Musicals


The Folk Prophet
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59 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

@The Folk Prophet @dprh-thoughts on Wicked? I’ll be totally upfront, Defying Gravity is a big time guilty pleasure song for me. 

I enjoy the music and the play.  It was the first live musical I went to.  (I'm kind of a noob when it comes to musicals :D )  

But there will always be a little bad taste in my mouth because I read the book before ever hearing the music or seeing the play.  The book had some graphic scenes that I don't care to elaborate on other than to say I'll never read anything by that author again.  It took some serious convincing from friends to see the play.  

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59 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

@The Folk Prophet @dprh-thoughts on Wicked? I’ll be totally upfront, Defying Gravity is a big time guilty pleasure song for me. 

I enjoy the music and the play.  It was the first live musical I went to.  (I'm kind of a noob when it comes to musicals :D )  

But there will always be a little bad taste in my mouth because I read the book before ever hearing the music or seeing the play.  The book had some graphic scenes that I don't care to elaborate on other than to say I'll never read anything by that author again.  It took some serious convincing from friends to see the play.  

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Just now, dprh said:

I enjoy the music and the play.  It was the first live musical I went to.  (I'm kind of a noob when it comes to musicals :D )  

But there will always be a little bad taste in my mouth because I read the book before ever hearing the music or seeing the play.  The book had some graphic scenes that I don't care to elaborate on other than to say I'll never read anything by that author again.  It took some serious convincing from friends to see the play.  

I started the book. Never finished it. Terrible. So dark and nasty.

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2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I watched West Side Story and Fiddler on the Roof back to back last week. I can't decide which is the better movie musical. But this much I can say. .

I like the storyline better in West Side Story, but the musical numbers in Fiddler on the Roof have a leg up.

Do you also like any of these Broadway shows? I haven't seen many, but Wicked and Oliver! were great.

Edited by clbent04
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10 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I like the storyline better in West Side Story, but the musical numbers in Fiddler on the Roof have a leg up.

Do you also like any of these Broadway shows? I have seen many, but Wicked and Oliver! were great.

We discussed Wicked. See above.

Oliver I've seen the movie, which I never much liked, but then the Cameron Mackintosh reboot cast recording....yes...loved it. The difference....the orchestrations. Overall not my favorite musical. But...

I pretty much totally disagree on the storyline being better in West Side Story. The story in West Side Story is moderately shallow. It improves upon the Shakespeare  it's based on (Romeo and Juliet...Shakespeare's worst work). But it's still moderately shallow...relatively. Not entirely, of course. But relatively.

Fiddler, on the other hand, might have the most depth of story line of any musical ever. And now that I have a daughter of my own... the last time I watched it last week I bawled my eyes out. So heart wrenching -- particularly from a conservative religious point of view AND a modern point of view. Fiddler is an incredible meaningful and deep story that really leaves you thinking. West Side Story is a simplistic idea. Hate is bad. Well duh West Side Story. :D :D

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4 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I pretty much totally disagree on the storyline being better in West Side Story. The story in West Side Story is moderately shallow. It improves upon the Shakespeare  it's based on (Romeo and Juliet...Shakespeare's worst work). But it's still moderately shallow...relatively. Not entirely, of course. But relatively.

Fiddler, on the other hand, might have the most depth of story line of any musical ever. I'm thinking that maybe you didn't get the depth if you think the story doesn't have a leg up over pretty much any musical ever. And now that I have a daughter of my own... the last time I watched it last week I bawled my eyes out. So heart wrenching -- particularly from a conservative religious point of view AND a modern point of view. Fiddler is an incredible meaningful and deep story that really leaves you thinking. West Side Story is a simplistic idea. Hate is bad. Well duh West Side Story. :D :D

I found Fiddler on the Roof to be overly melodramatic. I'd agree the Fiddler's storyline is more in depth, but my metric for judging which storyline is better is heavily weighted on entertainment value, and West Side Story was more entertaining to me.

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1 minute ago, clbent04 said:

I found Fiddler on the Roof to be overly melodramatic. I'd agree the Fiddler's storyline is more in depth, but my metric for judging which storyline is better is heavily weighted on entertainment value, and West Side Story was more entertaining to me.

With this I mostly agree (not on the melodramatic thing)*. Though as I said in the opening post...it's a very thin line for me between the two, even on the enjoyment factor.

*Musicals ARE melodramatic. But Fiddler is way more down to earth than West Side Story.

Compare the love song Do You Love Me to Tonight. Fiddler more melodramatic? I think not.

Actually I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. What did you find melodramatic in Fiddler? I'm thinking maybe you're using the term slightly wrong. But maybe not. Can you expound?

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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Just now, LDSGator said:

@The Folk Prophet-aside from the ones we mentioned already, what do you think are some of the worst musicals of all time? 

Well, there are thousands of them and I haven't seen most. So who knows. Of what I have seen...I'll tell you what... I've been on a musical kick for the last few weeks and on Vudu I noticed that Flower Drum Song was free to watch with ads. I'd never seen it, though I sort of knew the music (My mom had the record when I was a kid. Not one listened to a ton, but still, I'd heard it). But I do generally love Rogers and Hammerstein. So I watched it.

TERRIBLE!

But that's really a hard question.

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4 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Actually I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. What did you find melodramatic in Fiddler? I'm thinking maybe you're using the term slightly wrong. But maybe not. Can you expound?

The Fiddler cast just really put so much of their heart and soul into the roles that every line seemed to so overly emphasized. When every line right off the bat comes across as overly sensationalized, it makes it hard for me to get entranced with the plot.

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Just now, clbent04 said:

The Fiddler cast just really put so much of their heart and soul into the roles that every line seemed to so overly emphasized. When every line right off the bat comes across as overly sensationalized, it makes it hard for me to get entranced with the plot.

Okay. I understand and see your point.

I guess I always took it as a moderately accurate representation of cultural Jewishness rather than an over-the-top caricature of that. I assume that, I think, because it hasn't been lambasted by the Jewish community (as far as I know) as inappropriate or anything. (Maybe I'm wrong...but I don't think so.) But I understand now what you mean and can even see how that might be off-putting to someone.

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Just now, The Folk Prophet said:
1 minute ago, clbent04 said:

The Fiddler cast just really put so much of their heart and soul into the roles that every line seemed to so overly emphasized. When every line right off the bat comes across as overly sensationalized, it makes it hard for me to get entranced with the plot.

Okay. I understand and see your point.

I guess I always took it as a moderately accurate representation of cultural Jewishness rather than an over-the-top caricature of that. I assume that, I think, because it hasn't been lambasted by the Jewish community (as far as I know) as inappropriate or anything. (Maybe I'm wrong...but I don't think so.) But I understand now what you mean and can even see how that might be off-putting to someone.

On the other hand... (heheh...if you don't get my chuckle, watch Fiddler again....).....

West Side Story starts out with people snapping to be cool and they call each other daddy-o and buddy-boy and stuff. So...caricatures? Dated ones, yes. But....

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2 hours ago, LDSGator said:

My wife is a huge Wizard of Oz fan, so we’ve heard it several times. Haven’t seen it live yet. 

I highly recommend seeing Wicked live. They put so much into the production value and special effects. Second to none in my limited Broadway experience. My favorite part about Wicked is the character development.  How they expounded upon the background stories of all the characters is creative genius and great storytelling.

2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Ah...Wicked. Yes. Well..... not a fan.

There are certain musicals that just feel..... gay

I didn't get that vibe at all from Wicked. I can't believe you don't like Wicked. Do you think maybe the title of it made you suspicious upfront to be on the lookout for any pernicious, gay undertones?

Edited by clbent04
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Just now, clbent04 said:

highly recommend seeing Wicked live. The put so much into the production value and special effects. Second to none in my limited Broadway experience. My favorite part about Wicked is the character development.  How they expounded upon the background stories of all the characters is creative genius and great storytelling

Thank you my friend, it’s on our list. 

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Just now, clbent04 said:

I didn't get that vibe at all from Wicked. I can't believe you don't like Wicked. Do you think maybe the title of it made you suspicious upfront to be on the lookup for any pernicious, gay undertones?

Haha. No. I was intrigued when I first heard about Wicked.

So I want to be clear that I'm mostly kidding. It's hard to actually articulate what bothers me about it.

But riffing on the manliness status of it...picture this: A dude singing -- "... I will never rest 'til then. This I swear! This I swear by....the stars!" And now picture a dude singing: "I think I'll try defying gravity...." And maybe that'll give you a sense of it. Haha. Okay...yes....defying gravity is a song written for a female to sing...so not fair. But the show just isn't..... manly. Like...at all.

But honestly that's probably me just projecting ideas onto it to try and explain what about it I dislike. It's probably not accurate at all. I just don't care for it. When I hear defying gravity I think...bleh.

Back on a fully serious note though....

I am, at my most core, skill-wise...an orchestrator. I understand orchestration and techniques in that regard more than anything else (except, perhaps the gospel). It's what I do. And I HATE the orchestration behind Defying Gravity. I don't like the way they did it. I won't go into the details of that. I think it'd bore most. And a lot of it is totally subjective. But I don't like that. I honestly think I could orchestrate that song so I'd like it. But I really dislike that part of it.

I also particularly dislike Idina Menzel's voice. She's like the worst example of belting just to belt. But even if she didn't overdo that, I'm just not a fan of her voice overall.

So there's a lot of strikes there.

I know I'm talking a lot about that song...and that's probably the core of why I feel I dislike Wicked, because I recognize that's "the hit" from the show...and when I listen to the rest of the album nothing moves me. So.......

I could write a novel on the problems I have with certain composing styles, orchestration styles, lyric approaches, etc. and why things work and don't work. But when push comes to shove...it's just not my taste in music.

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7 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I could write a novel on the problems I have with certain composing styles, orchestration styles, lyric approaches, etc. and why things work and don't work. But when push comes to shove...it's just not my taste in music.

Lol fair enough. I remember the Defying Gravity song, it just didn't stand out to me as much as it did for you apart from the other songs.

9 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I am, at my most core, skill-wise...an orchestrator. I understand orchestration and techniques in that regard more than anything else (except, perhaps the gospel). It's what I do.

Are you a professional-hobbyist orchestrator or that's what you actually do for a living?

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9 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

But riffing on the manliness status of it...picture this: A dude singing -- "... I will never rest 'til then. This I swear! This I swear by....the stars!" And now picture a dude singing: "I think I'll try defying gravity...." And maybe that'll give you a sense of it. Haha. Okay...yes....defying gravity is a song written for a female to sing...so not fair. But the show just isn't..... manly. Like...at all.

So, interesting story.  A few years ago, Kristen Chenowith had a tour and performed New Year's Eve show in Vegas.  My wife was working (one holiday shift in Q4) so I went with some of my in-laws.  I guess she had a team that would pick someone out of the audience to perform Defying Gravity with her on stage.  They brought a guy out and said it's the first time they'd ever chosen a male for this.  He did a fantastic job. He did seem to fit the stereotypical profile of a gay man.  

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19 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

on the lookup for any pernicious, gay undertones

So to threadjack my own thread a bit...this is actually an interesting concept. But I find this to be more the modus operandi of the gay crowd. I can't tell you how many times I've seen them claim something as theirs because of the "gay undertones" and been like, "What?!?"

One I saw recently was the 60s/70s show Bewitched. Because, you know, she had to hide who she really was. Therefore...gay. Right? <_<

I grew up on bewitched and enjoy it well enough that we've actually purchased the series. I've never felt it had gay undertones or any other undertones. But....well...they're claiming it.

When I joke about Wicked being "gay" I'm really joking. But I think the sense of that, even in the joke, just stems from seeing effeminate boys singing along to Defying Gravity. It's not because of undertones. I suspect...now that I think about it...that the wicked witch being who she really is but having to hide it and then "coming out" as "wicked" could, very easily, be seen as a gay undertone. I actually hadn't even thought about that until this very moment. But I would guess the gay crowd has already thought of that and already claimed it as their own. Because they coopt everything they can that way.

I think the idea that a show about being who you really are inside equates to "gay" is stupid. For example, I love Moana. By far my favorite Disney animated show. But I could easily see someone getting "gay" undertones from it if they interpreted Moana's inner voice and the idea to be who you really are as a gay message. I don't interpret it that way. I figure a gay message would be a person who actually comes out as....you know....gay.

The latest is this Luca show from Pixar which has been claimed by the trans and/or gay community as an undertone message of that. I haven't seen it yet. But......

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