What if the Church’s Position on Homosexuality Changed?


clbent04
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13 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Thank you. I'm going to leave off the conversation anyhow though (after this post) primarily because I've said what I believe and think. I think I've even said it clearly (though who knows). Either way, I don't see much value in continuing to debate it back and forth.

But I'll restate for clarity one more time: I fully reject the concept that God cannot be taken at His word or that His words mean something other than what they mean -- unless He explicitly says otherwise in a timely manner.

I will add, since I now sense it was the root of your offense taken, that my used car salesman analogy was meant to convey an idea, not insult. I am trying to make the point that if God doesn't immediately and quickly clarify a word he uses that He's using to mean something entirely different than what that word actually means then it would be a dishonest. One of the most important ideas that we have of God is that he can be utterly, completely, and unreservedly trusted. The concept that his words might not mean what he said destroys that trust -- completely. It puts us all into a realm of having no idea what His doctrine and precepts actually are. It allows anyone at any time to put His commands or doctrine as suspect and questionable. Whereas I recognize that interpretation is always going to be a bit of a problem with understanding the meaning of any words, that's a good part of why we have living prophets. Of course many just cast off the living prophets too. Which is moderately justifiable if God has said a bunch of stuff to them as well that He meant something else entirely by. But as a general rule, if one is walking away from the words of God thinking, "Hmm....I wonder if that meant what it said...or the opposite? Hmm." it's a potentially serious problem. A problem that we're seeing a lot of in today's world. I don't agree with the philosophy.

That's my third expression of the same idea. If I haven't made it clear yet, I'm unlikely to. If anyone else agrees with me and wants to take up the discussion, great. Otherwise I'll let you have your final say and be done.

Thanks again for the acceptance of my clarification.

I keep pointing out something God did do...  You keep declaring 'God would never do that!!'  But you never offer an alternative explanation of what God was really doing in the example I reference.   Now I fully agree that God does not lie (Which was why the sales man link was and is horrible)  But God does reveal line upon line which means he does not tell us everything, and he doesn't usually jump in and correct our bad assumptions/understandings.  But rather he expects us to wrestle and work it so he can give us the next line.

That is the opening we have...  But it is not a wide open 'anything goes' opening... Because whatever comes next can't make what has come before a lie.  The best/worse it can be is we did not understand.

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@The Folk Prophet I'm just not as comfortable as you are in terms of speaking in absolutes when it comes to addressing the unknowns of the universe. Can we rely on the gospel to dispel some of those unknowns? Yes, but just because the gospel might connect a couple dots for us, we are far from understanding all the intricacies that will be the reality of life hereafter.

With that said, I tend to agree with a lot of your positions on this matter. Much of your understanding of the gospel overlaps with my own. 

53 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

They can't have a continuation of seeds, so otherwise, they can call their relationships whatever they like. But it's not eternal marriage, because eternal marriage is about the continuation of seeds.

You're probably right on this. What would the point be? Seems pointless. 

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

But...and this is the point... do you believe for one second that the official church thinking on slavery EVER justified inhumanity, chains, whippings, killing, and the like as "not sin"?

Good point. 

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

And even if sex is a thing, and even if those in the Terrestrial or Telestial kingdom accordingly wanted to spend their eternities doing the gay horizontal mambo with each other, then how does proclaiming themselves married change anything?

Ten points for coming up with the eternal "gay horizontal mambo" lol. Maybe eternal marriage is allowed for homosexual couples for the sake of the union itself. Does marriage have to be accompanied with procreation?

It doesn't make much of a difference to me if I put God in that box or not, so I'm left with the attitude of it won't matter much to me however that plays out when we find out what life hereafter is really like.

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

As to polygamy -- I've said this before but perhaps you missed it. We still practice it. It's eternal law. It's canonized scripture. It is not, in and of itself, remotely a sin. But, like with anything, there are rules surrounding it, and the breaking of those rules, as with all church rules, constitutes sin. And that was always the case. The rules changed as to the when and where of polygamy. Currently it is only authorized if one's prior wife is deceased. But the idea that authorized plural marriage was considered righteous and is now considered a sin is simply false.

I don't agree with polygamy not being a good example of a flip-flop sin in the Church's history.  The fact is, if I went out and bought myself a nice little cul-de-sac in Nevada with 5 homes so I could have all my wives conveniently there with me (named Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday), I would be excommunicated. 

Your redirection of how the sin is a sin seems too lawyerly to me even if technically correct.  If currently participating in polygamy is classified as a sin, it seems no different to me as to which level it's considered a sin.

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1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

That may be your intent.. But it is not how it has been communcated

I did not say, "God would never do that." I said, very plainly, he did do that. And I said why. So the communication failure doesn't seem to be on my end. 

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On 8/26/2021 at 11:18 AM, clbent04 said:

It's more a matter of faith than time. Time is largely only a relevant factor for God withholding truth from those not sufficiently developed.

Ether 3:20 

 

I don't believe this to be true.   We learn line upon line.   He reveals those lines to us in their time.   

 

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“It is not wisdom that we should have all knowledge at once presented before us; but that we should have a little at a time.”9

 

Quote

30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, aprecept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn bwisdom; for unto him that creceiveth I will give dmore; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.

Quote

12 For he will agive unto the faithful line upon line, precept upon precept; and I will btry you and prove you herewith.

 

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37 minutes ago, Grunt said:

We learn line upon line.   He reveals those lines to us in their time.   

God reveals line upon line to us as soon as we allow Him to do so.  It's largely dependent on us and our levels of faith and obedience, not some specific amount of time.  We all progress at different speeds.  The more relevant factor of what God reveals to us is based on our faith and obedience.

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7 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

God reveals line upon line to us as soon as we allow Him to do so.  It's largely dependent on us and our levels of faith and obedience, not some specific amount of time.  We all progress at different speeds.  The more relevant factor of what God reveals to us is based on our faith and obedience.

I absolutely disagree, as I stated.  I have personal experience to the contrary. 

 

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31 minutes ago, Grunt said:

I absolutely disagree, as I stated.  I have personal experience to the contrary. 

 

I can't argue with your personal experience. I'm more so speaking to how I understand revelation to work in general, not anecdotally or how you personally interpreted your own experiences.  The scriptures show that God opens the Heavens to the elect among us. 

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3 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I can't argue with your personal experience. I'm more so speaking to how I understand revelation to work in general, not anecdotally or how you personally interpreted your own experiences.  The scriptures show that God opens the Heavens to the elect among us. 

I agree.  And as I cited above, they also show they reveal things in their time.

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1 minute ago, Grunt said:

I agree.  And as I cited above, they also show they reveal things in their time.

My point is, whenever revelations are set to occur at their appropriate time, that time is often decided by us, not time itself. God adjusts how he proceeds with the building of His Kingdom based on where we are spiritually. And that's why I keep reverting back to my point that the more relevant factor isn't time itself, but rather how developed we are with our faith and obedience. 

Do you think if the body of the Church in general was more faithful and obedient than it is today that the leaders of the Church would be receiving the exact same revelation from God with where we should be focused?

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1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

My point is, whenever revelations are set to occur at their appropriate time, that time is often decided by us, not time itself. God adjusts how he proceeds with the building of His Kingdom based on where we are spiritually. And that's why I keep reverting back to my point that the more relevant factor isn't time itself, but rather how developed we are with our faith and obedience. 

Do you think if the body of the Church in general was more faithful and obedient than it is today that the leaders of the Church would be receiving the exact same revelation from God with where we should be focused?

I understand what your point is.  I just don't agree with it.

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On the subject, I'd stay in the Church and do as it says as there is no other option that has the same ordinances available.  It can be difficult to explain how or why, but I'll attempt it below.

I've already been through the stage where the Church changes it's doctrine in a fundamental manner.  This isn't the place to discuss it.

My opinion is that MUCH of the membership problems the Church is having today is a result of the Church changing some key elements of it's doctrine (once again, probably not the place to discuss such things in detail as it tends to things not beneficial or spiritually uplifting).

The thing is that one has to be able to separate out the difference between what the CHURCH is and what the GOSPEL is.  The Church is a manmade construct to carry the gospel to the world.  It's is more like a vessel that carries the contents of the gospel forth than the actual contents themselves.  Many people confuse the two and conflate the two as being one and the same.

The Church changes over time, the gospel never changes and is eternal.  The Church changes how it is organized (for example, once we had a Patriarch that in some interpretations was a co-equal in authority to the prophet, just in a different arena of authority...no...that position no longer exists.  This type of reorganization has occurred quite frequently over my lifetime) while the gospel stays the same.  Ironically, sometimes their are specific verses that state explicitly how something is to be organized which we have tossed out.  This is NOT a fault of the Church as it is a vessel that's being steered along by men and crewed by men who are fallible and imperfect.

To often people expect perfection within the Church when the only individual that was ever perfect was the Lord himself.  The Church, because it is crewed by imperfect people itself sometimes has imperfections among how it is sailing in the waters of the world.  The Gospel itself...is still perfect.  Because one is perfect and the other is not, sometimes there are conflicts where they do not agree with each other.

I think as the world, and thus members of the Church fall further and further away from how we should be, that there will be many things that will be taken away.  Things of significance that could illuminate our minds and help us achieve true knowledge in this life will be lost to many who come after due to the iniquity of the world.  The Book of Mormon is a type and Shadow of what is coming, and if we believe it than we know that near the coming of the Lord almost no one will be righteous...even those within the Church.  Almost ALL will be wicked, including members.  The ones that are saved are just less wicked than those who are destroyed. 

The world and the membership itself are going to agree with wickedness more and more.  Evil will be seen as good, and good will be seen as evil.  In such an environment where when you do good you are seen as being evil, and when you do evil you are congratulated as good it will be hard to retain focus on righteousness at times.  I expect as the membership in general drifts more towards this view of the world where they also view evil as good, more and more of the things that used to be plain and precious to the members will be taken away and replaced with something else.  The new things may soothe the modernistic morality of members who prescribe to things of the world, but in truth will offer less in saving grace, saving ordinances, saving power, and knowledge of our Lord and Father than what past generations have had.  The only comfort for those who see this occurring is to realize this has been predicted and all it means is that the Coming of the Lord is closer than it was before.  We just need to keep enduring to the end and hope that he comes soon.

In that light, I think there will be many changes that will come eventually that will remove plain and precious items of the gospel.  There will be things spelled out in the scriptures that the church may go completely against or counter in it's policies, directly acting against what is taught in the gospel.  That does not mean it is time for us to fall away, anymore than when other changes occurred.  It means to hold on because the storm is peaking and the ship is shaking violently.  Getting out is just the best way to drown quickly.

So, regardless of what happens there, I think I'm in the Church regardless of what they proclaim...whether I feel it is enlightened and terrific, or something that goes contrary to what doctrine teaches.  Stay in the Boat, because jumping out when the storms are hitting is not a smart idea...especially when we are so far from shore.

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1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

On the subject, I'd stay in the Church and do as it says as there is no other option that has the same ordinances available.  It can be difficult to explain how or why, but I'll attempt it below.

[...]

So, regardless of what happens there, I think I'm in the Church regardless of what they proclaim...whether I feel it is enlightened and terrific, or something that goes contrary to what doctrine teaches.  Stay in the Boat, because jumping out when the storms are hitting is not a smart idea...especially when we are so far from shore.

I respect that attitude and try to emulate it.

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

I've already been through the stage where the Church changes it's doctrine in a fundamental manner.  This isn't the place to discuss it.

My opinion is that MUCH of the membership problems the Church is having today is a result of the Church changing some key elements of it's doctrine (once again, probably not the place to discuss such things in detail as it tends to things not beneficial or spiritually uplifting).

If by "doctrine" you mean the literal meaning of "teaching", then I agree with you. Through continued revelation, the Church has changed its fundamental teachings many times since the beginning of the Restoration. Examples include teachings on premortal existence, heavenly Parentage, the Word of Wisdom, the practice of plural marriage, and the denial or admittance to the Priesthood and temple ordinances to those of black African descent.

If by "doctrine" you mean the widespread, popular interpretation of "underlying truths", then I disagree. The Restored Church has, through revelation, continued to grow in its understanding of basic truths, but has never declared any fundamental truths to be false as previously taught. The Church has never taught and will never teach falsehoods as fundamental underlying truths. Such a thing would be something, as President Woodruff said, "not in the programme."

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

The thing is that one has to be able to separate out the difference between what the CHURCH is and what the GOSPEL is.  The Church is a manmade construct to carry the gospel to the world.  It's is more like a vessel that carries the contents of the gospel forth than the actual contents themselves.  Many people confuse the two and conflate the two as being one and the same.

I could not disagree more. The Restored (note the term) Church most certainly is not "a manmade construct". It was literally restored by Jesus Christ himself through the agency of Joseph Smith and others. That its leaders are mortal, fallible men who may sometimes make mistakes, even in their sacred administrative duties, does not lessen the Church's essential divine character in the least.

The Restored Church is the very kingdom of God on earth. Through it, the gospel is preached to the world. Without the Church, the gospel is not preached to the world. There is no clean separation between "Church" and "gospel". Such a thing is impossible, like separating egg from flour in a chocolate cake.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Rather than start a new thread - I have decided this thread is close enough and I will post some thoughts here.  Recently the wife and I visited with our daughter and her family that live quite far away from Utah.  I will give some background before going into detail of our visit.  About a decade and a half ago my daughter and her husband took all their saving and husband went back to law school to become a lawyer.  They decided to use student loans to maintain their life style while hubby finished law school.  This proved to be a very bad choice and has saddled them with crushing debt that they are just now able to start to pay principle.  This debt has made them very bitter toward the world.  In addition, while at Law school, they encountered LDS LGB members that came out of the closet and struggled with their church membership.  This turned them bitter against the Church and as many can imagine  from my post has strained my relationship with them.

The daughter and husband decided that they would raise their children in a very liberal and open manner - letting their children choose they path through life - especially religion notions.  For a while the grand children would go to church with us but as time has passed they all have drifted into worldly paths which bring me to one particular grand daughter just entering her teenage years.  The wife and I (after much prayer) decided that with this visit we would just listen and not comment as we have done in the past.  Things are better with daughter - about a year and a half ago the wife and I offered a grant and loan so they could buy a house.  They are making enough but their credit is awful.  

One other thing to know about our daughter - though she grew up quite active she has always resented that boys seem to get the better part of life.  I often served in the young men and the wife often served in the young women.  Our daughter though the young men got special favor - from the priesthood to more money for more fun activities. 

Back to grand daughter - a few months ago we learned that this girl and decided to be referenced as a boy.  This is where we decided to just listen.  Over the years I have been particularly close to this grand daughter.  Like me she is also dyslectic and likes science.  And so I sat with her to listen why she wants to transition to being a boy.    I will share what I learned.

Grand daughter began to feel cheated and out of place when she started her period.  Boys do not have to deal with such issues.  I also realize that the beginning teenage years are quite awkward - perhaps more so for girls.  But for grand daughter this was just the beginning.  She began to realize that relationship with boys could lead to her becoming pregnant.  Even at a young and tender age - her girl friends that were very interested in boys have gotten into serious trouble while it seem that the boys got off scot free and worry free.  She is quite good looking and already boys seem to have only one thing in mind - and we know what that is.

So what I have learned is that daughter has decided that the best way to deal with all this is to be identified as a guy.  Boys now will be friends and leave her alone sexually.  She also gets lots of attention and special treatment from other kids - but especially at school from teachers.  I know this all sound nuts but Satan has made our society into a place where gender identification is upside down.

For the record - as I listened to grand daughter I did express my difficulties having known and loved her as my grand daughter.  She hugged me (hugs are difficult for me) and said I could reference her as my grand daughter.  I expressed as well as I could that I love her.  My prayer is that this will pass as she matures and comes to understand life better.  My point in all this is that as we listen we learn that many struggling with life do so because everything around them is upside down and they choose poorly because it seems the easier way.

I think things are evolving in the church such that the Saints can love back into the fold those sheep that have become lost and upside down trying to deal with a world gone crazy.

 

The Traveler

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Oh wow @Traveler.  May God bless and inspire you as you try to love your grandkid.

From the peanut gallery:
- One of the most hated, ignored, scorned, and hidden statistics out there, is how many transgender folks "detransition" after having made some sort of formal move.  The true percentage isn't known, or at least the answer depends on who you ask.  But from what I can tell, it's probably half or more - maybe even 75%.   So you have plenty of good justification to hope.

- Thinking of transgenderism as a religion, relevant biological facts are being treated similar to a heliocentrist view of the cosmos in 16th century Rome.  As you struggle to go about teaching true things and countering false things, ask yourself what Galileo could have done to be more effective.  Inquisitions and excommunications (and even some tortures and executions) are alive and well in the trans-affirming culture.

- Clothing preferences and hairstyles can be changed.   Even hormones and medicinal measures can be changed.  "Bottom surgery" is scary, and those who go that far tend to have far higher rates of mental illness and suicide.  Remember to love the kid.

 

- If it helps, here's the civil war in the LGBTQA+ community:

"Biological sex isn't relevant, gender preference is all that matters, and if you think otherwise, you're transphobic." (says the Trans folks who want people to date them according to what they present as, not what they biologically are).

"Genital preference is healthy and normal.  It's ok to be gay, and prefer one set of genitals over the other, and if you think otherwise, you're homophobic.  Trans attempts to pressure gays and lesbians into accepting them as sexual partners, are reminiscent of the torturous and evil conversion therapy attempts that we finally rid ourselves of." (says the gays who really aren't turned on by female genitalia, and lesbians who really, really, really don't want anything to do with weiners on their romantic partners, no matter what gender they claim to be).

The civil war is quite active, and occasionally violent, in various activist ends of the alphabet spectrum.  Protect your kiddo as much as you can. 

Edited by NeuroTypical
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On 9/27/2021 at 1:17 PM, Traveler said:

Rather than start a new thread - I have decided this thread is close enough and I will post some thoughts here.  Recently the wife and I visited with our daughter and her family that live quite far away from Utah.  I will give some background before going into detail of our visit.  About a decade and a half ago my daughter and her husband took all their saving and husband went back to law school to become a lawyer.  They decided to use student loans to maintain their life style while hubby finished law school.  This proved to be a very bad choice and has saddled them with crushing debt that they are just now able to start to pay principle.  This debt has made them very bitter toward the world.  In addition, while at Law school, they encountered LDS LGB members that came out of the closet and struggled with their church membership.  This turned them bitter against the Church and as many can imagine  from my post has strained my relationship with them.

The daughter and husband decided that they would raise their children in a very liberal and open manner - letting their children choose they path through life - especially religion notions.  For a while the grand children would go to church with us but as time has passed they all have drifted into worldly paths which bring me to one particular grand daughter just entering her teenage years.  The wife and I (after much prayer) decided that with this visit we would just listen and not comment as we have done in the past.  Things are better with daughter - about a year and a half ago the wife and I offered a grant and loan so they could buy a house.  They are making enough but their credit is awful.  

One other thing to know about our daughter - though she grew up quite active she has always resented that boys seem to get the better part of life.  I often served in the young men and the wife often served in the young women.  Our daughter though the young men got special favor - from the priesthood to more money for more fun activities. 

Back to grand daughter - a few months ago we learned that this girl and decided to be referenced as a boy.  This is where we decided to just listen.  Over the years I have been particularly close to this grand daughter.  Like me she is also dyslectic and likes science.  And so I sat with her to listen why she wants to transition to being a boy.    I will share what I learned.

Grand daughter began to feel cheated and out of place when she started her period.  Boys do not have to deal with such issues.  I also realize that the beginning teenage years are quite awkward - perhaps more so for girls.  But for grand daughter this was just the beginning.  She began to realize that relationship with boys could lead to her becoming pregnant.  Even at a young and tender age - her girl friends that were very interested in boys have gotten into serious trouble while it seem that the boys got off scot free and worry free.  She is quite good looking and already boys seem to have only one thing in mind - and we know what that is.

So what I have learned is that daughter has decided that the best way to deal with all this is to be identified as a guy.  Boys now will be friends and leave her alone sexually.  She also gets lots of attention and special treatment from other kids - but especially at school from teachers.  I know this all sound nuts but Satan has made our society into a place where gender identification is upside down.

For the record - as I listened to grand daughter I did express my difficulties having known and loved her as my grand daughter.  She hugged me (hugs are difficult for me) and said I could reference her as my grand daughter.  I expressed as well as I could that I love her.  My prayer is that this will pass as she matures and comes to understand life better.  My point in all this is that as we listen we learn that many struggling with life do so because everything around them is upside down and they choose poorly because it seems the easier way.

I think things are evolving in the church such that the Saints can love back into the fold those sheep that have become lost and upside down trying to deal with a world gone crazy.

 

The Traveler

I'm sure you'll grow through this experience, as you seem to have approached it with an open heart.  We can be kind and loving without sacrificing our principles.   

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