Full and complete lesson on modesty?


Fether
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12 hours ago, Fether said:

So is the modesty standard taught and lived by the church in Utah stakes where girls are kicked out of stake dances for having shorts that go two inches above the knee the pinnacle and most celestial way of dressing modestly? And all cultures should moving closer to this superior celestial cultural approach to modesty? I’m not oppose to this thought, just trying to put it in more stark wording to figure out what you are saying or maybe weed out misconceptions in my understanding of what you are saying.

 

What a very twisted thing to suggest.  Where Adam and Eve kicked out of the garden because they were naked?  Did God rebuke Adam and Eve for lack of modesty?  Of course not.  Those in the celestial kingdom will be there because they have put off the natural man.  That will shape the culture of the celestial kingdom in ways that we can only imagine.  Ways that we can't and don't have here anywhere.

The fact that many here have pointed out that modesty is about humble actions and behavior shows that we know what the Lord's standard is, yet you (and many like yourself) are still fixated on hemlines, that just shows just how far we have to go.  If you truly want to learn and understand the modesty you need to focus on first part, and the second part will just flow from whatever understanding you possess of the culture you are in

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4 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Yes!  The core of modesty—even under the expansive definition that goes beyond mere sex—has to do with us participating in behavior that we know will elicit a particular reaction from others.

Indeed... I think a more fruitful discussion about dress and appearance would be....  Since no one can control the actions of another (Only influence) So how far do we need to change our behavior before it is considered enough?  One of the most common criticism that is given is about how the young women have been taught is that they are responsible for the behavior of the young men..  there are so many problem with this understanding... first being is they literally can't change enough for some people.  I mean I am pretty sure we think that full body burkas would be excessive, and yet that would not be enough for some people.

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4 hours ago, estradling75 said:

What a very twisted thing to suggest.  Where Adam and Eve kicked out of the garden because they were naked?  Did God rebuke Adam and Eve for lack of modesty?  Of course not.  Those in the celestial kingdom will be there because they have put off the natural man.  That will shape the culture of the celestial kingdom in ways that we can only imagine.  Ways that we can't and don't have here anywhere.

The fact that many here have pointed out that modesty is about humble actions and behavior shows that we know what the Lord's standard is, yet you (and many like yourself) are still fixated on hemlines, that just shows just how far we have to go.  If you truly want to learn and understand the modesty you need to focus on first part, and the second part will just flow from whatever understanding you possess of the culture you are in

Holy fetch, chill out. I’m not suggesting anything. I’m asking questions to more fully understand what others are saying. Is it so difficult for you to see a question that you don’t agree with the premise of? I’m actively studying and pondering this right now and I’m trying to understand. I don’t agree nor think it is about the hemlines. I am trying to understand why the church and its members fixate in hemlines and how it relates to humility.

I asked the question above because if modesty is very much cultural, than why do we impose cultural standards in our youth activities? 

Yesterday I was on a boat tour to go snorkeling. There was a family from what seemed to be Indonesia or some poor Asian country. One of the daughters was wearing a poorly fitted swimsuit and her boob was sticking out. Neither her nor her family seemed to care much. Now, was she (1) being immodest but not guilty of it because she was not aware of it the law? Or (2) was she not immodest because immodesty is a cultural standard? Or perhaps some other answer?
 

Again, I’m not talking about modesty as a whole. I’m acknowledging that the church (this bastion of truth and wisdom whose leaders know more than me) treats modesty almost entirely about woman’s clothing.

Had this event been from a young woman from Utah, she would absolutely be immodest. If 1, then there is a gold standard for modesty. If 2, then why do we impose cultural norms as barriers of entry to activities for youth activities and speak it from the pulpit in church and conferences?

Is the answer simply to stop teaching  modesty as being a dress standard? Or to stop requiring a certain dress in youth activities?

Edited by Fether
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On 6/11/2021 at 9:52 PM, Just_A_Guy said:

The trouble is, your distinction is thoroughly subjective.  You think that an pro-masker’s “fear” of COVID transmission is irrational whereas a conservative’a fear of having his lusts incited by a scantily-attired female is rational.  Others see it as precisely the opposite.

Certainly there’s a limit to how much we will undermine our own interests to assuage the fears of others that we deem trivial.  I get that masks may be an issue if you’re breathing heavily due to exertion; and maybe some folks have sensitive skin or something and really can’t abide a mask.  But for the vast majority of people, wearing a mask to Church for a couple hours is about as trivial a concession as asking a female to go to Church on a summer day in something other than her favorite sun dress.  In both cases, the strongest objectors are usually making a countercultural power play—a grownup variant of “I don’t wanna, and you can’t make me, and my sheer obnoxiousness makes me smarter and more virtuous than thou art!!!”

One reason women (and men also) dress modestly is because it is a commandment.  They also do it out of respect for themselves and out of respect for others so as not to encourage inappropriate/lustful thoughts.  In other words, to help each other live righteously.  That is “bearing one another’s burdens.” Wearing a mask does not help anyone live righteously.  However, if that person wants to wear a mask themselves, they are welcome to do so if it makes them feel better.  More importantly, it’s something they have control over.  But no one should be forced or guilted to wear a mask in the name of “bearing one another’s burdens.”  That is exploiting a commandment to manipulate members.

Again, dressing modestly vs. not wearing a mask are two entirely different things.

If wearing masks is as trivial among members as you claim, why was it even a point of discussion in your council meetings?

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8 minutes ago, Jedi_Nephite said:

One reason women (and men also) dress modestly is because it is a commandment.  They also do it out of respect for themselves and out of respect for others so as not to encourage inappropriate/lustful thoughts.  In other words, to help each other live righteously.  That is “bearing one another’s burdens.” Wearing a mask does not help anyone live righteously.  However, if that person wants to wear a mask themselves, they are welcome to do so if it makes them feel better.  More importantly, it’s something they have control over.  But no one should be forced or guilted to wear a mask in the name of “bearing one another’s burdens.”  That is exploiting a commandment to manipulate members.

Again, dressing modestly vs. not wearing a mask are two entirely different things.

If wearing masks is as trivial among members as you claim, why was it even a point of discussion in your council meetings?

Well, to be fair, I can see why a Jedi would be nervous about masks. After all, the most dangerous Sith Lords wear them!  

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Edited by LDSGator
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1 hour ago, Fether said:

Holy fetch, chill out. I’m not suggesting anything. I’m asking questions to more fully understand what others are saying. Is it so difficult for you to see a question that you don’t agree with the premise of? I’m actively studying and pondering this right now and I’m trying to understand. I don’t agree nor think it is about the hemlines. I am trying to understand why the church and its members fixate in hemlines and how it relates to humility.

I asked the question above because if modesty is very much cultural, than why do we impose cultural standards in our youth activities? 

Yesterday I was on a boat tour to go snorkeling. There was a family from what seemed to be Indonesia or some poor Asian country. One of the daughters was wearing a poorly fitted swimsuit and her boob was sticking out. Neither her nor her family seemed to care much. Now, was she (1) being immodest but not guilty of it because she was not aware of it the law? Or (2) was she not immodest because immodesty is a cultural standard? Or perhaps some other answer?
 

Again, I’m not talking about modesty as a whole. I’m acknowledging that the church (this bastion of truth and wisdom whose leaders know more than me) treats modesty almost entirely about woman’s clothing.

Had this event been from a young woman from Utah, she would absolutely be immodest. If 1, then there is a gold standard for modesty. If 2, then why do we impose cultural norms as barriers of entry to activities for youth activities and speak it from the pulpit in church and conferences?

Is the answer simply to stop teaching  modesty as being a dress standard? Or to stop requiring a certain dress in youth activities?

You are doing exactly what you say the members are doing... Fixating on clothing.  The example you want to walk through is yet another clothing example.  Until you break your fixation you can't see clearly to help others.

So on to your example the young girl with the ill fitting  swim suit.  Modesty is a function of intent.  To judge modesty we need to know the intent of the young girl.  It seems most likely that she was there to be part of the activity, and that her choice of swimwear was largely her best option. (ill fitting clothes usually is an indication of money hardships rather then choice).

If those assumptions hold then the girl was not being immodest, she was doing the best with what she had.

Now the people around her might be making claims about her modesty or lack there of...  Just like people might make claims about the modesty of Adam and Eve naked in the garden.  But that is a judgement and usually an unrighteous one.  From the limited details (And my own inherent filling in of blanks) it seems that the direction faithful saints should be going in in this case is not judgemental one but the one to 'Feed the hungry and clothe the naked.'

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26 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

You are doing exactly what you say the members are doing.

The CHURCH is doing it. Look up “modesty” in gospel topics in the gospel library and about 70% of it is talking about dress. I am trying to understand the connection between modesty and why we have this law of Moses approach when it comes to youth dress code.

 

34 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

So on to your example the young girl with the ill fitting  swim suit.  Modesty is a function of intent.  To judge modesty we need to know the intent of the young girl.  It seems most likely that she was there to be part of the activity, and that her choice of swimwear was largely her best option. (ill fitting clothes usually is an indication of money hardships rather then choice).

If those assumptions hold then the girl was not being immodest, she was doing the best with what she had.

I agree with this. So if this is the case, and modesty when applied to how we dress is about intent, should we stop talking about a dress code completely? How do we judge intent?

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41 minutes ago, Fether said:

The CHURCH is doing it. Look up “modesty” in gospel topics in the gospel library and about 70% of it is talking about dress. I am trying to understand the connection between modesty and why we have this law of Moses approach when it comes to youth dress code.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/modesty?lang=eng

Just in case anyone wants to measure the percentage.

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48 minutes ago, Fether said:

The CHURCH is doing it. Look up “modesty” in gospel topics in the gospel library and about 70% of it is talking about dress. I am trying to understand the connection between modesty and why we have this law of Moses approach when it comes to youth dress code.

The CHURCH is not a uniform homogenized mass.  It made up of thousands of individual whom neither you nor I can control, the only thing we have is an influence... An influence that is best felt by example.  If you feel the membership of the church needs to change, your best tactic is to be that change.

53 minutes ago, Fether said:

I agree with this. So if this is the case, and modesty when applied to how we dress is about intent, should we stop talking about a dress code completely? How do we judge intent?

We judge.. by stewardship, and by asking questions.  Poor intent usually becomes pretty clear when you ask someone about it.

Just because a dress code is a cultural standard.. does not mean that it is wrong and shouldn't be talked about.  We can not transmit cultural or any other standards without communicating it some how..  The gospel standard is to share the light of Christ and not to try to be that Light ourselves.  The cultural standard helps us see how our actions might go one way or the other in trying to accomplish the goal of the gosple

 

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4 hours ago, Jedi_Nephite said:

[1]One reason women (and men also) dress modestly is because it is a commandment.  They also do it out of respect for themselves and out of respect for others so as not to encourage inappropriate/lustful thoughts.  In other words, to help each other live righteously.  That is “bearing one another’s burdens.” Wearing a mask does not help anyone live righteously.  However, if that person wants to wear a mask themselves, they are welcome to do so if it makes them feel better.  More importantly, it’s something they have control over.  But no one should be forced or guilted to wear a mask in the name of “bearing one another’s burdens.”  That is exploiting a commandment to manipulate members.

[2]Again, dressing modestly vs. not wearing a mask are two entirely different things.

If wearing masks is as trivial among members as you claim, why was it even a point of discussion in your council meetings?

1.  I fear you’re again falling into the trap of making “modesty” all about (or even just “mostly” about) sex.  Even “For the Strength of Youth” doesn’t do this.  It reads, in relevant part,

Your body is sacred. Respect it and do not defile it in any way. Through your dress and appearance, you can show that you know how precious your body is. You can show that you are a disciple of Jesus Christ and that you love Him.

Prophets of God have continually counseled His children to dress modestly. When you are well groomed and modestly dressed, you invite the companionship of the Spirit and you can be a good influence on others. Your dress and grooming influence the way you and others act.

Never lower your standards of dress. Do not use a special occasion as an excuse to be immodest. When you dress immodestly, you send a message that is contrary to your identity as a son or daughter of God. You also send the message that you are using your body to get attention and approval.

Immodest clothing is any clothing that is tight, sheer, or revealing in any other manner. Young women should avoid short shorts and short skirts, shirts that do not cover the stomach, and clothing that does not cover the shoulders or is low-cut in the front or the back. Young men should also maintain modesty in their appearance. Young men and young women should be neat and clean and avoid being extreme or inappropriately casual in clothing, hairstyle, and behavior. They should choose appropriately modest apparel when participating in sports. The fashions of the world will change, but the Lord’s standards will not change.

Do not disfigure yourself with tattoos or body piercings. Young women, if you desire to have your ears pierced, wear only one pair of earrings.
Show respect for the Lord and yourself by dressing appropriately for Church meetings and activities. This is especially important when attending sacrament services. Young men should dress with dignity when officiating in the ordinance of the sacrament.

If you are not sure what is appropriate to wear, study the words of the prophets, pray for guidance, and ask your parents or leaders for help. Your dress and appearance now will help you prepare for the time when you will go to the temple to make sacred covenants with God. Ask yourself, “Would I feel comfortable with my appearance if I were in the Lord’s presence?”

Now, if modesty is all about making sure others aren’t tempted to lust after us—how does being neat and clean and avoiding extremes in fashion and grooming, keep people from lusting after us?  

It’s not (primarily) about the sex; it’s about the messages we send to ourselves, to our God, and—yes—to others.

2). I don’t believe I said that issue of masks is objectively trivial.  I did acknowledge that one side views the other side’s concerns as trivial (as the parties to any dispute are wont to do).  I think I also stated that wearing a mask at church for a couple of hours (like avoiding wearing immodest sundresses in the same venue) is a trivial concession—as, in fact, it is; except for the spiritually sociopathic jack-donkeys who, as I expressed upthread, “are usually making a countercultural power play—a grownup variant of “I don’t wanna, and you can’t make me, and my sheer obnoxiousness makes me smarter and more virtuous than thou art!!!”  

Or, to phrase the mentality another way—

“I’m gonna get mine, and if you don’t like it you can go to Hell.  Maybe literally.”

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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My attempt at points to be hit on in a lesson on modesty.

- “Modesty is an attitude of propriety and decency in dress, grooming, language, and behavior. If we are modest, we do not draw undue attention to ourselves. Instead, we seek to “glorify God in [our] body, and in [our] spirit”” - Gospel Topics - Modesty

- When you are at church, don’t wear clothing, speak in such a way, or act in such a way that distracts you from church activities. When you are at school, don’t wear clothes, act, or speak in a way that distracts from school. Same with a dance, swimming, etc. Unless you are the intended focus of an activity, don’t seek to be the focus.

- The reason for the constant focus on woman and the specific to-wears and not-to-wears is partly because their men tend to be more sexually minded and tempted and it is easier for women to draw undue attention to themselves, and this matters whether it is intentional or unintentional. Another point of note is that woman’s accepted clothing attire has been slowly degrading over the ages (it was pointed out that men pretty much where the same stuff they did 200 years ago).

- We are all in this life together. We are all sons and daughters of God. Luke 22:32 teaches that when we are converted, we strengthen our brethren. It doesn’t say “when thou art converted, put up hedges and stumbling blocks for your brother” Additionally, we all Covenanted at baptism tho bear one another’s burdens and stand as a witness of God. Men and woman both should be aware of how they dress and be concerned as to the affect it has on all those around them.

 

anything else worth being said on the topic? Or something that should be left out?

Edited by Fether
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On 6/12/2021 at 6:13 PM, Fether said:

....

similar question as posed above. Should we all be moving toward that thought process? That there is an ultimate cultural approach to modesty, but we are just not guilty of any sin because we haven’t been taught that? 

Until we are taught truth we are in ignorance.  It is interesting to me that the leg length and arm length has been altered since the advent of my Grandmother.  But there is something related to our temple covenants.  I do not want to get into all possibilities but when we are talking about modesty - the covenants we make ought to apply directly to how we define our being a disciple .   Note that the root of disciple is the same as the root of discipline and that achieving modesty is an act of discipline.

There are also question about being accountable for thing we are not taught - in other words things of which we are ignorant.   Rather than give my personal opinion I offer a couple of scriptures:

Ephesians 4

Quote

17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But ye have not so learned Christ;

21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the bold man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the anew man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Acts 17

Quote

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

 

The Traveler

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On 6/13/2021 at 6:41 PM, Just_A_Guy said:

1.  I fear you’re again falling into the trap of making “modesty” all about (or even just “mostly” about) sex.  Even “For the Strength of Youth” doesn’t do this.  It reads, in relevant part,

Your body is sacred. Respect it and do not defile it in any way. Through your dress and appearance, you can show that you know how precious your body is. You can show that you are a disciple of Jesus Christ and that you love Him.

Prophets of God have continually counseled His children to dress modestly. When you are well groomed and modestly dressed, you invite the companionship of the Spirit and you can be a good influence on others. Your dress and grooming influence the way you and others act.

Never lower your standards of dress. Do not use a special occasion as an excuse to be immodest. When you dress immodestly, you send a message that is contrary to your identity as a son or daughter of God. You also send the message that you are using your body to get attention and approval.

Immodest clothing is any clothing that is tight, sheer, or revealing in any other manner. Young women should avoid short shorts and short skirts, shirts that do not cover the stomach, and clothing that does not cover the shoulders or is low-cut in the front or the back. Young men should also maintain modesty in their appearance. Young men and young women should be neat and clean and avoid being extreme or inappropriately casual in clothing, hairstyle, and behavior. They should choose appropriately modest apparel when participating in sports. The fashions of the world will change, but the Lord’s standards will not change.

Do not disfigure yourself with tattoos or body piercings. Young women, if you desire to have your ears pierced, wear only one pair of earrings.
Show respect for the Lord and yourself by dressing appropriately for Church meetings and activities. This is especially important when attending sacrament services. Young men should dress with dignity when officiating in the ordinance of the sacrament.

If you are not sure what is appropriate to wear, study the words of the prophets, pray for guidance, and ask your parents or leaders for help. Your dress and appearance now will help you prepare for the time when you will go to the temple to make sacred covenants with God. Ask yourself, “Would I feel comfortable with my appearance if I were in the Lord’s presence?”

Now, if modesty is all about making sure others aren’t tempted to lust after us—how does being neat and clean and avoiding extremes in fashion and grooming, keep people from lusting after us?  

It’s not (primarily) about the sex; it’s about the messages we send to ourselves, to our God, and—yes—to others.

2). I don’t believe I said that issue of masks is objectively trivial.  I did acknowledge that one side views the other side’s concerns as trivial (as the parties to any dispute are wont to do).  I think I also stated that wearing a mask at church for a couple of hours (like avoiding wearing immodest sundresses in the same venue) is a trivial concession—as, in fact, it is; except for the spiritually sociopathic jack-donkeys who, as I expressed upthread, “are usually making a countercultural power play—a grownup variant of “I don’t wanna, and you can’t make me, and my sheer obnoxiousness makes me smarter and more virtuous than thou art!!!”  

Or, to phrase the mentality another way—

“I’m gonna get mine, and if you don’t like it you can go to Hell.  Maybe literally.”

Anyone who disagrees with you is a “spiritually sociopathic jack-donkey?” 

Jag, you’re a lawyer, so I find it hard to believe that you can’t see the deeper reasons as to why anti-mask wearing members refuse to wear them.  If you’re not aware of their concerns, you either refuse to listen to them, or are not very aware as to what’s going in the world.  If you’re a lawyer, I would hope your critical thinking skills are better than that.  

I neither said nor implied that modesty was only about sex.  I didn’t say anything about sex. The modesty/mask wearing comparison was yours, not mine.  In fact, what you posted from The Strength of Youth is pretty much what I said in my previous post, which was that dressing modestly shows respect for others and yourself, and, in doing so, helps each other stay on the righteous path.  Yes, I did also say that doing so helps others not to think inappropriate/lustful thoughts, but, that’s true, so, my point still stands.

Again, trying to compare dressing modestly to mask wearing is not only absurd, but a form of manipulation to guilt members into compliance.  

Modesty does not mean you have to wear a mask because Brother Jones is afraid of germs.  If Brother Jones is afraid of germs, he can wear a mask.  I won’t judge him for his choice to wear one, and I will hope he won’t judge me for my choice not to wear one.

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On 6/13/2021 at 7:28 PM, Fether said:

My attempt at points to be hit on in a lesson on modesty.

Is there a reason you want a full lesson on modesty taught in church? 

Church lessons usually serve 3 purposes: teach doctrine, strengthen faith, and change behavior. It was with this understanding that I observed earlier that we don't generally have stand-alone lessons on modesty. We have lessons on chastity (which includes a section on modesty), and we have standards nights (which includes discussions on modesty), and we have lessons on humility (which includes examples of modesty). Modesty is a secondary principle in our teaching. From what I can tell, it is taught in order to encourage some behavior which supports the greater principle.

I wonder if it warrants a full lesson.

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1 hour ago, mordorbund said:

Is there a reason you want a full lesson on modesty taught in church? 

Church lessons usually serve 3 purposes: teach doctrine, strengthen faith, and change behavior. It was with this understanding that I observed earlier that we don't generally have stand-alone lessons on modesty. We have lessons on chastity (which includes a section on modesty), and we have standards nights (which includes discussions on modesty), and we have lessons on humility (which includes examples of modesty). Modesty is a secondary principle in our teaching. From what I can tell, it is taught in order to encourage some behavior which supports the greater principle.

I wonder if it warrants a full lesson.

It was more for my own purposes.

I don’t necessarily think one should be done. I just didn’t fully understand the connection between modesty, our dress, and why there was so much hoopla about women and their dress and why I feel nothing else was ever really stressed.

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6 hours ago, Fether said:

why I feel nothing else was ever really stressed.

So, why do you feel like nothing else was ever really stressed?  I certainly hear a LOT of other things being stressed.  And if there really are a LOT of things being stressed, is anything really being "stressed"?  Maybe we see what we want to see?

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