling themselves.  They should have done the decent thing and simply said, "Hey, cool outfit," then moved on.  That was on them.  But did she really do nothing wrong?  I'd say she did.  She was being immodest.

The thing here is that there seems to be undue "blame" on the boys for not controlling themselves.  And, again, they should be blamed for THEIR actions and maybe even REactions.  But your position seems to be of one that says that the "standards of modest dress" is something we shouldn't be teaching.  It is as if this is NOT a sin at all.  There is NOTHING wrong with being immodest in one's dress while in public.  I disagree.

There is something wrong with the boys not being able to control their reactions.  So, we DO teach that principle to the YM.  Trust me, we teach it a LOT.  And there seems to be NO push back on the need to teach it.

There is also something wrong with women who like to dress sexy and provocative only to hide behind the notion of "freedom of dress" (for lack of another term).  Should we not be teaching this principle?

No, girls, go ahead and walk around in a mono-kini to school and it is totally the boys' fault for looking at you while at school.  (And I'd dare say, most of the girls would be looking too... albeit for a different reason.)

 

Edited by Carborendum
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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

t's the same for mask wearing (I wasn't the first one to bring it up).  I really do have a breathing problem.  It is difficult for me to wear a mask.  But if someone I'm dealing with feels uncomfortable and asks politely, I am going to do my best to wear a mask in their presence out of courtesy.  And there really is no reason for me to wear one when I'm already immune. But they still feel uncomfortable

That’s really good of you. I know of many who feel the same way about masks that you do who would, sadly, just throw a temper tantrum. 

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But your position seems to be of one that says that the "standards of modest dress" is something we shouldn't be teaching. 

Not at all. I'm clarifying the misconception that young women/women dress to "tempt" men. Just like in the case of the young woman in your ward, she did it because it was a "cool" costume. Was it immodest? Absolutely. I have 0 issues with teaching about modesty, I just don't believe in teaching it for the wrong reasons. The wrong reason will be "You shouldn't wear this costume because you will cause our YM to have bad/sexual thoughts and they will follow you around".

In my last statement I said "if it bothers you, you are probably staring too much". The reality is that we interact with non-members on a daily basis. They don't have our same values, they will dress and act according to the world and there is no much we can do about that. Having said that, if I choose to engage in a particular behavior, it is on ME 100%. I don't believe in the concept of "but her outfit was too revealing..."  "but she was showing off her body..." and the like. The only thing missing is "Satan made me do it".

I BELIEVE in modesty, we just need to be careful about the reasons we give.

Edited by Suzie
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Agreed we don't hear it... But is it a double standard?  Or is it a simple reality that women's temptations do not go that direction?  After all when we think porn we think videos and pictures that men are the primary targets for and consume in large quantities.  We don't generally think trashy romance novels that women are the primary targets for and consume in large quantities.  Yet both appeal to the same base desire of the natural man/woman.

Women's temptations do go that direction. Generally speaking, I think there is a clear lack of awareness on this topic. Yes, when we think of porn we think about males as the primary targets and women consuming trashy romance novels but there has been a very concerning trend for years of young women particularly  consuming more and more porn daily.

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1 hour ago, Suzie said:

But your position seems to be of one that says that the "standards of modest dress" is something we shouldn't be teaching. 

Not at all. I'm clarifying the misconception that young women/woman dress to "tempt" men. Just like in the case of the young woman in your ward, she did it because it was a "cool" costume. Was it immodest? Absolutely. I have 0 issues with teaching about modesty, I just don't believe in teaching it for the wrong reasons. The wrong reason will be "You shouldn't wear this costume because you will cause our YM to have bad/sexual thoughts and they will follow you around".

But isn’t a major reason we engage in modesty, a matter of sensitivity/deference to the way others are affected by our behavior?

I mean, I get that we don’t want to drift into “her short skirt made me do it!”.  But why can’t we at least say (either to females or, as applicable, to males) “hey, part of the problem with you running around with no shirt on is that it distracts other people, and there is a sexual element to that distraction, and the people being distracted would rather not cope with it at the moment”?

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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1 hour ago, Suzie said:

I'm clarifying the misconception that young women/woman dress to "tempt" men.

Thank you for clarifying your position.  I think we're pretty close on this.

It's just the old argument.

1: I see clouds in the sky.
2: I see blue skies.
1: Yes, but there are clouds up there.
2: Yeah, but there's blue behind them.
1: Why are you saying it isn't cloudy?  You can clearly see clouds.
2: I see the too.  But the blue...

That said:

I think women do dress to tempt men, but not in the way you think. It is several steps removed.  But if we're going to be intellectually honest, the fundamental driving force is that we want to impress the opposite sex.

Women dress because they want to feel pretty.  They want to impress other women.  Got it. 100% understand.  My wife even tells me this is so.  No argument.

Why is it important for them to "feel pretty"?  Why is it important to them to "impress other women"?  It is so that they can show they are a "better specimen".  Think about what animals do?  Both males and females of any species do things to make themselves compete with others in the mating game.

Why is that important to be a better specimen?  So, they can attract a better mate.

It isn't conscious.  It isn't the immediate thing on people's minds.  But I think that the Puritanical attitude towards sex has blinded us to the fact that, yes, human beings do have the same instincts that any other animals have.  The only thing is that we can choose to push against that.  Actually achieving control over it is another story.

Quote

Just like in the case of the young woman in your ward, she did it because it was a "cool" costume. Was it immodest? Absolutely.

So, if you were her mother, what would you say to her if she came home with that costume and raved about how cool it was?  Would you even consider what I've just described above?

Would you be concerned about how the YM would ogle her the entire evening?  Would you just encourage her to go ahead and wear it?

Edited by Carborendum
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9 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

So, if you were her mother, what would you say to her if she came home with that costume and raved about how cool it was?  Would you even consider what I've just described above?

My aunt one time went through something like this. Her daughter brought home a guy who dressed like a fool-saggy jeans, trashy tank top (this was over 20 years ago), etc. In a moment of extreme brilliance my aunt started talking about how cool he looked. Guess what? Her daughter lost all interest in the guy. 
 

It’s the same kind of thing here. Once you start talking about how cool and hip your daughters new outfit is, she’ll probably be mortified and go change. 

Edited by LDSGator
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10 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

It’s the same kind of thing here. Once you start talking about how cool and hip your daughters new outfit is, she’ll probably be mortified and go change. 

I've heard of this happening -- usually in jokes.  This is the first I've heard of it working in real life.

It would not work in my family.

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But isn’t a major reason we engage in modesty, a matter of sensitivity/deference to the way others are affected by our behavior?

I mean, I get that we don’t want to drift into “her short skirt made me do it!”.  But why can’t we at least say (either to females or, as applicable, to males) “hey, part of the problem with you running around with no shirt on is that it distracts other people, and there is a sexual element to that distraction, and the people being distracted would rather not cope with it at the moment”?

Who is "we"? The Church? Maybe I'm seeing this from a difference perspective, but I have concerns when we teach young women particularly not to dress in a certain way because it might cause young men/men to feel/think/act/react in a certain way. We have to be very careful here, there are a lot of things that can go very wrong with this sort of teaching including rape ("She asked for it, did you see how she was dressed?"). It can be very damaging for an individual. On top of all of this, it is not an effective way to teach modesty.  I think the focus should be about self-respect and self-esteem which our youth all over the world lacks terribly these days.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I've heard of this happening -- usually in jokes.  This is the first I've heard of it working in real life.

It would not work in my family.

I’ve heard of situations like it here and there. It’s a great idea, you don’t want to create a Romeo and Juliet type situation. Easier said than done though. 

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So, if you were her mother, what would you say to her if she came home with that costume and raved about how cool it was?  Would you even consider what I've just described above?

I will acknowledge the fact that she just wants to have fun and she thinks it is a pretty cool costume, etc. But then, I will remind her about our lengthy conversations about modesty and touch the topics about self-respect and our bodies being a Temple of God, etc.

Would you be concerned about how the YM would ogle her the entire evening?  Would you just encourage her to go ahead and wear it?

Nope because she wouldn't be allowed to leave my home dressed immodestly.

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To add to this discussion, parents are very much unaware about the kind of activities their young children and teenagers are involved online. It is a very disturbing trend that some parents wish to ignore or blame it to "computer games" or "bad friends" but in fact, there are no rules or any sort of monitoring taking place at home.

Children are producing porn. YOUR child might be producing porn. Time to wake up!

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40 minutes ago, Suzie said:

But isn’t a major reason we engage in modesty, a matter of sensitivity/deference to the way others are affected by our behavior?

I mean, I get that we don’t want to drift into “her short skirt made me do it!”.  But why can’t we at least say (either to females or, as applicable, to males) “hey, part of the problem with you running around with no shirt on is that it distracts other people, and there is a sexual element to that distraction, and the people being distracted would rather not cope with it at the moment”?

Who is "we"? The Church? Maybe I'm seeing this from a difference perspective, but I have concerns when we teach young women particularly not to dress in a certain way because it might cause young men/men to feel/think/act/react in a certain way. We have to be very careful here, there are a lot of things that can go very wrong with this sort of teaching including rape ("She asked for it, did you see how she was dressed?"). It can be very damaging for an individual. On top of all of this, it is not an effective way to teach modesty.  I think the focus should be about self-respect and self-esteem which our youth all over the world lacks terribly these days.

Yes, I use “we” as “we, members of the Church, following the teachings it has promulgated on the subject”.  I think “modesty” encompasses more than just covering the body—see my posts to this thread on June 9 and June 13.

How far do we go to make sure psychologically-traumatized victims don’t take what was intended as a generalized behavioral caution, and start beating themselves over the head with it?  If a young woman in my ward goes to New York’s Central Park at 3 AM in a dress made of $100 bills and gets mugged, do I have to never, ever, say anything to the other 50 youth in my ward about the dangers of dodgy neighborhoods and late hours and flaunting wealth, or about the virtues of keeping a can of mace on one’s person?

I want to be trauma-informed, but when sensitivity to trauma means we can no longer talk about prevention or utter fundamental truths that are useful—I fear we may be going too far.

 

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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