Fether Posted August 29, 2021 Report Share Posted August 29, 2021 I think there is a line between concern and doubt. Concern is a natural feeling when we feel something g is important and we don’t understand it. But what makes concern turn into doubt? does doubt start when we start complaining about the church? Or disbelieving what we were taught? Anddenex 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grunt Posted August 29, 2021 Report Share Posted August 29, 2021 1 minute ago, Fether said: I think there is a line between concern and doubt. Concern is a natural feeling when we feel something g is important and we don’t understand it. But what makes concern turn into doubt? does doubt start when we start complaining about the church? Or disbelieving what we were taught? Personally, I believe it is a personal distinction. I had/have concern about some of the statements the Church has made, but I don't know if it's exactly "doubt" because I have yet to reconcile them with either what I know to be true or doctrine. There are other things I may have "doubt" about. They aren't consistent with my beliefs or some understanding. I don't complain about these things publicly, nor do I discuss them privately unless it's with intent to gain more light. (example: previous struggles with King Follett's Discourse that I've discussed here. I would ask and discuss them with friends to gain insight, but not denounce them). While I don't speak out or complain against the Church on these issues, and I follow them obediently, I would still consider them doubts. Fether 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fether Posted August 29, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2021 5 minutes ago, Grunt said: Personally, I believe it is a personal distinction. I had/have concern about some of the statements the Church has made, but I don't know if it's exactly "doubt" because I have yet to reconcile them with either what I know to be true or doctrine. There are other things I may have "doubt" about. They aren't consistent with my beliefs or some understanding. I don't complain about these things publicly, nor do I discuss them privately unless it's with intent to gain more light. (example: previous struggles with King Follett's Discourse that I've discussed here. I would ask and discuss them with friends to gain insight, but not denounce them). While I don't speak out or complain against the Church on these issues, and I follow them obediently, I would still consider them doubts. Would you say you are actively following Uchtdorf’s counsel to doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith? https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2013/10/come-join-with-us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grunt Posted August 29, 2021 Report Share Posted August 29, 2021 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Fether said: Would you say you are actively following Uchtdorf’s counsel to doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith? https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2013/10/come-join-with-us I don't know. It's hard to really doubt your doubts, right? Personally, I don't believe doubt is something you can control. That's why so many people get spun out by things they desperately want to get past. I make a rational decision to act faithfully as though my doubts were wrong. When able, I make intentional studies and prayers in areas that my issue(s) lie(s) in, and use faithful church sources or neutral historical documents. I love that talk, though. It's one of my favorites. Edited August 29, 2021 by Grunt JohnsonJones 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDSGator Posted August 29, 2021 Report Share Posted August 29, 2021 https://thirdhour.org/blog/top-articles/never-seen-letter-doubt-hugh-b-brown/ Hope this helps. JohnsonJones and dprh 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikbone Posted August 29, 2021 Report Share Posted August 29, 2021 (edited) https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2013/04/lord-i-believe?lang=eng One of my favorites. Don't lead with your doubts. I loved sports as a youth especially diving and pole-vaulting. Those are 2 activities you should never attempt leading with doubt. I once turned a 2.5 forward full twisting dive into a 2.25 forward 3/4 twisting dive. Which means I slammed the into the water with tremendous force onto my side. I ruptured my eardrum and developed a nasty middle ear infection (worst pain I’ve ever experienced). DO NOT LEAD WITH DOUBT! Edited August 29, 2021 by mikbone dprh 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CV75 Posted August 29, 2021 Report Share Posted August 29, 2021 2 hours ago, Fether said: I think there is a line between concern and doubt. Concern is a natural feeling when we feel something g is important and we don’t understand it. But what makes concern turn into doubt? does doubt start when we start complaining about the church? Or disbelieving what we were taught? I'd say concern might be when you think something you like to believe is challenged, and doubt might be when you don't believe it, or begin to not believe it any more. As long as there is concern, there is probably particle of belief or desire to believe remaining, which may or may not be warranted. Grunt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anddenex Posted August 31, 2021 Report Share Posted August 31, 2021 (edited) On 8/29/2021 at 10:10 AM, Fether said: I think there is a line between concern and doubt. Concern is a natural feeling when we feel something g is important and we don’t understand it. But what makes concern turn into doubt? does doubt start when we start complaining about the church? Or disbelieving what we were taught? I think there is a line between concern and doubt. I would agree. Doubt may lead to concern, and concern can definitely lead to doubt. There is a difference, as such, there is a line between the two and the line is mental, cognitive. An easy example is the Bible. There are some aspects of the Bible, and its teaching, that may raise concerns regarding God's perfect love, justice, and mercy. But I do not doubt God's love thus I wait for further light and knowledge. Or as Nephi said, paraphrased, "I may not know the meaning or reason of all things, but I do know God loves his children." But what makes concern turn into doubt? Doubt supersedes concern when we are no longer desiring or waiting for further light and knowledge. We have, so to speak, given up and have given into our concern as a matter of fact. The easiest example in the Church would be Joseph Smith. A person begins to study and learns more about some of Joseph's actions. This raises a concern regarding his prophetic calling. The concern is natural, and then we will be enticed with a choice -- to exercise faith or to accept doubt (which is interwoven with fear). When we exercise faith we are accepting and remembering the witness we have already received (the fruit of the tree we have eaten), and then we wait patiently for the arm of the Lord to be revealed (in this life or the next -- it doesn't matter to a person with faith in the Lord Jesus Christ). We know we are exercising doubt when we begin to question the reality of our individual witness. When we are no longer looking for further light and knowledge. When "we" have trusted in the arm of flesh (without the whole story), and we thus begin to rely on the arm of flesh for knowledge. Does doubt start when we start complaining about the church? That is a good question, but I would say it is more a symptom (sign) of doubt rather than it originating doubt. Doubt starts when we allow our personal -- arm of flesh -- fear to supersede our faith. Or disbelieving what we were taught? I would once again say that this is a symptom (sign) of doubt rather than it originating doubt. -------------------------------------------- If I were to pin point the starting of doubt I would say it is rooted in trust. The moment we begin to lose trust is the moment we will begin to doubt. Once we begin to doubt we will begin to see symptoms or signs of doubt: complaining, disbelieving, deconstruction, coming up with alternative reasons for our experiences, etc... Much like the fruits of the Spirit are: love, peace, joy, etc. Thus, we will then see/know we have doubt because we begin to bear the fruits/signs of doubt. The greatest war won in this life will be the war within. Edited August 31, 2021 by Anddenex MrShorty and Fether 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clwnuke Posted August 31, 2021 Report Share Posted August 31, 2021 1 hour ago, Anddenex said: Thus, we will then see/know we have doubt because we begin to bear the fruits/signs of doubt. The greatest war won in this life will be the war within. Wonderful and thoughtful post! Thank you 👍 Anddenex 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnsonJones Posted August 31, 2021 Report Share Posted August 31, 2021 On 8/29/2021 at 12:26 PM, mikbone said: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2013/04/lord-i-believe?lang=eng One of my favorites. Don't lead with your doubts. I loved sports as a youth especially diving and pole-vaulting. Those are 2 activities you should never attempt leading with doubt. I once turned a 2.5 forward full twisting dive into a 2.25 forward 3/4 twisting dive. Which means I slammed the into the water with tremendous force onto my side. I ruptured my eardrum and developed a nasty middle ear infection (worst pain I’ve ever experienced). DO NOT LEAD WITH DOUBT! I was never a diver or a pole-vaulter so I suppose I would not know about those. I know there are places I've visited where you should be cautious, charging headlong into something will get you in big trouble in some places, especially if one follows American instincts. I also know that during my short stint in the military, in the areas I served, those who charged headlong into stuff normally were the guys we didn't know very long. I played a few sports many decades ago in school. I don't know if it was doubt, as I was confident in my own abilities, but I never felt that I was guaranteed a win. There were others who felt that way...right up until I (or more aptly, my team) beat them at times, but I normally didn't count my chickens before they hatched...as I would put it. Confidence in one's abilities, so you don't doubt what you are able to do, but you also respect the limitations you have focusing on your strengths instead. In baseball that works a lot better than just assuming that you are going to go out there and slam a home run against the districts best pitcher. At the same time you don't want to fall prey to underestimating yourself. When you start to doubt what you could do yesterday, and what you can still do, you may perform worse. For example, catching a long ball as a right outfielder was never trouble for me, but I knew kids that would get nervous about a game and suddenly what they could easily do in practice they suddenly could not do during the game. As the game wore on they'd get worse and worse as they missed easy play after easy play until they were substituted with another player. In that case you don't want to give room for your doubt as it will only weaken you. However, overconfidence can also kill your game as well. Don't ever count on the pitcher being so good that they will have a perfect game...or that some batter with a low percentage will never be able to belt one out in your direction. I suppose that could count on doubt as well. Don't be so sure of other's abilities to perform that you let down your own ability to perform. Anyways, I suppose this is a little off topic, even though it may also be somewhat on topic also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fether Posted August 31, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2021 10 hours ago, Anddenex said: If I were to pin point the starting of doubt I would say it is rooted in trust. The moment we begin to lose trust is the moment we will begin to doubt. I love this. Makes perfect sense! Anddenex 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted August 31, 2021 Report Share Posted August 31, 2021 I wasn't really planning on commenting in this thread, but in my scripture reading last night I came across this: "And because of the knowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the veil; and he saw the finger of Jesus, which, when he saw, he fell with fear; for he knew that it was the finger of the Lord; and he had faith no longer, for he knew, nothing doubting." Ether 3:19 And the distinct thought I had was this: Doubting is a part of faith. I know that's not conventional thinking. And semantics definitely comes into play with this sort of discussion. But that's what it says, right? He didn't have faith anymore, because the doubt was gone. The inverse is that as long as there's some level of doubt then faith is required. That actually makes a lot of sense with my other ways on thinking on faith. I believe faith is more akin too unknowing commitment, trust, and loyalty than it is to just sheer belief. Commitment without sure knowledge. At least that's how I have to reconcile it with various scriptures. Alternatively I can reconcile it by accepting that when the word faith is used by different authors there are some semantic differences. In certain ideas of the word faith never goes away even with sure knowledge. But in other senses of it, like the above, it does. Anyhow, I actually can't fully reconcile my thinking on the matter with everything said about faith from every church or scriptural source. And I'm not sure I need to. But what I thunk up last night on the matter I felt was an interesting insight at least. dprh, Vort and MrShorty 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dprh Posted August 31, 2021 Report Share Posted August 31, 2021 29 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: I can reconcile it by accepting that when the word faith is used by different authors there are some semantic differences. In certain ideas of the word faith never goes away even with sure knowledge. But in other senses of it, like the above, it does. I can remember at least three lessons I've been in where we talked about faith and thinking similar ideas. It always seems that we want to come up with one overarching definition for something. Sometimes a word or idea can mean different things to different people at different times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDSGator Posted August 31, 2021 Report Share Posted August 31, 2021 (edited) My personal favorite quote on doubt: Edited August 31, 2021 by LDSGator dprh and MrShorty 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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