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BYU Hawaii - vaccine required

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16 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Do we really hope to change the world through political activism if we continue to "treated lightly the things which we have received"?

The sad part is that, even if every single LDS did what you described, there is virtually no way we could change the country through political activism. We’re probably less than 5% of the population in the states. Even if we all voted the same way on every issue, it would make little impact.  

Edited by LDSGator

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33 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

The Church and Political Activism.

  • Politics is downstream of culture.
  • The Church's culture is made up of families.
  • We do the most good in society when we spend our time and energy on raising our children to know the word of God, and have faith in and a testimony of 
    • The Atonement of Christ.
    • The Book of Mormon as the word of God.
    • The spiritual hospital that is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The Sunday School presidency recently went around to families in our ward and asked the following questions:

  • Is your family actually reading the Come Follow Me manual and doing the extra little things that it instructs us to do?
  • Is your family reading and studying the D&C and answering the questions that the manual asks?
  • Is your family reading the Book of Mormon daily?

The results were astoundingly awful.  Very few even opened CFM.  Very few read the assignment.  Almost no one was reading the BoM daily (or even close to daily).  A reasonable number were reading the scriptures "sometimes" outside of Church. 

Do we really hope to change the world through political activism if we continue to "treated lightly the things which we have received"?

That is sad.  I admit that I and my family could do better at studying CFM throughout the week.  But we do read from the sections almost every day as a family.  And I don't think we need to, or are even asked to do any or all the extra little things in the manual.  The intro says we should use the manual for our needs, in any way that is helpful to us.  So we need to walk a fine line of encouraging people to do better at studying without overwhelming or discouraging them by asking too much. 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/come-follow-me-for-individuals-and-families-doctrine-and-covenants-2021/using?lang=eng

I just got called as a gospel doctrine teacher (my first calling since being baptized again!)  and I'm hoping that my class will be doing at least some reading.  I'll try to figure out the best ways to encourage them to do more.  My first lesson went very well last week on section 76 :) 

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5 minutes ago, dprh said:

I just got called as a gospel doctrine teacher (my first calling since being baptized again!)

This is really wonderful news. Congratulations! I'm very happy for you. (Regarding the rebaptism, though I'm happy for you about the gospel doctrine calling, too.)

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19 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

It really does bring up some seriously difficult questions regarding compromise.


To me, this is the crux of the issue. 
 

 

In matters of righteousness, there can’t really be compromise. No unclean thing can enter the Kingdom of God. God sets these boundaries and commandments and only He is Judge.  
 

 

In all other matters of good/better/best there will most likely need to be compromise. A happy marriage is a set of compromises. A happy family requires compromise. Politics is a set of compromises. 

So, to keep things in perspective, I have had to acknowledge that in social issues, whether decisions are poor, good, better, or best, there are going to need to be compromises. And in this case, ‘vaccination requirements’ is not a hill I want to die on. (Pun executed in poor taste only somewhat intended.) 
 

Because we so often think of the church schools as being intertwined with God’s doctrines, we tend to look towards the decisions they make as ways to more closely align with Him. In reality, those decisions are mostly just sets of compromises between the righteous desires of the Saints and the ideals of a fallen world. 
 

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49 minutes ago, Colirio said:

‘vaccination requirements’ is not a hill I want to die on. (Pun executed in poor taste only somewhat intended.) 

What if you firmly believed there was a real chance your child could suffer serious side-effects from it, up to and including possibly dying -- whereas the chances of your child dying from getting Covid was pretty much nill?

What if, whether you believed it or not, that was the reality, being hid by all the censorship and political motivations and the like?

What hill do you die on? Because the potential unnecessary death of one of my children seems a pretty good theoretical choice to me.

Obviously the question is somewhat rhetorical. Because clearly if that isn't the hill you're prepared to die on, you must not believe these risks are as potentially severe as others do. But do you recognize, at least, the reality that some do, indeed, have those sorts of fears, and that those fears have some actual reasonable bases behind them? Just curious.

Edited by The Folk Prophet

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2 hours ago, LDSGator said:

The sad part is that, even if every single LDS did what you described, there is virtually no way we could change the country through political activism. We’re probably less than 5% of the population in the states. Even if we all voted the same way on every issue, it would make little impact.  

In some ways I agree, others I don't.

But I can't seem to reconcile this attitude with your earlier statement that "we'll be fine for at least another 500 years."

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42 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

In some ways I agree, others I don't.

But I can't seem to reconcile this attitude with your earlier statement that "we'll be fine for at least another 500 years."

We will be fine, relax. Life is actually getting better. 
 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/the-big-idea/2016/12/23/14062168/history-global-conditions-charts-life-span-poverty

 

@Carborendum-aside from my raging cocaine problem, I think I fall short as an LDS because I just don’t see the world ending in three hours. I do believe we are living in the latter days (surprise!) but like how God created the Heavens and the Earth, I feel like His “six days” could be hundreds of years. Also, study after study shows that the world is getting vastly better in wonderful ways. 

Edited by LDSGator

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56 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

What if you firmly believed there was a real chance your child could suffer serious side-effects from it, up to and including possibly dying -- whereas the chances of your child dying from getting Covid was pretty much nill?

What if, whether you believed it or not, that was the reality, being hid by all the censorship and political motivations and the like?

What hill do you die on? Because the potential unnecessary death of one of my children seems a pretty good theoretical choice to me.

Obviously the question is somewhat rhetorical. Because clearly if that isn't the hill you're prepared to die on, you must not believe these risks are as potentially severe as others do. But do you recognize, at least, the reality that some do, indeed, have those sorts of fears, and that those fears have some actual reasonable bases behind them? Just curious.


And that is my point. 
 

It’s not the hill that I’m willing to die on because, quite frankly, there are far more important concerns for my family. (Not of COVID vaccines, but of whether my child should go to BYU-H! 😁)  

 

To your point: 

I would say that when confronted with any choice in which a policy exists, for which I refuse to bend, I am left with three options. I can fight, I can leave, or I can adhere. 

If I am forced into a corner where no other alternative options exist, then I either fight or adhere. 
 

All of these options have consequences that I should weigh before making an important decision. 
 

So, to circle back again, the question remains as to whether this is the hill someone wants to die on. Because, IMO, getting a vaccine most likely isn’t the real issue for those wanting to make their stand here. Rather, I would assume that they are actually desiring to stand and fight for a deeper issue. (Ie. Removal of liberties, rebelling against social norms, rebelling against religious authority, rebelling against the opposing political party, standing up for religious ideals, simply wanting to bash the church, etc.) 

 

But, perhaps it is just that simple for someone. Maybe they have determined that this is the issue of their lifetime. This is the final line in the sand and they absolutely refuse to cross. And there is just no other school that should even be considered except BYU-H. I am certainly not their Master or their Judge. It just seems to me that a re-focusing of priorities might be needed. (That is not to say that I also don’t need to reprioritize the things in my life!) 

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3 hours ago, LDSGator said:

The sad part is that, even if every single LDS did what you described, there is virtually no way we could change the country through political activism. We’re probably less than 5% of the population in the states. Even if we all voted the same way on every issue, it would make little impact.  

IRL, I'm the entertainment writer for a local family of newspapers. 

I've had people tell me that they wait to get my review before deciding to see a movie or not. Even if they disagree with my review, they trust that I'm being honest with my opinion.

In other words, I - as one person - have the ability to influence what people in three counties see in theaters. 

Never underestimate how much influence you can have with your friends and neighbors. 

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1 minute ago, Colirio said:


And that is my point. 
 

It’s not the hill that I’m willing to die on because, quite frankly, there are far more important concerns for my family. (Not of COVID vaccines, but of whether my child should go to BYU-H! 😁)  

 

To your point: 

I would say that when confronted with any choice in which a policy exists, for which I refuse to bend, I am left with three options. I can fight, I can leave, or I can adhere. 

If I am forced into a corner where no other alternative options exist, then I either fight or adhere. 
 

All of these options have consequences that I should weigh before making an important decision. 
 

So, to circle back again, the question remains as to whether this is the hill someone wants to die on. Because, IMO, getting a vaccine most likely isn’t the real issue for those wanting to make their stand here. Rather, I would assume that they are actually desiring to stand and fight for a deeper issue. (Ie. Removal of liberties, rebelling against social norms, rebelling against religious authority, rebelling against the opposing political party, standing up for religious ideals, simply wanting to bash the church, etc.) 

 

But, perhaps it is just that simple for someone. Maybe they have determined that this is the issue of their lifetime. This is the final line in the sand and they absolutely refuse to cross. And there is just no other school that should even be considered except BYU-H. I am certainly not their Master or their Judge. It just seems to me that a re-focusing of priorities might be needed. (That is not to say that I also don’t need to reprioritize the things in my life!) 

I understand and agree. If you meant BYU-H attendance then I tend to agree about not having that be the hill I'd die on. Unless......somehow I determined that the broader fight (freedom, censorship, etc.) needed to be fought on every front including that one...which I'm not sure I would..... Unless I felt that not fighting it at that level meant that down the road some law or rule would force me to vaccinate my child with an experimental non-FDA-approved something or other... So it's a bit of a tough choice honestly.

Really though, it's another battle in the war. The war is raging. But is every battle necessary to win, or is retreat viable in some cases without actually hurting the cause? It is my fear that the conservative approach tends to always be retreat. And obviously, hence, the war is being lost. Of course we know that in the "real" war, that the "right" side will win in the end. But in the meantime, what sort of horrors will we face because so many are willing to just shrug off each new thing as "not the hill to die on".

I really don't know.

I'm just speaking theoretically. In practice, I just don't know. It's so hard to judge when it is the time to declare, "The line must be drawn here! This far! No further!"

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2 minutes ago, Ironhold said:

IRL, I'm the entertainment writer for a local family of newspapers. 

I've had people tell me that they wait to get my review before deciding to see a movie or not. Even if they disagree with my review, they trust that I'm being honest with my opinion.

In other words, I - as one person - have the ability to influence what people in three counties see in theaters. 

Never underestimate how much influence you can have with your friends and neighbors. 

Well said. Thank you my friend 

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1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I understand and agree. If you meant BYU-H attendance then I tend to agree about not having that be the hill I'd die on. Unless......somehow I determined that the broader fight (freedom, censorship, etc.) needed to be fought on every front including that one...which I'm not sure I would..... Unless I felt that not fighting it at that level meant that down the road some law or rule would force me to vaccinate my child with an experimental non-FDA-approved something or other... So it's a bit of a tough choice honestly.

Really though, it's another battle in the war. The war is raging. But is every battle necessary to win, or is retreat viable in some cases without actually hurting the cause? It is my fear that the conservative approach tends to always be retreat. And obviously, hence, the war is being lost. Of course we know that in the "real" war, that the "right" side will win in the end. But in the meantime, what sort of horrors will we face because so many are willing to just shrug off each new thing as "not the hill to die on".

I really don't know.

I'm just speaking theoretically. In practice, I just don't know. It's so hard to judge when it is the time to declare, "The line must be drawn here! This far! No further!"


I wholeheartedly agree. 
 

For me, I keep coming back to what war we are actually fighting. What is the overall goal and what does it mean to win? I would assume, as we are members of the church, that exaltation is the goal. As priesthood holders, our goal is to get everyone else there with us. 

 

If that is the war being fought, over the souls of men and women, then things that don’t work towards that goal are either distractions at best or tools of the enemy at worst. 
 

For me, liberty and freedom from tyranny can certainly be valuable tools in alleviating the human suffering and conditions inherent from a fallen world. But those are only a means to our end goal. (And to be quite honest, it seems they have been rare throughout much of history.)
 

So, are liberty and freedom worthy battles to fight? The Book of Mormon teaches that they are, but with the caveat that we also love our enemies and do good to them that hurt us and pray for those who despitefully use us in the process. In other words, our hostility towards those who oppose us put us in jeopardy of falling short of our main goals. 
 

So, it seems to me WHAT battles we choose to fight are less important than HOW we choose to wage them. 

 

And, as I tend to become distracted and angry when it comes to certain political issues, it is probably best that I avoid them lest I should be choosing which hill that I spiritually die on. 

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4 hours ago, LDSGator said:

I think I fall short as an LDS because I just don’t see the world ending in three hours.

The day ain't over yet :)    But seriously, folks...

I don't believe it's ending in three hours either.  But your Vox link doesn't really mean much.  Most of those measures aren't as important as you seem to think.

The fact that fertility is decreasing is considered a positive?  Why?

Literacy increasing? Measured how?  

Quote

The man who doesn’t read good books has no advantage over the man who can’t read them.

I'll grant that more people can read.  But read well?  And what do they read?  How many people in first world countries have even opened a classic, much less read it? Senior law students don't even read the Federalist Papers.

I could go on.  But I'll sum up with: Yes, some things are getting better.  Some are not.  But the biggest point here is that in both your previous post as this one that I quoted is that you're not taking into account the eternal scheme.

  • How many people are coming to know Christ?
  • How many people are changing their lives because of that fact?
  • How are interpersonal relationships getting better because of how we treat each other?
  • How is the strength of the family in this era?
  • How many people spend their lives in service to others rather than for their own gain?

I honestly don't know the answers to these questions.  And further I don't know how anyone would be able to gather such statistics.  What kind of questions would you even ask?  How could we even verify the answers?  Maybe strength of the family is something that could at least be close to verifiable.

Without really having such data, it sure seems like more and more people are going away from God+family, and more towards their own gain at the cost of others.  Think about the pride-prosperity cycle.  Did all those Vox numbers really help the Nephites spirituality?  No, it hurt it.  And I find it interesting what side of that you seem to have come down on.

I'm not saying that the world will end in the next year or five years.  But to say that the REALLY IMPORTANT things are getting better in this world??? You're entitled to your opinion.  But... well... I'm not seeing it.

Edited by Carborendum

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9 minutes ago, LDSGator said:
Quote

...students and staff must be fully vaccinated against COVID-19 unless they qualify for a medical, religious or ethical exemption, or unless a student is attending a fully online program. Students who qualify for an exemption will need to take extra-precautionary measures on campus by wearing masks...

I don't see how this is any different than when we were required to get various immunizations as a child to attend public school.

Note the bold.  It seems that BYU-H doesn't accept the exemption.  But as others said, Hawaii is Hawaii.

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3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

You're entitled to your opinion.  But... well... I'm not seeing it.

No worries. We do see it vastly differently, that’s for sure. 

 

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

don't see how this is any different than when we were required to get various immunizations as a child to attend public school.

Yup, same here. I have no problem with it. You are free to not get the vaccine, and an institution is free to forbid you from going there. 

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All of Doctrine and Covenants section 63 is excellent, and worth another read, but many saints need to understand and accept verses 25 and 26 in greater abundance.

"Behold, the land of Zion—I, the Lord, hold it in mine own hands; Nevertheless, I, the Lord, render unto Cæsar the things which are Cæsar’s."

Administrative policies the church makes should not have any effect on testimony. This girl and her family obviously have an axe to grind. Have they prayed and asked the Lord what couse of action He thinks they should take...methinks not. He would not have them criticize one of His universities via national media. Church leaders are in very difficult positions with regards to all sorts of things, and it only gets harder as the church continues to fill various countries worldwide. The sifting continues.

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6 hours ago, Carborendum said:

The day ain't over yet :)    But seriously, folks...

I don't believe it's ending in three hours either.  But your Vox link doesn't really mean much.  Most of those measures aren't as important as you seem to think.

The fact that fertility is decreasing is considered a positive?  Why?

Literacy increasing? Measured how?  

I'll grant that more people can read.  But read well?  And what do they read?  How many people in first world countries have even opened a classic, much less read it? Senior law students don't even read the Federalist Papers.

I could go on.  But I'll sum up with: Yes, some things are getting better.  Some are not.  But the biggest point here is that in both your previous post as this one that I quoted is that you're not taking into account the eternal scheme.

  • How many people are coming to know Christ?
  • How many people are changing their lives because of that fact?
  • How are interpersonal relationships getting better because of how we treat each other?
  • How is the strength of the family in this era?
  • How many people spend their lives in service to others rather than for their own gain?

I honestly don't know the answers to these questions.  And further I don't know how anyone would be able to gather such statistics.  What kind of questions would you even ask?  How could we even verify the answers?  Maybe strength of the family is something that could at least be close to verifiable.

Without really having such data, it sure seems like more and more people are going away from God+family, and more towards their own gain at the cost of others.  Think about the pride-prosperity cycle.  Did all those Vox numbers really help the Nephites spirituality?  No, it hurt it.  And I find it interesting what side of that you seem to have come down on.

I'm not saying that the world will end in the next year or five years.  But to say that the REALLY IMPORTANT things are getting better in this world??? You're entitled to your opinion.  But... well... I'm not seeing it.

We murder babies.

We.  Murder.  Babies.

What careth our God if we also make the trains run on time?

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7 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Welp.

Our little minx seems to have gone whining to Hannity, whence her sob story was picked up and repeated by the Daily Mail.  

Whenever something unexpected happens, too often people cry out "why?" or "that's not fair!"

What I'm sitting here wondering is "What are her alternatives?"  The university already suggested she attend another Church School.  She said it was her "dream school".  I have no idea why BYU-H would be more preferable than BYU-P as far as academics except for particular fields of study -- even then it's almost a wash. 

When dealing with a private university, as Vort says, they have a right to require this.  And she has the right to go to another school if she disagrees with the policy.  So, why doesn't she?  Why hasn't she looked into the other schools?  I read that her scholarships are now "gone".  I've never heard of that. Most scholarships are transferable.  So, why is that even a factor?

How on earth did she even get $200k in scholarships for a school whose tuition is only 1/20th that?  Is she planning on attending while living in a 4 star hotel?  What's the deal?

Why is THAT particular school so important that she's raising this stink?  Has anyone even bothered to ask these questions?  I haven't read it in my limited exposure to this story.

I'd bet Provo would bend over backwards to help her get in to Provo just because of the situation she's in.  But she's stuck in this victim mindset so far that she's not even trying to figure this out.

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8 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

We murder babies.

We.  Murder.  Babies.

What careth our God if we also make the trains run on time?

When values are mixed up like this, it is no wonder why there are so many efforts to say, "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.  All's well in Babylon."

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In the scriptures we read the the number of the faithful will be few.  The scriptures then compare the faithful to leaven... where a small amount can lift the whole thing.  So when it comes to the rest of the world we have to engage... thus we need to make allies and stuff.  The problems we run into is when we forget our role to lift in order to stay allies.

I think Trump was a good example of this, many of the faithful thought they should ally with him and his movement.  There was nothing wrong with that.  However too many thought that being an ally meant we shouldn't be trying to lift including making excuses for poor behavior.

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