Sign in to follow this  
NeedleinA

Does the Lord want/need diverse perspectives?

Recommended Posts

I recently watched this Church video:  Alone, but Not Lonely 

In it this accomplished, single, attractive, 30+ year old, Dr. of something, talks about some of the 'unique' benefits of being single. 

She says,

"When we walk the path of single hood even for just a period in our lives, we can choose to see it as a unique kind of a blessing, not a curse or a stumbling block it can bless us and others in very real ways opening unique opportunities to serve and providing a much needed diversity of perspectives in the broader community".

"Our communities are what we make them and they are able to serve in more meaningful ways when they see through the eyes of diverse perspectives"

 

So... rather than get caught up on the, "I'm a single faithful Sister"  (rings similar to the "I'm a queer faithful Sister" idea)... 
Q: Do we have a need in the Church for diverse perspectives?
Q: Does the Lord want diverse perspectives OR does he want us to follow his perspective, the one that leads to actually lasting happiness?
Q: Is diversity of thought a help or a hindrance in leading God's children back to him?
Q: Is the world trying to convince us that there is no single Iron Rod, but many rods we can hold on to that lead back to God also?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Need might be a strong word.

In this fallen world we are going to have diverse perspectives... because everyone has there own and we have to deal with it.

The command to love and minster can some times be easier, and is generally more effective, when we understand the perspectives of those we are trying to reach.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

I recently watched this Church video:  Alone, but Not Lonely 

In it this accomplished, single, attractive, 30+ year old, Dr. of something, talks about some of the 'unique' benefits of being single. 

She says,

"When we walk the path of single hood even for just a period in our lives, we can choose to see it as a unique kind of a blessing, not a curse or a stumbling block it can bless us and others in very real ways opening unique opportunities to serve and providing a much needed diversity of perspectives in the broader community".

"Our communities are what we make them and they are able to serve in more meaningful ways when they see through the eyes of diverse perspectives"

 

So... rather than get caught up on the, "I'm a single faithful Sister"  (rings similar to the "I'm a queer faithful Sister" idea)... 
Q: Do we have a need in the Church for diverse perspectives?
Q: Does the Lord want diverse perspectives OR does he want us to follow his perspective, the one that leads to actually lasting happiness?
Q: Is diversity of thought a help or a hindrance in leading God's children back to him?
Q: Is the world trying to convince us that there is no single Iron Rod, but many rods we can hold on to that lead back to God also?

Yes, the Lord loves diversity (as in variety; thus He created all things in and upon the Earth) -- and each child is different, and His Atonement can be applied in innumerable ways to any of their circumstances. Each child brings something to the table in the Church of the Firstborn. Making and keeping the eternal covenants is the only thing we are to do the same. So, RE: Q1 I think that yes, there is more than one way to do good and bring the Gospel to others in a fallen world. Q2: this is a false dichotomy. Q3: A help: God himself possesses diversity of thought (Hebrews 1:1, Alma 24:27, Moroni 10:8, ). Q4: Yes, but this is not the same as Q1, 2 or 3.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, NeedleinA said:

So... rather than get caught up on the, "I'm a single faithful Sister"  (rings similar to the "I'm a queer faithful Sister" idea)... 

I see where you're coming from. But "singleness" is not a state one must actively avoid or repent of. In the sense that the optimal state, the state required of us to progress to our eventual exaltation, is one of marriage of a man to a woman, then anything other than that state is suboptimal. In this sense, your statement is true. But I would hesitate at making too much of a comparison between being unmarried and having homosexual proclivities. I think the comparison brings more confusion than clarity.

1 hour ago, NeedleinA said:

Q: Do we have a need in the Church for diverse perspectives?

Again, this is a matter of definition of terms. We are surely in agreement that diversity for diversity's sake is useless if not harmful.

But God is vastly powerful and able. He can very literally do any meaningful thing. We are vastly impotent and handicapped. We cannot see the end from the beginning; indeed, we do well to see the next step. Next to God, we know almost nothing. We are as helpless as a newborn babe in his mother's arms.

Yet God has given gifts and inspiration to us. Not all share the same gifts. If all are ears, where is the seeing? If all feet, where the hearing? If all vision, where the movement? In this sense—that God's gifts are innumerable, and that each of us has his own, perhaps unique, gifts—I would say yes, diversity is a very good thing indeed. I would in fact say that diversity is crucial to our progress and to the establishment of God's kingdom.

1 hour ago, NeedleinA said:

Q: Does the Lord want diverse perspectives OR does he want us to follow his perspective, the one that leads to actually lasting happiness?

Both are true simultaneously. If we must go by opinion on some matter, let us seek diligently to know God's "opinion" on that matter, and follow it. But I think it is usually not so straightforward and clear-cut as that. It makes sense for men and women to counsel together. This is the basis of the Church's operation by quorums, and in fact the basis of how the family operates, or should operate. We should be complementary to each other, as the woman complements the man and vice versa. I believe that in many cases, this is how the mind of God is revealed to us.

1 hour ago, NeedleinA said:

Q: Is diversity of thought a help or a hindrance in leading God's children back to him?

See the above thoughts on diversity. I think it should be a great help, but when people focus on "diversity" as if it by its very nature is some virtue, then I think such attitudes prove a great hindrance to our progression.

1 hour ago, NeedleinA said:

Q: Is the world trying to convince us that there is no single Iron Rod, but many rods we can hold on to that lead back to God also?

I do not believe the world is trying to convince us of this. The world scoffs at any idea of an "iron rod", except for whatever is popular today.

Rather, and more insidiously, I think that too many who claim to be Saints are trying to convince us of this lie. Many of them actually believe the lie. It has always been thus, though I do believe the current rising generation has bought into such lies to a greater degree than many past generations. Maybe just different lies. I'm not sure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Vort said:

I see where you're coming from. But "singleness" is not a state one must actively avoid or repent of.

Very true. 
Sorry, the only parallel was the PR parallel of finding someone and presenting them in the light of "hey look at me, I'm X and still faithful and full of purpose". 
Other than that, singleness has nothing to do with a state that one must actively avoid. 👍

Edited by NeedleinA

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Vort said:

We are surely in agreement that diversity for diversity's sake is useless if not harmful.

...

I think it should be a great help, but when people focus on "diversity" as if it by its very nature is some virtue, then I think such attitudes prove a great hindrance to our progression.

Yes, for checkbox, virtue signaling or PR purposes... absolutely on the same page. 

Edited by NeedleinA

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

Q: Do we have a need in the Church for diverse perspectives?
Q: Does the Lord want diverse perspectives OR does he want us to follow his perspective, the one that leads to actually lasting happiness?
Q: Is diversity of thought a help or a hindrance in leading God's children back to him?
Q: Is the world trying to convince us that there is no single Iron Rod, but many rods we can hold on to that lead back to God also?

A1: we don’t have a need for diverse perspectives, I guess, but we’ll have them because people are diverse

A2: If he didn’t want diverse perspectives, he would have made us all clones incapable of independent thought. 

A3: lockstep conformity becomes a litmus test and a source of pride.  What? This guy doesn’t vomit out what I do in appearances and thought? He must be a heathen. Why can’t he look/think like me? 
 

A4: I don’t know, but I can’t help but think that He (God) gives us multiple chances for salvation. I refuse to believe that a Jewish person in the holocaust dies and goes to Hell just because they weren’t presented with a chance in this life to be introduced to the BOM 

Edited by LDSGator

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It would seem to me the there are several points though which this topic can be viewed - I like @Vort's point of view.  To be honest I think @NeedleinA view is not as incorrect as it is extreme.

The goal of the Saints that covenant with G-d is to be "one" - both with each other and G-d (including his Son Jesus Christ).  I have some ideas but I am not sure my ideas are as accurate as what is necessary for a Saint of G-d.  But I do believe that the great principle of the Pre-existence was Agency.  Without question - with agency comes diversity.  It was Lucifer that went to war in heaven over diversity and being against diversity (Agency) was more harmful to him than benefit for thinking and believing so.

It has been a bit difficult for me but I have become more acceptable of how someone uses their agency with two caveats.  First; that they own their decisions as theirs and not attempt to blame anyone else - especially G-d or Satan.  Often I will make of joke of this and say something like, "I can resist anything but temptation".   Second that they do not attempt to make their choice the only valid or acceptable choice for others - especially those in a similar circumstance.

I admit that the second caveat is the most difficult for me.  I believe that because I am primarily connected to logic rather than emotions that anyone else employing logic should come to the same conclusion.  However, I have a brother that tells me that the only thing that I am emotional about is logic and that others have a broader perspective.  

We have always had singles in the church.  It does seem to me that there are more single ladies than men but then these times are a changing.  

It is also my opinion that we make too big of a deal over marriage in that if we cannot get along in a marriage relationship - it is okay to be single.  I personally do not what to get into discussions over all the excuses that are employed to be single.  I did not marry until I was 26 and had to employ many excuses myself.  My favorite excuse was that my eternal partner was killed in the war in heaven.  I did not think of myself as lonely when I was single - however now that I am married to a wonderful lady and have 5 children (9 counting their spouses) and 20 grand children - I have come to understand a connection to ancestors as well as decedents that has completely reset my previous logic of being alone and not lonely.

There is a misery index that can go to zero through the everlasting covenant of eternal marriage.  Any deliberate effort to avoid any sacred covenant will (if not in the here and now) eventually tick up the misery index.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Traveler said:

is also my opinion that we make too big of a deal over marriage in that if we cannot get along in a marriage relationship - it is okay to be single

I agree fully, but I wish we made divorce harder. Amazingly, I’ve never been personally divorced, but I’ve seen what it does to people and it’s heartbreaking. Maybe if we didn’t pressure people into getting married so young this wouldn't be issue. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

A2: If he didn’t want diverse perspectives, he would have made us all clones*

*like Kamino Clone Troopers? 😉

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I realize we have agency, the ability to make choices/preferences like: hamburger vs. hotdog. Cat vs. dog. Blue vs. Red. Follow good vs. evil. 

That aside for the moment:
Q. Is becoming like our Father in Heaven required to enter into the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom?
Q. Does obtaining 'perfection', like our Father in Heaven, someday require a form of making his will our will?
Q. Does obtaining 'perfection' at some point thus require us to align our perspective to his as well?
Q. In order to master/become/obtain (?) perfection, it seems that some requirements, laws, guidelines must be followed at all times otherwise perfection would become corrupted and thus imperfect.

REAL QUESTION:
Q: Wouldn't diversity of thought at some point (in the eternities) become counter productive as it would be competing against those thoughts that stemmed from perfection?
How do you offer a better thought than one that is already a perfect thought? Didn't Satan offer up a diverse thought to that of our Father in Heaven's already perfect plan?

Edited by NeedleinA

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Traveler said:

@NeedleinA view is not as incorrect as it is extreme.

I get told this rather frequently. "Hey Brother, less cement and more water". 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, NeedleinA said:

I realize we have agency, the ability to make choices/preferences like: hamburger vs. hotdog. Cat vs. dog. Blue vs. Red. Follow good vs. evil. 

That aside for the moment:
Q. Is becoming like our Father in Heaven required to enter into the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom?
Q. Does obtaining 'perfection', like our Father in Heaven, someday require a form of making his will our will?
Q. Does obtaining 'perfection' at some point thus require us to align our perspective to his as well?
Q. In order to master/become/obtain (?) perfection, it seems that some requirements, laws, guidelines must be followed at all times otherwise perfection would become corrupted and thus imperfect.

REAL QUESTION:
Q: Wouldn't diversity of thought at some point (in the eternities) become counter productive as it would be competing against those thoughts that stemmed from perfection?
How do you offer a better thought than one that is already a perfect thought? Didn't Satan offer up a diverse thought to that of our Father in Heaven's already perfect plan?

I think the answer to all your questions is “yes”; with a caveat that perspective is largely a function of life experience and I think God, by virtue of His Atonement, already understands all experiences and therefore all perspectives perfectly.  

But for what it’s worth, I think Dr. Glenn is speaking from a communitarian/social standpoint; not a theological one.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, LDSGator said:

I agree fully, but I wish we made divorce harder. Amazingly, I’ve never been personally divorced, but I’ve seen what it does to people and it’s heartbreaking. Maybe if we didn’t pressure people into getting married so young this wouldn't be issue. 

Mostly I agree.  However, I am more inclined to think we do not teach enough how to behave in marriage and how to learn from dating if a marriage will work.  I personally think that we make too much of love as an emotion rather than approaching marriage more with logic - especially the kind of logic that can detect dishonesty and discerptions.  

 

The Traveler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

I get told this rather frequently. "Hey Brother, less cement and more water". 

I think your ideas are important and if you are open to discussion - as you appear to be - then I think you questions are excellent questions.

 

The Traveler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What exactly do you mean by "want diverse perspectives"?   About what?   Do you think God cares if blue is your favorite color and green is mine?   Do you think he wants us to have those differing opinions?    Do you think God cares if you think it's OK to drink coffee, beer, and not tithe and for me to believe not following those covenants is sinful?   Do you think he wants us to have THOSE differing opinions?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Grunt said:

What exactly do you mean by "want diverse perspectives"? 

@Grunt, are you speaking to one of us in particular when you are addressing 'you'? Just checking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Grunt said:

I'm usually just talking to myself.  Ask my wife.

I just checked. Sister Grunt, confirms = "Yes, to himself"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I see the vision of the Iron Rod as an apt metaphor. But it is prone to being incorrectly applied.  The nature of the rod is that there is only one way to get to the Tree of Life.  And you need to hold fast to that one way.

The thing that people don't consider is that the rod can START and any location.  It need only END at the Tree. 

As long as you can grab hold of the rod from where you are, you make strides either towards or away from the tree.  Notice that from wherever you are, only ONE direction will take you toward the tree.  All others deviate from that path.  

If certain people start in the same place, then they will need to take the same path to get to the tree.

Since most people start at different locations, they will necessarily go in a different compass direction to reach the same location.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I see the vision of the Iron Rod as an apt metaphor. But it is prone to being incorrectly applied.  The nature of the rod is that there is only one way to get to the Tree of Life.  And you need to hold fast to that one way.

The thing that people don't consider is that the rod can START and any location.  It need only END at the Tree. 

As long as you can grab hold of the rod from where you are, you make strides either towards or away from the tree.  Notice that from wherever you are, only ONE direction will take you toward the tree.  All others deviate from that path.  

If certain people start in the same place, then they will need to take the same path to get to the tree.

Since most people start at different locations, they will necessarily go in a different compass direction to reach the same location.

I had this discussion previously.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think what we call perspective is really just seeing through the glass darkly in that we only see part of the picture whereas God sees the whole thing. The part that I see is a product of my life experience which is never going to be exactly the same as anyone else. But the more we learn and experience the greater and more inclusive our perspective becomes until we see as God sees. Kind of like listening to the same general conference talk and coming away with differing and yet still correct understandings of what was taught. One day we will comprehend it all fully but for now God shows us that which is most relevant for us individually.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, laronius said:

I think what we call perspective is really just seeing through the glass darkly in that we only see part of the picture whereas God sees the whole thing.

Well said. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/5/2021 at 12:03 PM, NeedleinA said:


Q: Do we have a need in the Church for diverse perspectives?
Q: Does the Lord want diverse perspectives OR does he want us to follow his perspective, the one that leads to actually lasting happiness?
Q: Is diversity of thought a help or a hindrance in leading God's children back to him?
Q: Is the world trying to convince us that there is no single Iron Rod, but many rods we can hold on to that lead back to God also?

1. No, we don't. Diversity is a state, not necessarily an ideal or a negative. As the gospel spreads throughout the globe, we will absolutely get diverse perspectives. In and of themselves these are neither good nor bad. 

2. I feel the Lord wants us to follow His perspective, but there can be a lot of diversity alongside that. 

3. See number 1. 

4. I believe there is a single Iron Rod that is accessible to everyone. It may be a straight and narrow path, but there's plenty of room. I believe the world tries to declare the Iron Rod to be things it's not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this