How will you follow the Prophet’s Counsel?


Fether
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Just now, Grunt said:

 

I believe we should all err on the side of following the Prophet in all things.   I see no downside to doing so and potential issues with not doing so.  That said, I don't think the consequences for not following the Prophet are the same for all things.

Do you think the prophet has inside knowledge about the long term side effects of the vaccine? He didn't mention it. 

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5 hours ago, dprh said:

That is an incredible comparison.  2020 COVID deaths were about 350k.  2018 abortions (the latest I could find) were over 600k! :( 

I know right! I think it is harsh and to be honest apples and oranges comparison, but I was only making the comparison in light of the "murder" reference. I have seen it on Facebook from good friends of mine. So, I find it (personally) hard to swallow this declaration when they support an elective surgery that ends the most innocent stage of our human life cycle, and which has ended more lives than Covid will ever take.

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On 8/15/2021 at 10:50 AM, Fether said:

How will you react to the prophets counsel? Wil you start wearing masks even where it isn’t mandated? Will you be getting the vaccine?

I've already been vaccinated.  I'm not sure if I will get or need a booster (I read that they have been approved for everyone this past week I think).  I think I'll see if it adds added protection against more virile variants if they become prevalent or start to become prevalent (lambda variant for example).

I have started wearing the masks in social settings as of this past week.  Sometimes it is easy, sometimes it is not.  I am having a grandson getting married soon, not sure if they will ask masks to be worn or not.  That may be one of the hardest times and places for me to wear a mask, but unless the First Presidency says otherwise, I am going to plan on wearing a mask (there, I wrote it down so now I'm committed.  Strange how writing something down can firm up one's resolve to do something that they were struggling with previously).

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On 8/15/2021 at 7:26 PM, Fether said:

I personally believe the statement was entirely PR.

While I don't think  it was entirely PR, I think there was a bit of PR there.  The Church is NOT JUST the U.S. and some of the reports have associated with bad PR recently.  Things are going on in the rest of the world.  I'm not sure how much traction this will get with the rest of the world, but in my opinion this probably is GOOD PR for the Church for once, especially as it is the Church leadership behind it.

The thing is, the items they stated is NOT a new thing, nor is it a change of church policy or requests.  This has been longstanding since the early part of 2021.  It just reiterates what has already been known.  In truth, it doesn't really ADD anything except state once again in stronger language what their position has been all along.

Hence, there wasn't an absolute need for it per se.  In that light, it could be seen as a purely PR move to show that the Church is standing behind science and trying to be good neighbors and friends to all of the world.

ON the OTHERHAND, things were getting a bit murky for some.  I know that when I had left it had seemed as if the requirement for masks in the US had been relaxed for those who were vaccinated (and I'm still catching up on things, currently, it seems masks are back to being suggested again, even for the vaccinated).  I was going to be happy to not wear masks to church and other places...but I have now changed my mind in light of the reiteration of the church's stance on things currently.  I am trying to follow the guidance given in this most recent letter.

I think it is reinforcing the church position not just to non-members, but also to Members and to inspire them to follow the Church guidance (though, as always, it ultimately is our choice on whether to do so or not).

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23 hours ago, Fether said:

The difference is that there wasn’t a question about PR back then. Today, it seems to me that PR is a big deal to the church. That is where people are having the hang up.

There were questions about the public image of the Church and leaders, they were just not framed in our terminology as "PR" -- that was the whole resistance to publishing the Book of Commandments and particualr revelations.

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21 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

But does anyone really believe the question of our worthiness on judgment day will be, "Why didn't you get the Covid vaccine?"

Probably not; though for some of us, whether or not we get the COVID vaccine may influence just how soon judgment day comes.

On the PR issue:  there’s certainly a benefit to being seen as good citizens, “good soldiers” in a time of crisis, etc.  But that doesn’t mean that President Nelson saying “please do x” is implicitly followed by a wink and an unspoken “but, not really”.  Even if the value of the statement is primarily PR, the PR value comes from the fact that people expect the Saints to actually do what the prophet has said.  

As the article I linked to earlier suggests—sometimes Church leaders just plain ask us to do things that are to our material detriment, or even just plain get us killed. The fact that we believe a prophet’s counsel may be detrimental to our material prospects in mortality, is ultimately no reason not to follow it.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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I think this quote from the last general conference by Pres Nelson tells us from what perspective this recent communication and the brethren's general approach to the virus they are operating:

"Do all you can to bring COVID-19 numbers down in your area so that your temple opportunities can increase."

Whether it truly becomes too dangerous or govt officials just overreact, if a temple closes the result is the same - the work doesn't happen. So whether the use of the vaccine and masks mitigates the effects of the virus or mollifies overreaching officials the result is the same - the work gets done. Like @JohnsonJones said there isn't anything new here. I personally believe that the vaccine is a manifestation of Gods grace to us in answer to prayer and while I'm still undecided on how much masks actually work I do believe they can have a placebo type effect in making people more cautious than they might be otherwise.

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16 minutes ago, laronius said:

personally believe that the vaccine is a manifestation of Gods grace to us in answer to prayer

Amen. My thoughts as well. 
 

We’ve all heard the parable of the man in the flood who asks God to save him multiple times, has those offers, and when he dies he asks God “But I put my faith in you!” God says “Yes, and I tried to help you twice. What did you expect?” 
 

same thing. 

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4 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

for some of us, whether or not we get the COVID vaccine may influence just how soon judgment day comes.

My inner conspiracy theorist is skeptical. 

But.... to clarify my point... the issue at judgement day is going to be, why didn't you follow the Prophet?

A righteous, humbly person who dies of Covid has nothing to fear.

It's a question, as it always is, of humility vs. pride.

If a humble servant of God feels, in humility and good faith, they shouldn't get the vaccine and then die from not getting it.... do we really believe that God will callously disregard their humility, service, faith and righteous desires because of this one thing?

Obviously, to me, the broader issue of humility and faith is what's at stake. I think a lot of those concerned with the vaccine need to take a close look at their hearts to that end. If they feel confident, doing so, that they are in good order in that regard and still feel right about not getting the vaccine, who are we to judge?

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

My inner conspiracy theorist is skeptical. 

But.... to clarify my point... the issue at judgement day is going to be, why didn't you follow the Prophet?

A righteous, humbly person who dies of Covid has nothing to fear.

It's a question, as it always is, of humility vs. pride.

 

Yep.  I think I’m less worried about any particular instance of “following the prophet” (or not) getting brought up on judgment day, than about how the kind of person that my action in that instance has led me to become.

When it comes to the prophets, I want to be the kind of person who defaults to trust unless the Lord guides me to suspicion; rather than the reverse.  I want to be a person who looks for reasons to obey.  I want to be a person who chooses to trust.  I don’t want to be a person who says “This Magog fellow is actually making some really good points, and my scientific questions haven’t been answered yet, and we all know that Michael is only an archangel when he is acting as such, so . . .” So yeah, I don’t think the vaccine issue (or perhaps any other specific charge) will be listed on one’s heavenly indictment; but how I handle the vaccine issue may be an indicator of where I am now, and a (significant?) step in the direction of where I will wind up.

(In skimming through this thread yesterday, I thought I saw some other poster making more or less the same point; but I can’t seem to find that post now. Apologies if I have inadvertently plagiarized anybody else!)

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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A previous prophets' instructions to "mask up" in a different context, and the result of following that prophet's counsel:

19  And when the armies of the Lamanites saw that the people of Nephi, or that Moroni, had prepared his people with breastplates and with arm-shields, yea, and also shields to defend their heads, and also they were dressed with thick clothing—

20  Now the army of Zerahemnah was not prepared with any such thing; they had only their swords and their cimeters, their bows and their arrows, their stones and their slings; and they were naked, save it were a skin which was girded about their loins; yea, all were naked, save it were the Zoramites and the Amalekites;

Alma 43:19 - 20

 

37  And the work of death commenced on both sides, but it was more dreadful on the part of the Lamanites, for their nakedness was exposed to the heavy blows of the Nephites with their swords and their cimeters, which brought death almost at every stroke.

38  While on the other hand, there was now and then a man fell among the Nephites, by their swords and the loss of blood, they being shielded from the more vital parts of the body, or the more vital parts of the body being shielded from the strokes of the Lamanites, by their breastplates, and their armshields, and their head-plates; and thus the Nephites did carry on the work of death among the Lamanites.

Alma 43:37 - 38

 

18  But behold, their naked skins and their bare heads were exposed to the sharp swords of the Nephites; yea, behold they were pierced and smitten, yea, and did fall exceedingly fast before the swords of the Nephites; and they began to be swept down, even as the soldier of Moroni had prophesied.

Alma 44:18

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I'm starting to wander if there are any modern day parallels between this discussion about the prophet's counsel to be vaccinated and what happened to the children of Israel in the wilderness.

 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
7  ¶ Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us.  And Moses prayed for the people.
8  And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
9  And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

(Old Testament | Numbers 21:6 - 9)

And we know what Nephi said about this:

41  And he did straiten them in the wilderness with his rod; for they hardened their hearts, even as ye have; and the Lord straitened them because of their iniquity.  He sent fiery flying serpents among them; and after they were bitten he prepared a way that they might be healed; and the labor which they had to perform was to look; and because of the simpleness of the way, or the easiness of it, there were many who perished.

(Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 17:41)

I can almost imagine the discussions going on in the tents of the Israelites as to whether or not they should look at the brass serpant, and whether the advice applied to them or not or whether or not Moses was or was not qualified to give such advice.

Edited by askandanswer
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Does anyone remember the 5th of November?  Does this movie strike anyone else as prophetic?

“but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? War, terror, disease. There were a myriad of problems which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense.”

“You wear a mask for so long, you forget who you were beneath it.”

“Knowledge, like air, is vital to life. Like air, no one should be denied it.”

“Behind this mask there is more than just flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea... and ideas are bulletproof.”

Edited by mikbone
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Okay.  I have some thoughts on this. I am surprised others haven't already pointed them out.  I will quote portions of the statement made by the First Presidency and then provide my personal commentary.

Quote

We want to do all we can to limit the spread of these viruses.

If the leaders and members of the Church were to enact this statement to its literal fulfillment, we would return to remote only Church.  In all sincerity, that would be more preferable to me than Church attendance with masks.  I personally have extreme difficulty devoting any type of focus while wearing the mask, mostly because I struggle to avoid thinking about it and noticing how annoying it is.  That said, I don't want to limit my children to remote participation which is less effective for them.

Serious question:  If leaders and members are willing to disregard the above council by taking the risk of spreading the virus during in person services, why should other members feel any obligation to wear masks during those services?  If we are to interpret the above statement differently, then why wouldn't we interpret the statement on masks differently.

Quote

We know that protection from the diseases they cause can only be achieved by immunizing a very high percentage of the population.

Immunization occurs in two ways:

  • When one acquires and defeats/overcomes an infection.
  • When one is vaccinated against infection.

Notice they did not specify that the protection can only be achieved by vaccination.

Quote

To limit exposure to these viruses, we urge the use of face masks in public meetings whenever social distancing is not possible.

What if social distancing is possible, but people just aren't doing it?  I have done my best to be obedient to this request by social distancing with my family, and putting on my mask when I am in situations where it is not possible, however, I have been dealing with an internal struggle as to whether or not I will continue doing this, as it is truly destroying my Sabbath experience and I am experiencing a great deal of anxiety over it.

Quote

To provide personal protection from such severe infections, we urge individuals to be vaccinated.

Notice the reason they urge vaccination is not to limit viral spread, but instead to provide personal protection from severe infection.  Given my age group and health, it is not necessary to be vaccinated to achieve this result.  That said, I have told my grandmother and others that the vaccines are unlikely to cause harm and are likely to be beneficial and if I were elderly, I would seriously consider getting vaccinated.

Quote

We can win this war if everyone will follow the wise and thoughtful recommendations of medical experts and government leaders.

This statement is very ambiguous, and it makes sense to me why.  This statement makes it clear that each individual may consider the recommendations of the medical experts and government leaders they trust.  There are obviously many doctors and government leaders who recommend vaccination, including former President Trump.  There are also medical experts who recommend it only for adults, and others who recommend it only for the elderly and those with co-morbidities.  And there are a few who don't recommend it at all.

The only doctor who lives in my ward is a cancer surgeon and has chosen not to get the vaccine and also expressed that even upon reviewing available studies, and the data, that masking is ineffective.  I met with my ENT earlier this week and he is sick and tired of the masks and believes they are unnecessary (he did not specify ineffective, only unnecessary), especially at this point, but he did choose to get vaccinated.  Both of these individuals are at least 55 or older.

Should I choose not to wear a mask and not to be vaccinated, I would still be fully adhering to this portion of the recent announcement because I have reviewed the available data for myself and also discussed with medical experts to advise my opinion, and am following the thoughtful recommendations of the medical experts I trust.

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image.thumb.png.b46aa1287607286e6d157691b8287ec9.png

Link | Context

The CDC itself acknowledges that only masks that are at least to the standards of N95 masks and which have also been fit tested with a confirmed seal check for each fitting are effective at providing protection.  Even in a scenario that is fully compliant to those standards, it is still recommended that a physician change masks after each patient visit.  How long do those last?  Like 5 - 10 minutes at most in my experience.

The CDC also acknowledges that surgical masks cannot provide any reliable wearer protection.  Even more, they provide protection only from large droplets, splashes or sprays.  Medically, large droplets are considered those greater than or equal to 100 micrometers (1/10 of a milimeter), such as those produced from coughing, sneezing, and occasionally from very heavy breathing.  And the use limitation is that they should be discarded after each patient encounter, which as noted before, is a very brief period of time, vastly shorter than the two hours we are in Church.

There are other recent CDC documents which list additional voids to protection that occur when touching and/or adjusting masks, for those who have facial hair (I do).  Similarly CDC guidelines indicate that masks must be replaced after coughing or sneezing, and the like.

The reality is that, even if there is a use case where masks are effective, no one is wearing them and abiding the proper usage guidance enough to provide any real world benefit.  The CDC even admits something along those lines in one of the recent studies I have read, to the extent of undermining their own statements within the same study.  Behold:

Quote

Universal masking is recommended to slow the spread of COVID-19. Cloth masks and medical procedure masks substantially reduce exposure from infected wearers (source control) and reduce exposure of uninfected wearers (wearer exposure).
. . .
The findings in this report are subject to at least four limitations. First, these experiments were conducted with one type of medical procedure mask and one type of cloth mask among the many choices that are commercially available and were intended to provide data about their relative performance in a controlled setting. The findings of these simulations should neither be generalized to the effectiveness of all medical procedure masks or cloths masks nor interpreted as being representative of the effectiveness of these masks when worn in real-world settings. Second, these experiments did not include any other combinations of masks, such as cloth over cloth, medical procedure mask over medical procedure mask, or medical procedure mask over cloth. Third, these findings might not be generalizable to children because of their smaller size or to men with beards and other facial hair, which interfere with fit. Finally, although use of double masking or knotting and tucking are two of many options that can optimize fit and enhance mask performance for source control and for wearer protection, double masking might impede breathing or obstruct peripheral vision for some wearers, and knotting and tucking can change the shape of the mask such that it no longer covers fully both the nose and the mouth of persons with larger faces.

At the minimum, I find it is completely reasonable to believe that generalized masking is a wasted effort, the effect of which is negligible at best.  Hence, in reference to the topic at hand, it is likewise reasonable to conclude, all things considered, that the recent statement and encouragements from the First Presidency has other intentions which are not related to medical efficacy.

My thoughts. I appreciate your patience with the length.

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On 8/15/2021 at 2:36 PM, LDSGator said:

I hope some people who used to lecture others about following the prophet but now are refusing to do so when it’s something they don’t like end up with more empathy when they encounter other members struggling with this or that teaching. But I’m not optimistic.

Although I haven't yet decided if I will stop wearing the masks when unable to social distance, the struggle in and of itself has led to a great deal of empathy.  That said, I've never been much bothered by people ignoring non-doctrinal items that are matters of policy.  It concerns me when doctrine is disregarded in favor of the philosophies of men, which I see a great deal of in the Church these days.

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12 hours ago, person0 said:

At the minimum, I find it is completely reasonable to believe that generalized masking is a wasted effort, the effect of which is negligible at best.

 

11 hours ago, askandanswer said:

never did I imagine that it would be disputes about vaccinations and wearking masks. 

 

I'm reminded of the story we tell our missionaries to keep 'em motivated.  Dude walking along the beach, where the millions of starfish that had been swept in with the tide are all dying on the beach.  Dude is walking along tossing them back when he comes to them, happy as a clam.  They ask Dude "there's no way you can save them all, or even a statistically relevant portion of them!  Your effort are negligible at best - it simply doesn't matter!"   He picks up a starfish and chucks it back into the ocean, "It mattered to this one!"

It's a similar thing with masks.  Even a barely-noticable reduction in risk, when you are looking at an entire population, means lives are saved.

(Yes, a good response, is nobody is forcing the man to toss starfish.  That's a valid point.)

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27 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

It's a similar thing with masks.  Even a barely-noticable reduction in risk, when you are looking at an entire population, means lives are saved.

I don't actually believe there is any real-world reduction in risk at all.  Not even a minimal amount.  I was just being polite.  However, even if we assume there is a minimal reduction in risk for COVID, that still doesn't account for the increase in risk for other ailments, including mental illness.

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