Religious Exemption


mikbone
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Where do we stand on this topic concerning the COVID-19 vaccine exemption?

Personal Revelation?  

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13 We believe in being honest

The California Government and businesses are allowing some medical and religious exemptions.  But they are cracking down.  

I know that Scientologists get a religious pass without question, but I’m unclear on other religions.

My employer has its legal crews working on a document.  It may require endorsement by local authority e.g. Bishop.

 

Asking for a friend.

Edited by mikbone
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Well, on the topic of obeying laws, the constitutional scholars I've heard from say something along these lines:

- Private property owners (including businesses and churches and some hospitals and private schools) have the right to control who enters their property - so they can do a "prove vaccination status to enter" thing as much as they want to. 

- State and local governments (including other hospitals and public schools) can probably do it too.  Either through their legislative bodies, or through public health orders if their constitutions and charters and whatnot allow for such things.

- The federal government probably can't mandate a vaccine.  Maybe not even when they want to rely on the interstate commerce clause.  However, thinking Obamacare: It moved through the supreme court with a result of "no, the govt. can't force you to have health insurance, but they can tax you if you don't have it".  So the feds may be able to try something similar with a vaccine - prove vaccination, or pay an "unvax tax".  

 

As far as practical reality goes, I'm collecting numerous stories of principled vaccine-hesitant folks, who finally just bite the bullet and get the shot.  Someone on this board noticed the concert they had already bought tickets for, was requiring proof of vaccination.  A buddy was tired of his fiance bringing it up.  Others are just sick of having to fill out daily forms to go to work.  @mikbone, if you finally buckle under the pressure, I promise I will not think differently of you. :)

 

Full disclosure - for my kids' entire school career, whenever some school admin or teacher asked us for proof of shots, we'd always take the religious exemption.  It's not because we didn't get our kids all their shots, we did.  I just didn't want to fill out any stupid forms or give the schools any information I didn't have to. 

Edited by NeuroTypical
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I can understand Latter-day Saints saying they have a conscience-based objection to the vaccine.

Given President Nelson’s statements, I don’t think a Latter-day Saint has a strong grounds for claiming a religious-based objection to the vaccine.  The best we can do in that vein is a broad “my religious notions of ‘personal revelation’ mean I get to do whatever the heck I want” type of argument.  It’s a cute argument, to be sure; and the law and the courts, in the short term, may play along with that kind of bootstrapping.  But over the longer haul our increasingly secular society and the politicians they will continue to elect will see this as an example of why “religious liberty” is basically a pretext for people becoming a law unto themselves, and will use it to crack down on tolerance of honest-to-gosh religious-based differences.

IMHO, conservative Christians will find themselves better-protected in the long term if they reserve their religious-liberty exemptions for cases that are truly a matter of religious liberty.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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My mother-in-law works as a registrar at a middle school.  She's had members of the church claim the religious exemption for their children.  In her job, she accepts it, documents it, and moves on (usually with an 🙄).  

If you need a leader's signature, that's a different story.  I'm sure there are some bishops who'd be happy to sign that and others that never would.

 

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My personal take on religious exemption.

We cannot know what a person's individual religious beliefs may be.  Just because they attend a particular church does not mean they adhere to every single belief of that Church.  A Church's stated beliefs may not necessarily reflect what one's actual personal beliefs are.

In that light, a religious exemption should extend to any who's personal beliefs exempt them from it. 

For example, perhaps their is a member of the Catholic Church that is avowedly against Blood Transfusions.  They deeply believe that Blood Transfusions are wrong from a religious and faith based viewpoint.  Their position does not necessarily align with that of their Church's policy. 

Another example would be when I was in the military many years ago.  At that time we had Conscientious objectors.  I was not one, but from what I recall it was not necessary to base it off of whatever religion you participated in.  Instead, it was more of whether you had a deeply rooted religious belief that war and what it was related to, or bearing arms, was wrong.  In that instance you could be given objector status. 

I think such exemptions could be given via the religious factor, but it would need to be due to one's religious beliefs rather than their fears of something.  I think some states have taken this stance where one merely needs to declare their religious beliefs and how it applies to such a situation rather than base it off of whatever a religion's official stance is.

On a more humorous note, also relating to the military.  When I went in (due to a national conflict in another nation, many came in with me) I don't think those of us who went through the normal process (aka, we had no objections except we didn't want to actually be there for many of us) had much of a choice of what vaccines to get or not, they just put us in a line and jabbed us and then sent us on our way.  No asking, no questions, just go do as we were ordered.

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1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

.

IMHO, conservative Christians will find themselves better-protected in the long term if they reserve their religious-liberty exemptions for cases that are truly a matter of religious liberty.

Very true. It’s also nice to see Christians go to bat for Muslims/Jews when their religious liberty is in question. 

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2 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

IMHO, conservative Christians will find themselves better-protected in the long term if they reserve their religious-liberty exemptions for cases that are truly a matter of religious liberty.

IMHO we are already way past cases of religious liberty that matter.

Has anyone ever read this book?

mouse.jpg.a6922b33aeb8b10c3251a73fd560eb05.jpg

How about hearing this quote by John B Finch orator and prohibitionist

Quote

 

I go over there with these gentlemen and swing my arm and exercise the natural right which you have granted; I hit one man on the nose, another under the ear, and as I go down the stairs on my head, I cry out:

“Is not this a free country?”

“Yes, sir.”

“Have not I a right to swing my arm?”

“Yes, but your right to swing your arm leaves off where my right not to have my nose struck begins.”

 

We are going down a slippery slope at breakneck speeds.  Guys, I'm uncomfortable.

I understand that in the military you line up and get your shots no questions asked.  Are we ready to make the USA into a military state?

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15 minutes ago, mikbone said:

 

I understand that in the military you line up and get your shots no questions asked.  Are we ready to make the USA into a military state?

Who says we don't ask questions?   Kicking and screaming every year.   They leave room for my objections at the end of the brief now.   "Would you like a few words, Grunt?"

Edited by Grunt
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3 minutes ago, mikbone said:

IMHO we are already way past cases of religious liberty that matter.

Has anyone ever read this book?

mouse.jpg.a6922b33aeb8b10c3251a73fd560eb05.jpg

How about hearing this quote by John B Finch orator and prohibitionist

We are going down a slippery slope at breakneck speeds.  Guys, I'm uncomfortable.

I understand that in the military you line up and get your shots no questions asked.  Are we ready to make the USA into a military state?

Agreed.

I’m not saying it’s not a liberty/conscience violation.

I’m just saying that I don’t think we help the cause of Zion by telling the public that our religion prohibits us from doing something that multiple members of our highest leadership councils have very publicly and enthusiastically done.

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4 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Agreed.

I’m not saying it’s not a liberty/conscience violation.

I’m just saying that I don’t think we help the cause of Zion by telling the public that our religion prohibits us from doing something that multiple members of our highest leadership councils have very publicly and enthusiastically done.

I think it's more than not helping the cause.  It's pretty much going directly against what Church leaders have stated.

ETA:  I'm not saying everyone needs to run out and get vaccinated.   I'm saying the First Presidency has been pretty clear what the Church's position is.

Edited by Grunt
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FWIW, I’m not considering using the LDS Church as an excuse for not getting the vaccine.

I believe in being honest.

But then again, I have been investigating the Scientology Church from afar.  I love to watch TV specials with Leah Remini.  And I’m a fan of Tom Cruise movies.

 

Edited by mikbone
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I think a religious objection would be a tough case to make. For me personally I trust what the prophet has said on the matter but even going beyond that I think this may be one of those times where we need to render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, or which he thinks are his. If it ever came down to a mandate the example of the Church and polygamy might be instructive. When push came to shove the Lord was willing to have the Church submit to the powers that be in a non-salvation critical aspect of our beliefs in order to move the salvation critical work of the Church forward. Likewise, taking a vaccine that we may have serious doubts about might be worth avoiding the distractions and hindrances that could possibly be imposed upon us in order to more fully focus on the things that matter most. 

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I think there's a place where religious and philosophical exemptions blur together and it's hard to discern between the two. 

It seems clear enough that we can't say "Our church doesn't allow us to get vaccines" because... well, I'm sure you've heard. 

But as others have referred to, there's a case for how we practice our religion. 

I'm a happy pro-vaxxer and roll my eyes at most anti-vax sentiments, but I could see where while someone's church leadership has no issue with vaccines, that person's perspective and individual spiritual practice and views could come into play. 

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4 hours ago, dprh said:

My mother-in-law works as a registrar at a middle school.  She's had members of the church claim the religious exemption for their children.  In her job, she accepts it, documents it, and moves on (usually with an 🙄).  

If you need a leader's signature, that's a different story.  I'm sure there are some bishops who'd be happy to sign that and others that never would.

 

I'm not a registrar, but as a teacher I have so much access to student records. There's a number of church members who (in the past) loved to claim religious exemptions to vaccines. 

Same ones who complain about FDA but then would see a bottle of essential oils on my desk during parent-teacher conference and try to strike up a conversation about the miracle of alternate medicine where FDA doesn't tread...

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9 hours ago, mikbone said:

Where do we stand on this topic concerning the COVID-19 vaccine exemption?

Personal Revelation?  

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13 We believe in being honest

The California Government and businesses are allowing some medical and religious exemptions.  But they are cracking down.  

I know that Scientologists get a religious pass without question, but I’m unclear on other religions.

My employer has its legal crews working on a document.  It may require endorsement by local authority e.g. Bishop.

 

Asking for a friend.

If "we" is the Church, I do not think it provides any basis or precedent for medical exemptions.

If "we" is me or "us", I think religious exemptions in principle are fine, and typically involve a quid pro quo of sorts (serve the public in an alternative way) or some level of continued accountability on the subject of exemption to protect the innocent (e.g. children). Of course these can be overridden by the courts, hopefully in the spirit of checks and balances which the legislature and executive branches should ensure.

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On 8/24/2021 at 8:08 AM, mikbone said:

Where do we stand on this topic concerning the COVID-19 vaccine exemption?

Personal Revelation?  

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13 We believe in being honest

The California Government and businesses are allowing some medical and religious exemptions.  But they are cracking down.  

I know that Scientologists get a religious pass without question, but I’m unclear on other religions.

My employer has its legal crews working on a document.  It may require endorsement by local authority e.g. Bishop.

 

Asking for a friend.

I believe that the most important principle to G-d and a Latter-day Saint is the principle of agency.  I believe that those for mandates are part of that demographic that started the war in heaven over the principle of mandates rather than agency.

 

The Traveler

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28 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I believe that the most important principle to G-d and a Latter-day Saint is the principle of agency.  I believe that those for mandates are part of that demographic that started the war in heaven over the principle of mandates rather than agency.

 

The Traveler

You still have agency to ignore the mandates.  

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16 hours ago, dprh said:

You still have agency to ignore the mandates.  

We may have a difference of opinion about agency.  Many think that there is no difference between free will and agency.  I am of the opinion that if they were the same that revelation would have been about free will.  I am of the opinion that agency is a legal term specifically related to law and order.  Since a mandate is also related to law and order - I see the two as a legal conflict or contradiction of "order" within the law.  This would account for why those so involved were cast out from the "Kingdom" of G-d rather than punished (corrected) by the law and thus became agency's and a law to themselves.

Other than this contradiction; I agree we have our free will that can freely oppose the law and that opens what I think is a different can of worms.

 

The Traveler

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I've had both doses. 

In both instances, the reaction was so severe that I spent the entire next day basically sleeping on the couch because I was that exhausted, and had cold sweats, muscle fatigue, and even nose bleeds for a few days beyond that. 

I might have actually had Covid back at the end of February, and I bounced back from that faster than I did from the vaccines. I had low energy for a few days (but still enough to be marginally functional), I was unusually sensitive to how much salt was in my food, and my sour stomach was worse than normal, but I was able to soldier on. 

I'm not going for a third shot unless I absolutely have to, and even then I'll be registering a protest as I do. 

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