How will you follow the Prophet’s Counsel?


Fether
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1 hour ago, Traveler said:

If someone felt better about going to church if I wore a mask - I would do it for them - even if they are in our first presidency.

 

The Traveler

What about the people who are uncomfortable going to church because of the masks?

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15 minutes ago, Fether said:

Was anyone against vaccines and masks before the letter, but are now going to get a vaccine and start wearing masks?

My mindset has not changed. I do not believe the First Presidency intended to make a medical statement when they called the current vaccines safe and effective. Rather I believe they were using language that reflected the thoughts of the current 'mainstream' health leaders in a PR statement addressing the issue.

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4 minutes ago, clwnuke said:

My mindset has not changed. I do not believe the First Presidency intended to make a medical statement when they called the current vaccines safe and effective. Rather I believe they were using language that reflected the thoughts of the current 'mainstream' health leaders in a PR statement addressing the issue.

Do you believe the first presidency wants everyone to wear masks and get vaccinated?

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8 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

What about the people who are uncomfortable going to church because of the masks?

As someone who hates masks… that is silly. If they can’t because of medical reasons, then they shouldn’t wear a mask.

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4 minutes ago, Fether said:

As someone who hates masks… that is silly. If they can’t because of medical reasons, then they shouldn’t wear a mask.

For you to dismiss something that many feel very, very strongly about as silly doesn't resonate with me at all. 

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1 minute ago, Fether said:

Do you believe the first presidency wants everyone to wear masks and get vaccinated?

Absolutely, but with qualifiers that are often neglected. "Individuals are responsible to make their own decisions about vaccination. In making that determination, we recommend that, where possible, they counsel with a competent medical professional about their personal circumstances and needs." That was clear in their January 19, 2021 release. Nothing of substance changed in their recent admonition other than the mention of masks.  Church News articles emphasized that President Nelson described how he had counseled with his wife and personal physician prior to making his individual decision to be vaccinated. He expected us to follow the same process, which many church members had already done months before the First Presidency message.

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9 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

For you to dismiss something that many feel very, very strongly about as silly doesn't resonate with me at all. 

Hence the importance of educating people why mask mandates do not work unless everyone wears them everywhere 24x7. It's natural for people to assume that since masks can reduce transmission while worn, they should therefore reduce case loads. But they don't. You just catch it via another vector at another time is what the data shows us. Strong feelings + understanding will hopefully mitigate the contention.

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6 hours ago, mikbone said:

The best thing to come out of Covid-19 is that I can now watch first run movies in my home without having to listen to my neighbor eat popcorn.
Worth.
Psyched for Dune.

Agreed, and me too.  Also, I saw a chart from the Wall Street Journal the other week, showing that money invested in startups has like tripled since 2020.  A good worldwide disruption like COVID will fuel innovation and people come up with new and creative ways to do things that established entities are too slow or dumb to figure out.  If it wasn't for all the death, suffering, and higher rates of bad things, I'd be a fan.   

 

2 hours ago, mikbone said:

How are we going to feel when 80 year old Ms. Smith dies from COVID that she likely got in church.

If Ms. Smith chose not to get her shot, I'd feel sad for her family, wish she had made other choices, but respect her agency.  If given a chance to do so respectfully, I'd use her sad tale as a motivator for the next umpteen vaccine-hesitant folks I came across. 

Because, again and forever, the vaccine is wildly effective.  The Ms.' Smiths of the world can get the shot and be like 288 times LESS likely to get sick or die of COVID, no matter who gives it to them, or which variant is given. 

 

2 hours ago, laronius said:

I would wish a pox upon you but you'd just go to church and give it to everyone else.

First time I've laughed in 18 months.  Thanks!  And consider your comment stolen by me!

 

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

If someone felt better about going to church if I wore a mask - I would do it for them

That's basically why I've worn a mask since the very start.

 

1 hour ago, clwnuke said:

1. Masks ARE effective, and

2. Mask mandates are NOT effective.

Best dang summary of a complex topic I've seen all year.  Stealing this too.

Edited by NeuroTypical
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40 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

For you to dismiss something that many feel very, very strongly about as silly doesn't resonate with me at all. 

My apologize. Please help me understand. provide to me a scenario where someone may feel justifiably uncomfortable about others wearing masks

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33 minutes ago, clwnuke said:

Absolutely, but with qualifiers that are often neglected. "Individuals are responsible to make their own decisions about vaccination. In making that determination, we recommend that, where possible, they counsel with a competent medical professional about their personal circumstances and needs." That was clear in their January 19, 2021 release. Nothing of substance changed in their recent admonition other than the mention of masks.  Church News articles emphasized that President Nelson described how he had counseled with his wife and personal physician prior to making his individual decision to be vaccinated. He expected us to follow the same process, which many church members had already done months before the First Presidency message.

This seems to be a a very unique and particular situation in which people with ore existing conditions would be excluded. Not situations where someone simply doesn’t want to.

Did you talk to your physician yet? Did he recommend you not take it?

Is a practicing physician telling you not to get the vaccine the only situation where this counsel can be justifiably ignored?

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1 minute ago, Fether said:

My apologize. Please help me understand. provide to me a scenario where someone may feel justifiably uncomfortable about others wearing masks

Why does their discomfort have to conform to your view of things? The plain fact is that the mask wearing has caused many to stop attending. I am concerned for those individuals every bit as much as I am those who stopped attending because some won't wear masks. Both are irrational in my view.

 

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2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Why does their discomfort have to conform to your view of things?

It doesn’t. That is why I’m asking you to help me understand. Why are people uncomfortable with wearing masks? The only thing that comes to mind is people are more sold on their political prophets than on God’s Prophet

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10 minutes ago, Fether said:

It doesn’t. That is why I’m asking you to help me understand. Why are people uncomfortable with wearing masks? The only thing that comes to mind is people are more sold on their political prophets than on God’s Prophet

I don't read other people's minds. I can sort of describe my feelings. But the why is beyond my point. I can't understand how anyone thinks masks do any good. And I can't understand how someone could be so against masks that they stop coming to church over it. But both exist. Because both extreme pro and anti mask people exist in my ward, if compassion for others' feelings is the reason I chose to act then I'm bound to fail.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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28 minutes ago, Fether said:

This seems to be a a very unique and particular situation in which people with ore existing conditions would be excluded. Not situations where someone simply doesn’t want to.

Did you talk to your physician yet? Did he recommend you not take it? Is a practicing physician telling you not to get the vaccine the only situation where this counsel can be justifiably ignored?

I mean no offense, but none of that is implied directly or indirectly in the First Presidency's statements. To your other questions - yes, no the decision was left to me, and the First Presidency put no conditions on what was or was not a 'justifiable' decision.

Funny, how I had this similar conversation while I was at my pharmacy receiving the second dose of my Shingles vaccine several months ago, and the pharmacist knew so little about virology but was adamant about his feelings that I should get the J&J vaccine. I mentioned that I had been an investor in vaccine development and was very familiar with the approval process that had not been completed for the three available vaccines. I then told him that I would gladly take the Covaxin vaccine when it became available in this country. He didn't even know about it, but that didn't surprise me. He was just parroting what he was reading in mainstream media. Beware of low-knowledge medical personnel recommending what your health care should entail. Medicine is no different than any other profession, there are a few stellar people and the rest are just doing their jobs.

Now, how about some fair questions for you - If President Nelson had counseled with Wendy and she had determined that she would not be taking the vaccine, would it have made any difference to President Nelson? Would he have delayed his vaccination in solidarity with her and delayed the First Presidency statement? And, are you certain that there wasn't a delay in issuing the statement for that very reason?

Edited by clwnuke
bad grammar
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11 minutes ago, clwnuke said:

If President Nelson had counseled with Wendy and she had determined that she would not be taking the vaccine, would it have made any difference to President Nelson? Would he have delayed his vaccination in solidarity with her and delayed the First Presidency statement? And, are you certain that there wasn't a delay in issuing the statement for that very reason?

I personally believe the statement was entirely PR. But I also believe I’m not in a place to make that judgment. I find that such reading between the lines is one of the little ways Satan will pry at my testimony, as mentioned in my patriarchal blessing.

So to answer your question, I don’t think it would have had any affect in the statement. And yes, I imagine some delay was had in releasing the statement as they craft exactly what they wanted to say for legal purposes

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7 minutes ago, Fether said:

I personally believe the statement was entirely PR. But I also believe I’m not in a place to make that judgment. I find that such reading between the lines is one of the little ways Satan will pry at my testimony, as mentioned in my patriarchal blessing.

So to answer your question, I don’t think it would have had any affect in the statement. And yes, I imagine some delay was had in releasing the statement as they craft exactly what they wanted to say for legal purposes

Then we are of similar mind. As President of the Church I would probably have done the same things they have done, but I have not reached that same spiritual conclusion at this time. I do plan to be vaccinated, but I have to wait for the two vaccines I trust to become available. Thanks for a great discussion!

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2 minutes ago, clwnuke said:

Then we are of similar mind. As President of the Church I would probably have done the same things they have done, but I have not reached that same spiritual conclusion at this time. I do plan to be vaccinated, but I have to wait for the two vaccines I trust to become available. Thanks for a great discussion!

My questions were just that. Just trying to understand why people do what they do.

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3 hours ago, mikbone said:

How are we going to feel when 80 year old Ms. Smith dies from COVID that she likely got in church.  And although we wear masks and have been vaccinated it is possible that we were the vector that transmitted the virus to her?

As a parental defender, and then again as an attorney for DCFS, I’ve had parents I was either representing or suing commit suicide while their cases were pending; and I’ve grappled with the possibility/probability that in some scenario, if I’d handled my business differently, that person would still be alive.

You get used to it.

And in this hypothetical case—it’s not like someone sought a court order compelling Sister Smith to come to church against her own wishes.  We make concessions for each other as part of our covenant to bear each other’s burdens (masks, sanitizer, vaccinations, distancing, etc); but at some point, people have to assume primary responsibility over their own health.  

 

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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10 minutes ago, clwnuke said:

Then we are of similar mind. As President of the Church I would probably have done the same things they have done, but I have not reached that same spiritual conclusion at this time. I do plan to be vaccinated, but I have to wait for the two vaccines I trust to become available. Thanks for a great discussion!

Out of curiosity (and apologies if you’ve discussed this elsewhere)—

—Which vaccine(s) are you waiting for?

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9 hours ago, Fether said:

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/first-presidency-message-covid-19-august-2021
 

“To limit exposure to these viruses, we urge the use of face masks in public meetings whenever social distancing is not possible. To provide personal protection from such severe infections, we urge individuals to be vaccinated. Available vaccines have proven to be both safe and effective.

We can win this war if everyone will follow the wise and thoughtful recommendations of medical experts and government leaders. Please know of our sincere love and great concern for all of God’s children.

The First Presidency

Russell M. Nelson
Dallin H. Oaks
Henry B. Eyring”

I am in Utah and in a massive small town conservative bubble. I had a conversation about this with my Latter-day Saint co-workers. In the past they have always spoken about being faithful about everything the prophet says and how it’s confusing when people don’t follow even basic counsels from the Prophet.

In this conversation, the consensus was that (1) if it isn’t a temple reccomend question, it isn’t important and (2) it was a PR move only so therefore we don’t need to follow. I was not Convinced this was so… though admittedly I still didn’t want to follow the counsel. we ended up having a spirited conversation about it.

I figured I would pass this discussion to the board.

How will you react to the prophets counsel? Wil you start wearing masks even where it isn’t mandated? Will you be getting the vaccine?

If you are not going to do either, what is your reasoning 

What's already done: All eligible folks in my family got vaccinated as soon as they were able to.  My daughter was/is too young.  Everyone distanced and wore masks very diligently through middle of summer, despite frequently being the only persons in the room to do so.   We did start attending in-person church again, my daughter frequently being the only kid in Primary to mask.  Our interactions with non-family were small in count (+outside + cautious), but super important to us.  through July we were less masked, but still cautious.  

What's now being done, as the result of life events + numbers going crazy + First Presidency letter: putting the mask back on and more reclusive.  If the only people at risk were adults whom willfully choose to not vax, that would be one thing (my sympathy is low for them).  But it's not: we still have unprotected kids, including our new baby, all of those people whom still need medical care to be available for non-covid stuff, and exhausted health care workers like my dad.  And my duty as a responsible citizen / child-of-God is not yet done.    So, back to stronger caution for us.  I really really want to be able to work full-time from home again.  I've postponed baby's baby blessing.  I'm really hesitant about continuing in-person church, knowing how so many of my ward are very un-cautious.  

As to folks that have other views:  I'm tired.  I acknowledge your view, same I think it's dumb or wise.  But i don't want to have this conversation again with folks I know surface-level in real life.  I'm just too tired, and hate how this whole thing has become crazy political and extreme-ified.  I don't want to hear my literal neighbors rant about the whole thing (whether it's a wise or dumb perspective), I'd rather just care for you without that contention.  

Edited by Jane_Doe
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45 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I don't read other people's minds. I can sort of describe my feelings. But the why is beyond my point. I can't understand how anyone thinks masks do any good. And I can't understand how someone could be so against masks that they stop coming to church over it. But both exist. Because both extreme pro and anti mask people exist in my ward, if compassion for others' feelings is the reason I chose to act then I'm bound to fail.

It seems to me, though, that when you have two groups of people with sincere beliefs that dictate mutually incompatible courses of action and you’re ultimately going to have to choose one course of action over the other—you have to start looking at the evidence underlying those beliefs.  

There is evidence suggesting that masks are *somewhat* effective in inhibiting the spread of viral diseases.  They’re not foolproof, but they help.  

I am not aware of any evidence suggesting that two hours of mask-wearing while performing largely sedentary activities, causes any physiological harm at all.  Zero.  Zilch.  Nada.

I’m all for bearing one another’s burdens and not creating unnecessary stumbling blocks; but having everyone else bend over backwards so that the shrillest or least-rational voices don’t have to compromise at all is no way to run a church (or any other human institution).

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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24 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Out of curiosity (and apologies if you’ve discussed this elsewhere)—

—Which vaccine(s) are you waiting for?

Novavax and/or Covaxin. Novavax is actually the most effective Covid vaccine in the world and is based on protein sub-unit technology, similar to the pertussis vaccine. Covaxin is India's home developed vaccine based upon inactivated whole virus technology. I'm partial to Covaxin but would take either :)

Edited by clwnuke
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8 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I’m all for bearing one another’s burdens and not creating unnecessary stumbling blocks; but having everyone else bend over backwards so that the shrillest or least-rational voices don’t have to compromise at all is no way to run a church (or any other human institution).

I'm not sure why you seem to be assuming I'm in favor of bending over backwards for shrill irrationality. I think my point was the exact opposite of that. ;)

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