Why did we fight a war in Afghanistan?


Traveler
 Share

Recommended Posts

https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2021/08/17/barbara-lee-afghanistan-vote/

Remember this?

 

“but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? War, terror, disease. There were a myriad of problems which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense.”

Edited by mikbone
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We (and the UK is as much a part of this as the US) went there because we had to do something in response to the 9/11 attacks. If we hadn't we'd have looked like the meek kid in the playground who doesn't punch back. (And we all know how that invites further punches from every cowardly little jerk who wouldn't have dared knock away Tiny Tim's crutch if he'd thought there was the slightest chance of a reprisal.) And we stayed there for 20 years with the idea of making Afghanistan into some kind of Western cultural colony where girls get to go to school and can hold posts in government. All well and good. But what was the point of it if the minute we leave it all collapses and said girls are all put to death by the Taliban? Were we not supposed to be training the Afghan Army, so that they could hold their own when we finally pulled out? We made a really good job of that, didn't we?

Edited by Jamie123
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

I may be wrong but I blame the Afghan Security Forces for just giving up and not even putting up a decent fight with the Taliban.  They had over fifteen years to get their act together and they did not.

I would point out that our government said the Taliban took over more quickly than they thought. Meaning the US knew the Taliban would take over. They knew the Afghan army was not equipped enough to fight the Taliban. We left them to their demise. And when it fell, the response was “that was quicker than we thought”. https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/16/politics/biden-afghanistan-speech/index.html

And as for the army itself, I think it was more complicated than a strong nation helping a small nation become strong and they refusing to. From what so understand, Afghanistan isn't really a United nation, but rather groups of warlords that rule different areas. There is no sense of nationality. It’s full of corruption, lack of proper schooling, a corrupt view on morality, and many other issues.

I don’t know why this all happened the way it did, but we can’t treat Afghanistan like little America.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Godless
14 hours ago, Fether said:

I would point out that our government said the Taliban took over more quickly than they thought. Meaning the US knew the Taliban would take over. They knew the Afghan army was not equipped enough to fight the Taliban. We left them to their demise. And when it fell, the response was “that was quicker than we thought”. https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/16/politics/biden-afghanistan-speech/index.html

I'm not an intelligence official or an Army general, and I could have told you that the Taliban was going to come back when we left. It was going to be Iraq all over again. So yes, the only surprising thing (which maybe shouldn't have been surprising, I suppose) is how quickly it all fell apart. It shouldn't surprise anyone that things fell apart in the first place. We could/should have been better prepared for evacuations though.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Godless said:

I'm not an intelligence official or an Army general, and I could have told you that the Taliban was going to come back when we left. It was going to be Iraq all over again. So yes, the only surprising thing (which maybe shouldn't have been surprising, I suppose) is how quickly it all fell apart. It shouldn't surprise anyone that things fell apart in the first place. We could/should have been better prepared for evacuations though.

 

I believe it's worse than Iraq by a far margin.  Iraq had some semblance of nationalism with them and did actually manage to resist ISIS in part, eventually also being part of the forces that pushed them back.

Afghanistan basically just thumped over, though there is some resistance now in some areas going on, though not from the government that has a legacy from the US.  It's more a tribal resistance, I suppose we'll see how it goes over the next few weeks/months.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

This was updated on the 27th of August 2021 I believe:

Nazarene Fund founder Glenn Beck announced that the charity has managed to airlift 5,100 Christians out of Taliban-controlled Afghanistan over the last week, using the more than $30 million in funds donated by Beck’s radio show listeners.

http://memoryholeblog.org/2021/08/31/glenn-becks-nazarene-fund-airlifts-5100-christians-from-afghanistan/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

This was updated on the 27th of August 2021 I believe:

Nazarene Fund founder Glenn Beck announced that the charity has managed to airlift 5,100 Christians out of Taliban-controlled Afghanistan over the last week, using the more than $30 million in funds donated by Beck’s radio show listeners.

http://memoryholeblog.org/2021/08/31/glenn-becks-nazarene-fund-airlifts-5100-christians-from-afghanistan/

There seems to be some confusion here; Tim Ballard stated that the number was more on the order of 2,000 when he announced the end of operations at the Kabul airport.  I guess time will tell . . .

Edited by Just_A_Guy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

This was updated on the 27th of August 2021 I believe:

Nazarene Fund founder Glenn Beck announced that the charity has managed to airlift 5,100 Christians out of Taliban-controlled Afghanistan over the last week, using the more than $30 million in funds donated by Beck’s radio show listeners.

http://memoryholeblog.org/2021/08/31/glenn-becks-nazarene-fund-airlifts-5100-christians-from-afghanistan/

I am glad you brought this up.  It appears to me that ever since the fall of the Shaw of Iran that there have been movements throughout the Muslim communities of the world to enact Sharia Law.  The problem is that there is divergence and much disagreement over Sharia Law.  It is my understanding that there is no Islamic country that is based entirely in Sharia Law.  There are, however, Muslims that believe that Sharia Law forbids the practice of any other religion or failure to practice Islam.  It is interesting that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a recognized and legal religion in Saudi Arabia while Catholicism and most Trinitarian based Christianity not.

I have not heard any news on the subject but I am sure that Christians and Jews in Afghanistan are at greater risk than any other demographic.   And I assume that Hindus, based on how they are treated in Pakistan, are not going to be treated well either.

Growing up I read the book, "The Ugly American" that was mostly about our political and military failures in Southeast Asia and how it lead to war.  The book was specific to the Korean war but many believe the same failures were at the foundation of the Vietnam war and the entire Cold War.   I may purchase the book again because I do not know what happened to my childhood copy.    I had not thought of this before - but what is currently going on may well be the foundation of conflict greater than any in the short history of our country.

 

The Traveler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

This was updated on the 27th of August 2021 I believe:

Nazarene Fund founder Glenn Beck announced that the charity has managed to airlift 5,100 Christians out of Taliban-controlled Afghanistan over the last week, using the more than $30 million in funds donated by Beck’s radio show listeners.

http://memoryholeblog.org/2021/08/31/glenn-becks-nazarene-fund-airlifts-5100-christians-from-afghanistan/

I just found out about Ross Perot getting his EDS workers out of Iran in 1979.   I knew I was having Saigon deja vu, but apparently I was having Iran deja vu too.

https://www.rossperot.com/life-story/iran-hostage-rescue

Quote

"We tried the government. No luck. We tried to work through the Iranian legal system. We even tried to pay bail, which was nothing more than a ransom," Mr. Perot told The Washington Post. "Everything failed. I was either going to lose the guys or try something...We took the risk because we felt it was wrong to leave two innocent men behind. It was that simple. It was the principle."
...
As the commando team was planning the prison break, a young Iranian EDS worker helped stoke a riot by anti-shah dissidents nearby. The mob, many firing rifles in the air, stormed the prison and freed the EDS executives along with thousands of other inmates.

Don't leave people behind.  "It was the principle."   Heh.

Edited by NeuroTypical
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's my completely unverified opinion that it would have been so much harder and longer for the Taliban to take over if they did not have a high degree of public support from the Afghan people. I think that the only way the Afghan government, and its military forces, and the forces of the US and a bunch of other countries could be defeated so quickly by an underfunded, ill-equipped, less well- trained, less well resourced group is if they did not have the support of the people. If that is true, and I don't know if it is, but if it is, it leads to the uncomfortable conclusion that the US and others were trying to impose their will on a country that was not willing to accept it. That sounds somewhat undemocratic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Today Fox news interviewed the so called leading diplomatic expert on Afghanistan.  He served as the expert under President Bush and all presidents since Bush.  He was the prime negotiator with the Taliban for the withdrawal under Trump - the negotiations Biden said he had to follow.  He has resigned from the Biden team indicating that Biden has not followed what was negotiated nor has Biden followed any reasonable advice.

Of course this is Fox News and I have never heard of this guy before.  But I do have a question - who advised Biden to withdraw the troupes before all Americans and other critical individuals were evacuated.  Biden states it was the majority opinions of the experts.  The military generals claim it was not them and now this Afghanistan native says it was not him.  Anyone know or anyone that has admitted that Biden took their advice?

According to this expert the Taliban offered to not take over Kabul or it airport or any of the surrounding area while or until the Americans and their allies left but Biden refused the offer.

 

The Traveler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a little mixed up from what I have heard.

Trump decided it was time to pull people out, so he pulled people out.  He made an agreement with the Taliban (objected to by the Afghan government, which after the deal was made basically had many of their top officials pull out because Trump's plan meant disaster for anyone who wasn't Taliban in their opinion, and those that were left, they started trying to barter their own deals with the Taliban because Trump's deal basically meant they would fall to the Taliban.  Their estimates put it around September or October...which were actually proven too long of a time with Biden as it occurred much faster than they even anticipated) in which he released 5000 prisoners to the Taliban (once again, over the objections of the Afghanistan government at the time, this increased the Taliban forces from 10-15K estimates to 20K estimates in less than a year), and drew down U.S. Troop force from 13K to 2.5K in less than a year.

The Draw down was opposed by everyone from  Generals to Military leaders, to Afghans, to...well...just about anyone who wasn't Donald Trump and his adminstration or those who worshipped him as a false idol.  Every military advice and advisor seemed to be against the plan.

Trump's deal had the US withdrawing even sooner than Biden did. 

This "Deal" done by Trump gave the US nothing except Taliban agreements NOT to attack any of the Afghan capitals, to attack Al-quaeda, and to cease hostilities toward the US.

Despite this, the hostilities in Afghanistan increased after this agreement.  Instead of calling the Taliban out on this, Donald Trump continued to scale down US troop presence in Afghanistan itself. 

At the end of 2020 Republican Leaders warn that what we are doing in Afghanistan is bad.  That it will create a Vietnam type withdrawal situation and that it will condemn our friends and allies in Afghanistan. 

By January, we are down to 2500 troops, we have removed over 10,000 Troops from Afghanistan under Trump  in less than a year, giving the Taliban the opportunity to solidify control of it's areas and start preparations to expand. 

And that finally brings us to Biden who is left without control of the outer areas of Afghanistan because he only has 2500 Troops left there and a time table that says they need to be out of there in 5 months.  The Taliban is blatantly NOT following the deal made by Trump and actually flagrantly flaunting it and showing that they actually intend on taking over Afghanistan upon the US's Departure.

So...what did Biden do?

He simply agreed with Trump for the most part except moving the timeline a little bit.  Other than that, he did as what Trump was already doing and agreed upon...though if Trump's timeline had been followed it would have been EVEN MORE HECTIC and the FALL EVEN FASTER.

This doesn't look good on Biden either though, as the result was just as the Military leaders, Afghan leaders, and others had already told Trump it would be if he went through with this even as the Taliban showed no signs of following the Trump "Deal." (or at least portions of it, they never agreed NOT to take over Afghanistan, just not to attack the major cities)

Neither he  nor Trump actually kept the Taliban to keep their end of the Deal.  The both ignored the Taliban's obvious actions that showed their intention to take over Afghanistan and press forward on their own initiatives.  The only aim I think was to make an excuse of why they could get US troops out of Afghanistan, whether that excuse was valid or not. 

A remarkably balanced article on it (I actually like other articles more, but decided to post a first one that took a view that was probably more acceptable to more conservative voices here)...

NYTimes Trump, Taliban, Biden, Afghanistan

Quote

“There was an alternative that could have prevented further erosion and likely enabled us to roll back some of the Taliban gains in recent years,” said Gen. David H. Petraeus, the retired commander of American forces in Afghanistan and former C.I.A. director who argued the mission was making progress while serving alongside Mr. Biden under President Barack Obama.

“With the Afghans doing the fighting on the front lines and the U.S. providing assistance from the air,” he added, “such a force posture would have been quite sustainable in terms of the expenditure of blood and treasure.”

Quote

Following the deal, Mr. Trump reduced American forces in Afghanistan to 4,500 from 13,000. Eager to be the president to end the war, he signed a memo to the Pentagon instructing it to pull out all remaining forces by Jan. 15 before leaving office, but was talked out of it by advisers. Instead, he ordered the force drawn down to 2,500 troops in his final days, although about 3,500 actually remained.

For Mr. Biden, inheriting such a small force in Afghanistan meant that commanders were already left with too few troops to respond to a renewed Taliban offensive against American forces, which he deemed certain to come if he jettisoned Mr. Trump’s agreement, requiring him to send thousands more troops back in, officials said.

However, this narrative has recently been changed.  An Advisor to Trump has stated something else (despite ALL evidence showing that Trump wasn't just trying, he was actively pushing for a MUCH earlier pullout BEFORE the end of his presidency...)...

Trump's Final SecDef says pullout a ruse

Quote

President Donald Trump’s top national security officials never intended to pull all U.S. troops out of Afghanistan, according to new statements by Chris Miller, Trump’s last acting defense secretary. 

Miller said the president’s public promise to finish withdrawing U.S. forces by May 1, as negotiated with the Taliban, was actually a “play” that masked the Trump administration’s true intentions: to convince Afghan President Ashraf Ghani to quit or accept a bitter power-sharing agreement with the Taliban, and to keep some U.S. troops in Afghanistan for counterrorism missions.

I'd imagine this is the guy that Fox News is interviewing?

Quote

That plan never happened, in part because Trump lost his reelection bid in November. And at least one other former senior Trump administration official questioned Miller’s retelling. But in revealing it, Miller challenged recent assertions that Trump is to blame for setting up this week’s chaotic scenes unfolding across Kabul. Miller alleged that despite Trump’s frequent public pledges to end the Afghanistan war and bring home all U.S. troops, many senior national security officials in his administration believed a total withdrawal was not inevitable. 

I tend to think they are trying to rewrite what actually happened, but Chris Miller IS saying this.  He is probably the one you are referring to.

An overall picture of the withdrawal...

Taliban Politics in Afghanistan - timeline of US withdrawal

 

MY thoughts are that both are to blame on this to a degree.  Trump for drawing down and Biden for deciding to continue with it.  Even with 2500 troops, he could have stealthily ramped up several thousand more very quickly if he so desired and prepped for an Taliban attack if they wanted to keep Afghanistan stable.  On the otherhand, I don't feel we were making much progress in Afghanistan at this point, so in truth there was no reason to really remain there.  We should have pulled out after our initial goals were met (kill Bin Ladin for one). 

In that, both Trump and Biden accomplished what they should for the most part, get US involvement away from  Afghanistan with a minimum of casualties, letting the Afghans resolve their own matters again.  Though the Taliban has attacked the capitals and taken over many, and violence increased, from what I can tell they did also increase action against Al Quaida and other groups in Afghanistan and for the most part tried to control the violence against US troops and members (though the attack that did occur at the airport occurred, I think it was from another group outside of the Taliban's control who they actually were fighting at the time).

I'd put either the blame or the rewards on both of them, as both had a part they played in the Afghanistan withdrawal.

Edited by JohnsonJones
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...
48 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I am not aware of anyone (US citizen or otherwise) being officially turned over to USA authority for removal from Afghanistan as promised by Biden????   Is anything officially happening?

 

The Traveler

Officially?  Not that I know of.  I have several friends there with a private company, though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share