The Deaf culture phenomenon - insights?

[Fether]

I want to preface this with stating I’m extremely ignorant on this topic and there may be things I’m missing in the argument. And I come from a pro-cochlear implant stance without any understanding as to why it would be wise to refuse a cochlear implant to a child. I’m going to speak my mind, so if someone is offended, I apologize.

I’m only somewhat familiar with the deaf culture. I took two years of ASL in school and met one ASL family on my mission and spoke to someone who was studying to be an interpreter for the ASL. But like all cultures, they are very tight knit and are very concerned about things that may harm their culture. They even differentiate between being deaf and being Deaf (capital D). One is a condition, the other is an identity.

I remember in ASL class, we had a discussion about cochlear implants. My teacher tried to stay neutral on the topic, but he was visibly disturbed by it and we was unknowingly breathing heavily and making more aggressive sounds as he spoke on the topic. He Was clearly against the idea of giving deaf children the closest thing to a cure to their deafness.

Since then, I have periodically looked up articles on it just to see how the community views it. To this day, many are against cochlear implants for the reason that it harms the culture they have developed.

What is most interesting here is the fact that, from what I can tell at least, there are no other people that have formed a such a strong identity and culture behind their disability. Offer prosthetics to a man without legs and he accepts immediately . Offer to give even partial eyesight to a blind newborn and it is accepted with open arms and tears by all. Offer to provide full and complete hearing a deaf baby and you trigger a controversial discussion. On genocide, child abuse, and culture war.

Why does this happen? Is it not obvious that a partially hearing person is better off than and deaf person? Has this same mentality been the culprit behind the forming of other sub-cultures?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/time.com/76154/deaf-culture-cochlear-implants/%3famp=true

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.insider.com/why-deaf-people-turn-down-cochlear-implants-2016-12%3famp

Edited August 20, 2021 by Fether

[Vort]

Any worthwhile culture cannot be harmed by the gift of heightened senses. If being able to hear really and truly destroys Deaf culture, then Deaf culture is not worthwhile. (Which I don't believe, but obviously many who embrace Deaf culture do.)

If my opinion on this matter offends you, then I am honestly sorry you are so benighted in your heart and soul as to be offended. I hope you overcome your offense.  But I am not sorry in the least for having and expressing the above opinion. 

Edited August 20, 2021 by Vort

[Jane_Doe]

<I'm not deaf, but I am basically familiar with deaf culture, having attended a deaf ward for 18 months specifically to study ASL and deaf culture.   And I happen to think deaf culture completely rocks.>

To best explain this, a parallel example is helpful:  I'm not a neurotypical person.  Officially, I'm high functioning autistic.  I see the world in logic and equations, and have a powerful ability to break down any problem -- I invented my own version of calculus at age 12 because it was useful and obvious to me.  On the flip side: there's a lot of "normal" social nuances that are baffling to me: fashion, social cues, correct level of delicateness, etc.  Naturally, I make "weird" gestures, I can talk "strange", and be "too blunt".  

Growing up, my mom approached this a problem to be "cured": according to her, I had a "disability" and needed to learn to "act normal".  .... and honestly that approach was hugely damaging to our relationship and my self esteem.  I am not broken: I am me.  I am a daughter of God.  Yes, the way I AM.  To quote Elder Holland "there is nothing wrong with singing in your own voice".  

My daughter is now very similar to me: at age 4 she was doing 100 piece puzzles, age 6 starting multiplication, etc.  She is clueless about fashion.  And that's ok: she is beautiful.  And if anybody tries to "fix her disability" I'm going to go Rage Mama Tiger at that idiot.  

 

 

 

Likewise, a deaf child is beautiful.  Yes, she/he is different than a standard hearing kid, but still beautiful.  Deafness often brings a great eye for beauty, a composite nature, a deep awareness of how others are feeling, etc.    A deaf person is are not "broken" and don't need "fixed".  And cochlear implant hearing is not true hearing either.  And there can be a lot of resentment if  somebody approaches them or their kids that way.  

Edited August 20, 2021 by Jane_Doe

[Traveler]

26 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

<I'm not deaf, but I am basically familiar with deaf culture, having attended a deaf ward for 18 months specifically to study ASL and deaf culture.   And I happen to think deaf culture completely rocks.>

To best explain this, a parallel example is helpful:  I'm not a neurotypical person.  Officially, I'm high functioning autistic.  I see the world in logic and equations, and have a powerful ability to break down any problem -- I invented my own version of calculus at age 12 because it was useful and obvious to me.  On the flip side: there's a lot of "normal" social nuances that are baffling to me: fashion, social cues, correct level of delicateness, etc.  Naturally, I make "weird" gestures, I can talk "strange", and be "too blunt".  

Growing up, my mom approached this a problem to be "cured": according to her, I had a "disability" and needed to learn to "act normal".  .... and honestly that approach was hugely damaging to our relationship and my self esteem.  I am not broken: I am me.  I am a daughter of God.  Yes, the way I AM.  To quote Elder Holland "there is nothing wrong with singing in your own voice".  

My daughter is now very similar to me: at age 4 she was doing 100 piece puzzles, age 6 starting multiplication, etc.  She is clueless about fashion.  And that's ok: she is beautiful.  And if anybody tries to "fix her disability" I'm going to go Rage Mama Tiger at that idiot.  

 

 

 

Likewise, a deaf child is beautiful.  Yes, she/he is different than a standard hearing kid, but still beautiful.  Deafness often brings a great eye for beauty, a composite nature, a deep awareness of how others are feeling, etc.    A deaf person is are not "broken" and don't need "fixed".  And cochlear implant hearing is not true hearing either.  And there can be a lot of resentment if  somebody approaches them or their kids that way.  

Moroni talks about spiritual gifts.  Generally it is my impression that we should desire all spiritual gifts.  I am dyslectic and as such have discovered that I have certain advantages.  I have two brothers that are color blind.  The reality is that they are not really color blind but rather see different colors.  This means that while they were in the army they could see camouflage.   It turns out that about 27% of males are red green color blind to some degree.  So why are traffic lights red and green?

There are similar problems with being left handed.  For example screwdrivers favor right handed individuals.

I have often pondered what will happen with the resurrection and the concept of being restored to a "prefect frame"?  The strange reality is that our brains are wired differently according to our "handicaps".  I am quite certain that it would be a mistake to insist on being resurrected without a "perfect frame".  And yet I am not sure I understand what a "perfect frame" is.  But I think I want one or rather I ought to say - I desire to be a master of one.  I am quite sure that G-d (both the Father and the Son) are masters of a perfect frame.

 

The Traveler

Edited August 20, 2021 by Traveler

[Fether]

7 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Likewise, a deaf child is beautiful.  Yes, she/he is different than a standard hearing kid, but still beautiful.  Deafness often brings a great eye for beauty, a composite nature, a deep awareness of how others are feeling, etc.    A deaf person is are not "broken" and don't need "fixed".  And cochlear implant hearing is not true hearing either.  And there can be a lot of resentment if  somebody approaches them or their kids that way.  

But I can’t help but feel the Deaf would still feel hurt if we did have a way to completely  eradicate deafness. Would you disagree?

These benefits you mention are not unattainable for the hearing. Additionally, the benefits they miss out on are astounding. Music, basic communication skills with the rest of the world, an added level of safety and awareness, and I’m sure much much more. 
 

Frankly, I don’t see any value in being deaf. I simply do not understand why anyone who has experienced hearing would chose to be deaf. 
 

To which the natural response is “it’s because your hearing that you don’t understand”. To which I bite back, “it’s because they are ignorant that they are against healing the deaf”. they are gripping tight to this community that is built on a weakness that they, seemingly, would refuse a fix or overcome. Even to the point of wanting to deny newborns of the ability to hear at least a little, let alone completely.

I would have to see statistics to believe that any majority of deaf born children regret the cochlear implants at any point in their life. And if they do, I imagine it has more to do with being associated with the Deaf community and being around the anti-cochlear implant idea.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Fether

[estradling75]

I am hearing impaired... been so for as long as I can remember.. I am not a part of Deaf culture but I am some what adjacent.

While questions where asked about Deaf culture and its response to Implants... But it is just a subset of how people embrace Culture Identities and embrace them as personal identities.

Case in point there is a LDS culture, many have embraced this as a personal identity (aka 'I am LDS').  So what happens when a persons sense of self is attacked?  Generally the same kind of response to a physical attack.  Heightened emotional state, lashing out (Verbally/physically), and trying to destroy/remove/defeat the attacker.  We occasional see this here when an Antis comes calling.  Some (not all) respond just like this.

This is not an LDS thing but a Identity thing.  We saw this when we tried baptize for the dead some Jews.  We saw it as harmless to beneficial but they saw it as an attack on their fundamental identity.  In their minds we were making them not Jews any more so they protested it strongly.

Now people have made the comparison to amputees.  But that does not match well enough because amputees generally do not identify as amputees.  They generally identify as abled people with problem/medical condition/disability.  So they naturally see fixes as a good thing.

The deaf community has lots of people in it, not all have embraced deaf culture as their personal identity.  Those are the ones generally accepting of help and assistance with hearing loss.  (They see themselves as hearing but with problem)But you also have those that were born and raised in that culture.  That is what they know, that is the way things are, that is who they are.  That is their identity.  (They see themselves as whole and complete just the way they are.  [And you might disagree with that... but you do not get a vote on it]) As a general rule you do not convince someone to make major changes in their sense of self, and the way they live by basically calling them stupid, or short sighted (Aka an attack even if you do not see it that way yourself)  

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

But I can’t help but feel the Deaf would still feel hurt if we did have a way to completely  eradicate deafness. Would you disagree?

These benefits you mention are not unattainable for the hearing. Additionally, the benefits they miss out on are astounding. Music, basic communication skills with the rest of the world, an added level of safety and awareness, and I’m sure much much more. 
 

Frankly, I don’t see any value in being deaf. I simply do not understand why anyone who has experienced hearing would chose to be deaf. 
 

To which the natural response is “it’s because your hearing that you don’t understand”. To which I bite back, “it’s because they are ignorant that they are against healing the deaf”. they are gripping tight to this community that is built on a weakness that they, seemingly, would refuse a fix or overcome. Even to the point of wanting to deny newborns of the ability to hear at least a little, let alone completely.

I would have to see statistics to believe that any majority of deaf born children regret the cochlear implants at any point in their life. And if they do, I imagine it has more to do with being associated with the Deaf community and being around the anti-cochlear implant idea.

You're still approaching tings from the perspective of "a deaf person is disabled and less able to communicate".

Would you likewise try to "cure" me of being autistic?  Or Traveler's brothers for being color-blind?  Or a left-handed person such as myself?  Do you likewise see these as ailments that need to be fixed and you don't understand why anyone in those boats won't jump at the chance to be "normal"?

[estradling75]

11 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

You're still approaching tings from the perspective of "a deaf person is disabled and less able to communicate".

Kind of like how an atheist might think a person of faith has a mental illness... and can't understand why they do not want to be cured through logic and reason... But surprise surprise the person of faith does not see faith as 'problem' to be cured

[NeuroTypical]

17 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

You're still approaching tings from the perspective of "a deaf person is disabled and less able to communicate".

Would you likewise try to "cure" me of being autistic?  Or Traveler's brothers for being color-blind?  Or a left-handed person such as myself?  Do you likewise see these as ailments that need to be fixed and you don't understand why anyone in those boats won't jump at the chance to be "normal"?

I think Jane_Doe is at the heart of the matter.  Giving hearing to a deaf person is more than adding a sense - it is a core alteration to their very existence. It changes who they are.  I sit here with my totally accurate screen name and think "yeah, but being able to hear is better", but I have to understand that many in the deaf community don't see it that way. 

Similarly, I think of someone close to me with PTSD, major depression, and an entire childhood full of horrible trauma which she was forced to survive and grow from.  When she thinks about a hypothetical where she could have avoided all those traumas, she wouldn't say yes.  Removing her past traumas would have resulted in her growing into a totally different adult.  She would have never have developed the wisdom she has, or the toughness she has.  She never would have been as useful to others going through similar traumas.  There are lives she could not have saved, testimonies she could not have saved.  There would be 5 minute hallway conversations, where some troubled soul went away with lightened burdens and a whole new positive outlook on the world, that would never have happened.  She likes who she is, and would not trade it for the world.  The prospect of being innocently ignorant to the evils of the world, is horrifying to her - she dislikes clueless people.

At the same time, I've encountered a dozen videos of adults and children, trying on glasses that let them see colors for the first time, or actually see for the first time.  I've seen videos of kids and adults get their hearing turned on for the first time in their lives, and hearing their mom's or husband's voice for the first time.  The absolute wonder and joy in those videos is something I may not ever experience in this life.  

At the end of the day, if someone wants an implant, I'm not going to stand in their way.  And if someone refuses one, I'm not going to judge.  Seems like a choice people have to make for themselves.

 

[Traveler]

21 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

You're still approaching tings from the perspective of "a deaf person is disabled and less able to communicate".

Would you likewise try to "cure" me of being autistic?  Or Traveler's brothers for being color-blind?  Or a left-handed person such as myself?  Do you likewise see these as ailments that need to be fixed and you don't understand why anyone in those boats won't jump at the chance to be "normal"?

I believe that there are two ways to approach life and if you do not mind - I will try a little symbolism.  Way one is to take the cards you are dealt and play the "game" as best you can, taking advantage and every opportunity you can with a determination to "win" or get the best results you can.  The other attitude is to look at your cards and think you have already lost and have no chance to "win" the jackpot and so you play the game with an attitude of woe is me for being dealt crappy cards - I will lose regardless of how I play this hand.

The Traveler

[dprh]

My son lost about 50% hearing in his right ear when he was six. Honestly we do see it as something that we should try to fix as much as possible.  He now wears a hearing aid.  We've been part of a community of parents with hearing-impaired and/or deaf children, and for the most part they are all doing whatever they can to help their children hear as much as possible.  They are a great group with a lot of resources.  

I think not having one of the senses means a person is less-able than the typical person, disabled.  It is different to me than being color-blind or autistic where something works differently, not diminished or altogether gone.

 

[Jane_Doe]

3 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I think Jane_Doe is at the heart of the matter.  Giving hearing to a deaf person is more than adding a sense - it is a core alteration to their very existence. It changes who they are.  I sit here with my totally accurate screen name and think "yeah, but being able to hear is better", but I have to understand that many in the deaf community don't see it that way. 

Similarly, I think of someone close to me with PTSD, major depression, and an entire childhood full of horrible trauma which she was forced to survive and grow from.  When she thinks about a hypothetical where she could have avoided all those traumas, she wouldn't say yes.  Removing her past traumas would have resulted in her growing into a totally different adult.  She would have never have developed the wisdom she has, or the toughness she has.  She never would have been as useful to others going through similar traumas.  There are lives she could not have saved, testimonies she could not have saved.  There would be 5 minute hallway conversations, where some troubled soul went away with lightened burdens and a whole new positive outlook on the world, that would never have happened.  She likes who she is, and would not trade it for the world.  The prospect of being innocently ignorant to the evils of the world, is horrifying to her - she dislikes clueless people.

At the same time, I've encountered a dozen videos of adults and children, trying on glasses that let them see colors for the first time, or actually see for the first time.  I've seen videos of kids and adults get their hearing turned on for the first time in their lives, and hearing their mom's or husband's voice for the first time.  The absolute wonder and joy in those videos is something I may not ever experience in this life.  

At the end of the day, if someone wants an implant, I'm not going to stand in their way.  And if someone refuses one, I'm not going to judge.  Seems like a choice people have to make for themselves.

 

And @NeuroTypical lands a 300% bullseye into the heart of the matter!  Amazingly well said.  

[Traveler]

Just a note.  I came from a high achieving family.  My oldest brother has a photographic memory and is a certified genus.  My next oldest brother is an incredible person that just is determined with everything he does.  My father came form relatively nothing and became very wealthy and respected - my mother came from wealth but was taught to work hard and achieve.  I was somewhat of a disappointment because many of the things I attempted literally blew up (one of my goals as a youth was to launch something into space).

I have always felt that my greatest disadvantage in life is that I have no excuses.  What ever I have done - I have come to realize that I could have done much better.  My short comings are basically because of my efforts or rather lack of efforts.  For example - I love music and once had an opportunity to sign a recording contract - but I did not want to live the life style of a professional - working mostly on weekends and nights.  To be honest I cannot understand that a deaf person is not interested in what they are missing in the universe of musical possibilities.  I enjoy the wonder of all my senses - including the spiritual senses.  Perhaps there is an exception with emotional senses which seem to cause more problem than solutions - with everybody that becomes attached to emotions ( I could give scriptural advice concerning emotions and desires that are uncontrolled).

Perhaps my biggest problem is thinking that everybody ought to think or understand as I do.  Lucky for me I married a Lady that sees the entire universe different than me and has turned out much better than me - and yet she still loves me.  All I can do is try to make it up to her for all the times I could have done better but didn't.

 

The Traveler

[LDSGator]

2 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Lucky for me I married a Lady that sees the entire universe different than me

I am convinced that having people in your life that think differently than you is a vastly underrated blessing. Among many other benefits, it reminds you that people can think differently than you and still be wonderful people. 

[Backroads]

In many ways I'm fascinated by the Deaf culture.

On one hand, it seems as legitimate a community as any other. I supppose I see it as, you're deaf, that's your life, why not enjoy it? 

On the other, I am weirded out by any disapproval of anyone seeking out a different culture. Obviously I don't think anyone would say hearing is bad. While I get the annoyance or even pain of someone just not wanting to be part of your culture, the argument that Deafness is perfectly legitimate would seem to also justify the argument that being able to hear is just as legitimate. 

[Fether]

54 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

You're still approaching tings from the perspective of "a deaf person is disabled and less able to communicate".

Is this not the case? Are you saying that a deaf person can function in society just as well as a hearing person without any hinderance?

54 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Would you likewise try to "cure" me of being autistic?

If you were happy the way you are, no. But to refusing to correct a correctable disability in a child seems more akin to child abuse than correcting the disability.

 

1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

Or Traveler's brothers for being color-blind?

Adults: if they do wished

newborns: absolutely

1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

Or a left-handed person such as myself?

Nope

 

1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

Do you likewise see these as ailments that need to be fixed and you don't understand why anyone in those boats won't jump at the chance to be "normal"?

These are all completely different and cannot all be compared as if they were one on the same. I’m not talking about normalizing, I’m talking about enhancing someone who is born disabled.

[Fether]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

I think Jane_Doe is at the heart of the matter.  Giving hearing to a deaf person is more than adding a sense - it is a core alteration to their very existence. It changes who they are.  I sit here with my totally accurate screen name and think "yeah, but being able to hear is better", but I have to understand that many in the deaf community don't see it that way. 

Similarly, I think of someone close to me with PTSD, major depression, and an entire childhood full of horrible trauma which she was forced to survive and grow from.  When she thinks about a hypothetical where she could have avoided all those traumas, she wouldn't say yes.  Removing her past traumas would have resulted in her growing into a totally different adult.  She would have never have developed the wisdom she has, or the toughness she has.  She never would have been as useful to others going through similar traumas.  There are lives she could not have saved, testimonies she could not have saved.  There would be 5 minute hallway conversations, where some troubled soul went away with lightened burdens and a whole new positive outlook on the world, that would never have happened.  She likes who she is, and would not trade it for the world.  The prospect of being innocently ignorant to the evils of the world, is horrifying to her - she dislikes clueless people.

At the same time, I've encountered a dozen videos of adults and children, trying on glasses that let them see colors for the first time, or actually see for the first time.  I've seen videos of kids and adults get their hearing turned on for the first time in their lives, and hearing their mom's or husband's voice for the first time.  The absolute wonder and joy in those videos is something I may not ever experience in this life.  

At the end of the day, if someone wants an implant, I'm not going to stand in their way.  And if someone refuses one, I'm not going to judge.  Seems like a choice people have to make for themselves.

 

@Jane_Doe
Then the big question is about the argument behind cochlear implants to new borns. I have no qualms with adults refusing it. But there is a large portion of the Deaf community that is against this corrective implant on a newborn.
 

now to address your other comment:

I understand experience makes us stronger, and personal experience brings us to where we are today. But If you knew a child was going to be sexually assaulted and abused in a home, you would not let them go to that home in the logic of “this will give them experience”.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Fether

[Fether]

22 minutes ago, Backroads said:

hand, it seems as legitimate a community as any other. I supppose I see it as, you're deaf, that's your life, why not enjoy it? 

The Deaf community is great. I have been around quite a few and been able to speak to them. Wonderful people.

[Fether]

2 hours ago, estradling75 said:

While questions where asked about Deaf culture and its response to Implants... But it is just a subset of how people embrace Culture Identities and embrace them as personal identities.

 Case in point there is a LDS culture, many have embraced this as a personal identity (aka 'I am LDS').  So what happens when a persons sense of self is attacked?  Generally the same kind of response to a physical attack.  Heightened emotional state, lashing out (Verbally/physically), and trying to destroy/remove/defeat the attacker.  We occasional see this here when an Antis comes calling.  Some (not all) respond just like this.

This is not an LDS thing but a Identity thing.  We saw this when we tried baptize for the dead some Jews.  We saw it as harmless to beneficial but they saw it as an attack on their fundamental identity.  In their minds we were making them not Jews any more so they protested it strongly.

 

The this is a great comparison. If there is something about the “Latter-day Saint culture” that makes it more difficult for us to thrive spiritually, we ought to fix it. Same thing with our ability. If we can fix a disability at birth so that a person can live a more full life, we ought to do it. I understand adults may have a very different experience, but in children, fix it 100% if the time.

[Fether]

2 hours ago, estradling75 said:

As a general rule you do not convince someone to make major changes in their sense of self, and the way they live by basically calling them stupid, or short sighted (Aka an attack even if you do not see it that way yourself)  

Its a good thing I never said that then. I’m more concerned about the newborn situation

Edited August 20, 2021 by Fether

[Fether]

Side note:

this is what is believe the resurrection looks like for different abnormalities-

deaf: will hear

blind: will see

left/right handed people: ambidextrous

autistic: mind will be enlightened and expanded and any abnormalities will be removed

Non-autistic: mind will be enlightened and expanded and any abnormalities will be removed

Homosexual: made heterosexual

color blind: see correctly

[estradling75]

7 minutes ago, Fether said:

The this is a great comparison. If there is something about the “Latter-day Saint culture” that makes it more difficult for us to thrive spiritually, we ought to fix it. Same thing with our ability. If we can fix a disability at birth so that a person can live a more full life, we ought to do it. I understand adults may have a very different experience, but in children, fix it 100% if the time.

Right but who decides that we are thriving spiritually?  Us?  Absolutely!  Our Parents when we are young?  Absolutely!   Some stranger? No way!

Adults get the choice... For children their parent/guardian get the choice... that is how it should work for everything... implants are no exception.

 

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by estradling75

[Fether]

6 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Right but who decides that we are thriving spiritually?  Us?  Absolutely!  Our Parent when we are young?  Absolutely!   Some stranger? No way!

Adults get the choice... For children their parent/guardian get the choice... that is how it should work for everything... implants are no exception.

 

 

It’s a good thing I never suggested strangers should have a say. That would be ridiculous.

You are 100% correct in all you just said. I just can’t help to think you are saying this on the premise that being deaf is not a disability, but rather a personal choice that has little affect on our experience in life.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Fether

[estradling75]

2 minutes ago, Fether said:

It’s a good thing I never suggested strangers should have a say. That would be ridiculous.

You are 100% correct in all you just said. I just can’t help to think you are saying this on the premise that being deaf is not a disability, but rather a personal choice that has little affect on our experience in life.

If that is what you think... then you need to read more closely what I am writing.

Life is full of trials... disabilities are just one variation of that... This moral existence is not about making our trials go away... but rather about enduring them and learning from them.  @NeuroTypical  's wife is one example of a person that would not trade their trials and experiences from said trials for anything.  Yet you seem to think a Deaf person can't/shouldn't feel that way about their Deafness. 

Now spin that to a Deaf parent of a Deaf child...  They will not see their child's disability/trial as a big deal.  They have much personal experience on how to live a happy and fulfilled life as a Deaf person which they can use as teach their child... and when the child is old enough to make up their own mind they can.   

[Vort]

2 hours ago, estradling75 said:

Right but who decides that we are thriving spiritually?  Us?  Absolutely!  Our Parents when we are young?  Absolutely!   Some stranger? No way!

Adults get the choice... For children their parent/guardian get the choice... that is how it should work for everything... implants are no exception.

Do you feel the same about insulin for diabetics? What you say sounds reasonable in the abstract, but quickly falls apart on closer examination in real conditions. Larger culture and its people, aka "strangers", determine a very great deal of what we consider acceptable.

2 hours ago, estradling75 said:

Life is full of trials... disabilities are just one variation of that... This moral existence is not about making our trials go away... but rather about enduring them and learning from them.  @NeuroTypical  's wife is one example of a person that would not trade their trials and experiences from said trials for anything.  Yet you seem to think a Deaf person can't/shouldn't feel that way about their Deafness.

I didn't get that from what Fether wrote. I suspect you may be imputing meanings to his words that he didn't say or intend.

Quote

Now spin that to a Deaf parent of a Deaf child...  They will not see their child's disability/trial as a big deal.  They have much personal experience on how to live a happy and fulfilled life as a Deaf person which they can use as teach their child... and when the child is old enough to make up their own mind they can.   

And again, what if they're diabetic? Who are you to mandate insulin? That's the parents' decision!

This is not an easy or obvious area. I don't claim to have all the answers. But what is indisputable is that there is a window in early childhood during which the brain develops its linguistic abilities, both oral and aural. The two are intertwined and really two aspects of the same underlying principle. If the child misses that window, then he will never develop those capacities. Saying that he can make that choice as an adult is bogus; the choice is long past his ability to make.

So by what logic or right does a big-D Deaf parent have the moral imperative to choose a lifetime of non-linguistic ability for his baby? The argument in favor of that proposition doesn't seem very strong to me. Parental choice is fine, but in this case it seems the parents lose nothing—NOTHING—by allowing the child a normal linguistic development. The child can still participate in their precious Deaf culture. He can be reared in that culture and taught to value it.

Unless the very fact that the child can hear and interpret audible tokens of meaning destroys the integrity of Deaf culture. But as I said at the beginning, if that is the case, then Deaf culture can have nothing of lasting value.

Imagine God standing before a blind man and telling him, "My son, I will give you the gift of sight, and I will also give you the ability to perceive and understand what you are seeing just as if you had been sighted from birth. All you need to is ask me." Imagine the blind man responding, "Look, God, I have all this great culture I've developed because of my blindness. If I were sighted, that would completely destroy all the wonderfulness of my Blind culture. So I don't see your supposed 'blessing' as anything of the sort. Thanks, I guess, but no thanks. I embrace and celebrate my Blindness! It's not a handicap, it's a differently-abled-ness!" Would you not think that blind man foolish? But the choice is given him, and he can reject the proffered gift and choose blindness if he wants.

Now imagine God standing before the blind man and offering him the same choice for the blind man's blind son.

The blind man can choose blindness for himself. That's legitimate, no matter how foolish it may appear. But is it really acceptable that the blind man can choose blindness for his infant son?

This issue is not primarily a matter of insensitivity to the deaf (or Deaf) community.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Vort