BYU - Call to Arms


mikbone
 Share

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I actually amazoned that (is that a verb?) when you brought it up the other day and copies were from $60 to north of $400.  Got any leads on a cheaper copy?

Dude, I'm sitting on a gold mine.

Check out https://openlibrary.org/works/OL164397W/Man_of_steel_and_velvet

you can get a free account and read it digitally, it is a bit of a hassle as you have to check it out hourly to continue reading.  

31154A07-5272-46EB-82FC-E5CD91E33E2C.thumb.jpeg.36b08f7b28f7377b3e53bb1b56896d14.jpeg

Edited by mikbone
Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Yes, It almost always reflects poorly on the husbands.   Women are awesome.  

Men are Dogs.

Why do you believe that a woman choosing to work somehow means her husband is of lesser quality?

(If I'm incorrect in my understanding of your viewpoint here, I apologize and please help me understand better).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Vort said:

I have spent a good portion of my life trying to overcome this poisonous philosophy and to teach my sons and daughter that it's a Satanic falsehood. We appear to agree on most matters, but if your summary above is sincere, we certainly disagree on this.

We know that man has the potential to become as God is. 

He also has the potential to do horrible things.  

My hope is that many can follow the footsteps of our Lord.

I have just seen too many bad things happen to assume that a Man is more like Jesus than a Dog...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Jane_Doe said:

Why do you believe that a woman choosing to work somehow means her husband is of lesser quality?

(If I'm incorrect in my understanding of your viewpoint here, I apologize and please help me understand better).

Not always, but in my experience, oftentimes yes.

I don't go around judging people.  And calling me an introvert would be generous.

During surgery, we sometimes have lots of time to talk.  And I have found that almost universally women would generally be happier at home than dealing with the issues at the hospital.  Administration compliance, taking care of patients that are less than gracious.  Endless paperwork.  etc...

If given the option of staying at home with the family, especially during COVID, and assuming that they had a man with integrity that provided for the family.  I believe that many of my co-workers would choose not to work.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, mikbone said:

Not always, but in my experience, oftentimes yes.

I don't go around judging people.  And calling me an introvert would be generous.

During surgery, we sometimes have lots of time to talk.  And I have found that almost universally women would generally be happier at home than dealing with the issues at the hospital.  Administration compliance, taking care of patients that are less than gracious.  Endless paperwork.  etc...

If given the option of staying at home with the family, especially during COVID, and assuming that they had a man with integrity that provided for the family.  I believe that many of my co-workers would choose not to work.  

You do realize that that's an assumption, and yourpostions seems to be largely built on it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Pardon me: but that seems really shaky ground for a huge position and inherently HUGELY judgmental one.

Well, let me know what kind of fulfillment you get out of your work.

Is it the money, camaraderie, challenge, growth?

I save lives and make the lame walk for a living.  I get more reward watching a movie with my family than I do from work.

If I could retire tomorrow I would.  I’d love to either become a carpenter or blacksmith and teach my boys some craftsmanship.  

I’m happy with my decision to be an Orthopaedics surgeon.  But I cant share my skills with my family.  They cant come into the OR and watch.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Well, let me know what kind of fulfillment you get out of your work.

Is it the money, camaraderie, challenge, growth?

Myself: all of the above.  I enjoy my job: it gives me puzzles, new things to learn & solve, etc.  That doesn't mean I don't also prize my family extremely.  But I also do enjoy my work.  Which isn't to say that there aren't headaches involved with it that I regularly gripe about.

Running through other ladies I know:

- She works at a school because she enjoys being able to learn how better educate her children, and to help other kids & families learn.  It's a "because I have been given much" attitude.  Plus, she enjoys having the extra money in the family budget to save for children's college and rainy-day fund.

- She works because she wants to & enjoys the connection with other adults.  She goes stir crazy and clinically depressed when she's been a a stay-at-home mom.  

- She works because she loves her husband and doesn't want him gone 100+ hours a week working multiple jobs.  She'd rather have him work one job, and then come home to be with her & the kids both emotionally/physically.  She choose to work some herself rather than have a MIA husband.

- She works because her husband has health issues and it's uncertain how long he'll be able to work at all.  Her working means they have savings now and if he needs to stop working she already has an established career.  

- She works to better learn & challenge herself.  She's loves the new skills she's acquired and wants to keep growing mentally.

 

 

None of these ladies are working because their husband is lazy or a dog.  In fact, I know each of the husbands and they are all good hard working men at the job & at home as husbands & fathers.  It's HORRIBLY inaccurate and offense to both the ladies and men to assume "oh she's working, he must be low quality".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, mikbone said:

There is bad, good, better, and best.

What kind of Job do you think you will have in heaven?  How about Heavenly Mother ?

We’re talking about the here & now Earthly life.  Again, a woman working does NOT mean her husband is some type of lesser quality. It is very inaccurate and offsenive for anyone to make such an assumption or judge them at all. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

We’re talking about the here & now Earthly life.  Again, a woman working does NOT mean her husband is some type of lesser quality. It is very inaccurate and offsenive for anyone to make such an assumption or judge them at all. 

Im not judging your friend’s husbands.

I am very concerned about the support of the omega-male culture at BYU. As well as the continued tolerance of frankly apostate faculty and staff.

Edited by mikbone
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, mikbone said:

Im not judging  your friend’s husbands.

I am very concerned about the support of the omega-male culture at BYU. As well as the continued tolerance of frankly apostate faculty and staff.

You are judging me, your coworkers, thier husbands, etc. 

Again: a woman working or having a education does not equate to “omega-males”.  Rather, a man should CELEBRATE another person getting a degree, working a good job, other other accomplishments. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Jane_Doe said:

You are judging me, your coworkers, thier husbands, etc. 

Again: a woman working or having a education does not equate to “omega-males”.  Rather, a man should CELEBRATE another person getting a degree, working a good job, other other accomplishments. 

I don’t know you.  Have no idea if you are hispanic, blond, or brunette.

You have taken offense at my perceived weakness of men.  You may have a preponderance of Christ-like men around you.  Unfortunately I perceive a bunch of marshmallow men.  And the generalized acceptance and tolerance of everyone.

I didn’t obtain my degrees so that my fellow men would celebrate my accomplishments.  

I do love to see men and women overcome and reach for greatness though.

When we all finish this life and have our exit interview with our maker.  I doubt he will spend much time on our 9-5 jobs.

I bet the Lord will be much more interested in our character and how we led and treated our families.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, mikbone said:

I don’t know you.  Have no idea if you are hispanic, blond, or brunette.

You have taken offense at my perceived weakness of men.  You may have a preponderance of Christ-like men around you.  Unfortunately I perceive a bunch of marshmallow men.  And the generalized acceptance and tolerance of everyone.

I didn’t obtain my degrees so that my fellow men would celebrate my accomplishments.  

I do love to see men and women overcome and reach for greatness though.

When we all finish this life and have our exit interview with our maker.  I doubt he will spend much time on our 9-5 jobs.

I bet the Lord will be much more interested in our character and how we led and treated our families.

 

You have not elaborated on what you consider to be “marshmallow men”. But a woman working does NOT mean her husband is of lesser quality.  Neither does A woman earning a degree somehow make a man weaker. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Godless
1 hour ago, mikbone said:

Well, let me know what kind of fulfillment you get out of your work.

Is it the money, camaraderie, challenge, growth?

I save lives and make the lame walk for a living.  I get more reward watching a movie with my family than I do from work.

If I could retire tomorrow I would.  I’d love to either become a carpenter or blacksmith and teach my boys some craftsmanship.  

I’m happy with my decision to be an Orthopaedics surgeon.  But I cant share my skills with my family.  They cant come into the OR and watch.

Most people aren't surgeons. Most married couples NEED two incomes to make ends meet. The economy you knew when you were in college isn't today's economy. Rent, mortgage, tuition, gas, food, the cost of all of these things have gone up over the last few decades (and the minimum wage hasn't, but that's a different can of worms). 

And like @Jane_Doe, I am curious at what you mean by "marshmallow men" and "omega males". Because I can tell you right now, the type of men that I typically see throwing around terms like "alpha male" and "omega male" couldn't possibly be farther from the type of man I want my son to be.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Godless said:

, I am curious at what you mean by "marshmallow men" and "omega males".

 

From the above Neal A Maxwell BYU Fireside Talk.

“We must be Christ-centered individually. We must have his and God’s power to do our work, and we must take seriously the challenge of becoming more Christlike. You’re soon going to go out into a world full of marshmallow men. Like the act of putting a finger into a marshmallow, there is no core in these men, there is no center, and when one removes his finger, the marshmallow resumes its former shape. We are in a world of people who want to yield to everything—to every fad and to every fashion. It is incredibly important that we be committed to the core—committed to those things that matter, about which our Father in heaven has leveled with us through his Son, Jesus Christ, and his prophets.”

 

Edited by mikbone
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

You are judging me, your coworkers, thier husbands, etc.

He literally just said he was not. If you refuse to take his words at face value, why should you expect to have yours so taken?

34 minutes ago, Godless said:

Most married couples NEED two incomes to make ends meet.

I heartily disbelieve this. For the past 25 years, I have raised my family on one unimpressive salary (and sometimes no salary for months at a time) in one of the more expensive markets in the nation. We did not live in a huge house. We had three boys sharing a triple bunk bed. We never ate out. When we took the occasional vacation, it was to someplace within a day's drive. We owned used vehicles.

And despite whatever failures you may assign to my efforts to provide for my family, we were and are happy. On one income. In the Seattle area.

So no, I don't buy the weak excuse of "we HAVE to have two incomes just to make ends meet!" For every family who makes that claim truthfully, I can show you ten who simply live above their income.

Edited by Vort
Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, mikbone said:

 

From the above Neal A Maxwell BYU Fireside Talk.

“We must be Christ-centered individually. We must have his and God’s power to do our work, and we must take seriously the challenge of becoming more Christlike. You’re soon going to go out into a world full of marshmallow men. Like the act of putting a finger into a marshmallow, there is no core in these men, there is no center, and when one removes his finger, the marshmallow resumes its former shape. We are in a world of people who want to yield to everything—to every fad and to every fashion. It is incredibly important that we be committed to the core—committed to those things that matter, about which our Father in heaven has leveled with us through his Son, Jesus Christ, and his prophets.”

 

 Can you elaborate on what you mean when you use the term “marshmallow men”?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

 Can you elaborate on what you mean when you use the term “marshmallow men”?

Did you read or listen to Neal A. Maxwell’s talk.  As far as I know, he coined the term.  It is defined within the text I quoted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Godless said:

Most married couples NEED two incomes to make ends meet.

Before I was an Orthopaedic surgeon.  I was a medical student and a resident.  During the 4 years of Medical School we lived off school loans and had 3 children.  During the next 5 years of residency, I worked an average of 120 hours a week, and made 30K a year.  We had 6 children by the time we finished residency.

My wife did a heroic job taking care of the family and me during this challenging time.  

We were able to make ends meet.

Need is a relative term.

Edited by mikbone
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, mikbone said:

Did you read or listen to Neal A. Maxwell’s talk.  As far as I know, he coined the term.  It is defined within the text I quoted.

People can listen to the same talk and hear very different messages.  There is an extremely high probability of that being the case for this talk. As I’m specifically interested in how YOU are using the term, my asking you for your own definition in your own words, rather than me imposing my hearing on to you. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Godless said:

Most people aren't surgeons. Most married couples NEED two incomes to make ends meet. The economy you knew when you were in college isn't today's economy. Rent, mortgage, tuition, gas, food, the cost of all of these things have gone up over the last few decades (and the minimum wage hasn't, but that's a different can of worms). 

And like @Jane_Doe, I am curious at what you mean by "marshmallow men" and "omega males". Because I can tell you right now, the type of men that I typically see throwing around terms like "alpha male" and "omega male" couldn't possibly be farther from the type of man I want my son to be.

I think this needs a little more pushback.  “Need”, as @mikbone says, is relative.  I have six kids, and Just_A_Girl hasn’t done paid work since getting pregnant with our first kid sixteen years ago; and my paycheck just climbed above $70K for the first time four years ago.  It was well under $45K for nearly all of the years before that.  We’ve had to embrace a standard of living most of our non-LDS peers wouldn’t be caught dead living; we’ve been blessed with extended family and church supports of a nature that most of our non-LDS peers wouldn’t feel comfortable requesting or receiving (if they even had such extended family supports at all); we had to do some very careful educational and career planning at a very particular stage of our lives.  But it has absolutely been possible—and worth it.

I can sympathize with the argument that as time goes on, one’s financial opportunities become more and more constricted due to choices made (or *not* made) early on.  But for purposes of selecting a marriage partner, which I think is the thrust of Mikbone’s point—the Church provides a pretty solid set of priorities, plans, and resources through which a man (and, in time, his sons) is perfectly capable of becoming a sole breadwinner for his family; and by the early 20s it should be fairly easy for a young lady to discern whether a potential mate has accepted those priorities and plans or not.

LDS women will do what they will do; but I believe it is the responsibility of every LDS husband and father (certainly within the first world) to support his family in such a manner that his wife doesn’t have to work outside of the home unless she wants to.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

my paycheck just climbed above $70K for the first time four years ago.  It was well under $45K for nearly all of the years before that.

I remember when the idea of being a "rich lawyer" was a thing.

There's a guy in our ward who was a lawyer. He quit to become a school teacher because he could make better money. A SCHOOL TEACHER TO MAKE BETTER MONEY!

To quote a Sondheim lyric: Smoke on your pipe and put that in.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share