What in Sam Hill is the Point of there Being an LDS Church at All?


clbent04
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2 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

The idea that God may deliberately withhold a spiritual confirmation from someone because their calling is to do a work that requires them to be out of the Church for a while (possibly, eg, Thomas Kane, John Paul II, etc), is an intriguing one.  But as a general rule, knowing that light cleaveth to light and whatnot . . . I’m thinking that someone who isn’t at least a little intrigued at the shreds of Mormonism that come their way, probably hasn’t yet grown into the sort of trajectory that defines a Celestial person.  

My personal opinion is there are a lot of misconceptions about how righteous non-members are supposed to find the Truth, almost as if it's as simply as having them read Joseph's Smith First Vision and WALA!  I don't think it's that simple. 

For some, maybe it is that simple, but when you take into consideration how many religions out there claiming to have the truth, and that the LDS Church is one among many, non-members can be open to the truth while as the same time being cautious to not blindly accept just anything.

That's not always something easy to balance as we as members of the Church know ourselves as we seek additional truth and light.

Edited by clbent04
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13 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Perhaps you've heard that the majority of the work for the dead will be done in the millennium.

https://emp.byui.edu/SATTERFIELDB/Quotes/Millennium/Work for the Dead.html

I have heard that, but making the connection that all ordinances must be performed by mortals on Earth seems a bit of stretch for me when relating it to D&C 128's "whatsoever you do not record on earth shall not be recorded in heaven"

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59 minutes ago, Vort said:

I do not have a dividing line. I trust that God understands who has rejected his invitation and who has yet to make that decision.

Which brings me to my point that I don't think we as members of the Church can say that the Church and its ordinances have no reason to exist if living a faithful, covenant keeping LDS life isn't requisite to enter into the Celestial Kingdom.

Edited by clbent04
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3 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I have heard that, but making the connection that all ordinances must be performed by mortals on Earth seems a bit of stretch for me when relating it to D&C 128's "whatsoever you do not record on earth shall not be recorded in heaven"

Well, you seem to have this -- we can't really know anything that's said or taught -- approach to the gospel. Seems an odd way to approach the gospel to me. But to each their own.

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3 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I have often wondered if I hadn't been born into the Church if I would have struggled to accept it or if I'd even entertain considering it. It's a difficult premise because I know I'm quite pigheaded on my faith in the gospel. But........ that pigheaded faith is concretely based on spiritual experiences. So I don't explore Scientology or...the Jehovah Witnesses or what-have-you because I already know what I know and that knowledge precludes (or, perhaps excludes) the possibility that other churches could be the correct path back to God.

But....I was taught to think that way! I was taught by my mother and primary teachers and in seminary, etc., etc. that we pray to know the truth directly from God via the Spirit and that it is from the Spirit and the Spirit alone we can know the truth of the gospel.

But.... what if I hadn't been taught that?

I don't know. Would I be as pigheaded in something that, having been taught what I was, doesn't make sense to me, but maybe would had I been taught differently? How much of my reasoning on the matter is a mere product of what I was taught?

That being said...I fully outright reject a lot of what I was taught in, say...college, about, say....music theory... so that implies there might be some independent thinking there, right? But it's not exactly the same thing as core beliefs that were drilled into me from diaper day one.

So I tend towards being forgiving....while also staying pigheaded? It's a real conundrum of an existence I guess.

This is a large factor to my own questioning on what God will ultimately decide is the dividing line between those who are to be extended a chance to accept the gospel via baptism of the dead versus those who have already had a sufficient chance in this life to accept it.

Many of us, myself included, don't know what it's like to grow up in a Baptist, Muslim, Buddhist household.  To read it on paper is one thing.  But to live it is another.  People tend to dedicate their lives to religion not because of what's on paper, but because of what they feel and experience within that religion.  It's the intangible that keeps members committed to their faiths.

I have no idea how I would have taken to another religion had I grown up in a different household.  And none of us can say for sure what kind of impact that would have on allowing us to see the LDS gospel for what it is if we had of grown up as non-members. 

Edited by clbent04
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18 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Well, you seem to have this -- we can't really know anything that's said or taught -- approach to the gospel. Seems an odd way to approach the gospel to me. But to each their own.

I've questioned how much of the gospel can we truly rely on as unchanging and immovable since the history of the Church proves that the Church is not immune to change, and, in fact, is designed to embrace change in some cases; but in this case I just don't see how "recording on earth" equals all Church ordinances must be performed on Earth by mortals.

Edited by clbent04
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25 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Which brings me to my point that I don't think we as members of the Church can say that the Church and its ordinances have no reason to exist if living a faithful, covenant keeping LDS life isn't requisite to enter into the Celestial Kingdom.

There are many in and out of the Restored Church who agree with your philosophy of "eat, drink, ang be merry, for tomorrow we die, and it shall be well with us." Interestingly, those many people appear not to include the prophets of God, who consistently warn otherwise.

Being born in the covenant of your parents' marriage, or its equivalent, is absolutely necessary to inherit eternal life. Accepting and living by the covenants of the gospel as found in the Restored Church, or its equivalent, is absolutely  necessary to inherit eternal life. Living a faithful life of integrity and honor, or its equivalent, is absolutely necessary to inherit eternal life.

Your argument that we really shouldn't prize covenant-keeping Saints so much because, after all, most people aren't covenant-keeping Saints but God still loves them and seeks their redemption, is ultimately unconvincing. The doctrine you proclaim  is not what the scriptures or the prophets teach.

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46 minutes ago, Vort said:

There are many in and out of the Restored Church who agree with your philosophy of "eat, drink, ang be merry, for tomorrow we die, and it shall be well with us." Interestingly, those many people appear not to include the prophets of God, who consistently warn otherwise.

Questioning where the dividing line is on who will be receiving a chance in the life hereafter to accept the gospel is hardly related to embracing the carefree attitude of "eat, drink, ang be merry, for tomorrow we die"

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18 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Questioning where the dividing line is on who will be receiving a chance in the life hereafter to accept the gospel is hardly related to embracing the carefree attitude of "eat, drink, ang be merry, for tomorrow we die"

@clbent04, how can we, or you, or anyone else know "where the dividing line is"? We can't. We all agree on that point. But your argument is not merely that we can't decide when someone has had sufficient opportunity to accept the gospel; rather, you seem to be saying that our beliefs and doctrine about the importance of membership in God's kingdom are to be called into question. This is simply false. Those who are saved must necessarily be denizens of God's kingdom. There is no other way; indeed, the very meaning of the word "salvation" demands this.

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16 hours ago, clbent04 said:

To further qualify how I'm using the term “Celestial”, I consider charity and love to be the defining characteristics of what qualifies someone for the Celestial Kingdom regardless of the what religion they claimed here on Earth. 

If a Methodist lived a faithful life with just as much love and charity in his heart as the faithful Mormon, one is not necessarily better off than the other in terms of their eternal salvation.

It’s my opinion that anyone of Celestial caliber independent of their religion on Earth will naturally accept the gospel whenever the Holy Spirit presents them with their chance to accept it. 

For it to constitute as an official chance to accept the gospel, it must be received as God-given knowledge that the gospel is true, knowledge that was testified by the Holy Spirit to be true and could not be refuted in good conscience. 

In most cases, I don’t consider a pair of missionaries knocking on your door to qualify as what constitutes your chance to accept the gospel.

I think your definition of what qualifies a person for the Celestial kingdom is far too narrow in it's scope to correctly understanding who and how people arrive there. I think this is a clearer perspective.

D&C 88:36 All kingdoms have a law given;
37 And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom.
38 And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions.
39 All beings who abide not in those conditions are not justified.

To qualify for the Celestial kingdom you simply must abide the laws of that kingdom. Any willing to abide those laws will qualify and all will have the same opportunity to choose. I think judgement day will be far less about God telling us where to go and more of us deciding, after a thorough review of our life, which kingdom's laws we are willing to obey. 

Having said that Alma 42 makes it clear that our attitudes aren't going to suddenly change in the spirit world and I think our obedience to the light we did possess in this life will likely be a pretty good indicator of which kingdom's laws we are willing to accept in the next. That light consists of the light of Christ (given to all in general), the power of the Holy Ghost (before baptism), and the gift of the Holy Ghost (upon confirmation). Some of the most important truths we will be measured by come to us through the light of Christ. So whether we are offered the fullness of the gospel in this life or not, there will still be plenty to gauge the measure of a person and to reveal our true natures.

Now concerning those who qualify for exaltation, if the glory of the Celestial to the Terrestrial (future home to many of the honorable on earth) is like the sun and moon in comparison then we should expect an equal disparity between the obedience to law required for admission, for all blessings come by obedience to some law. 

The Church meanwhile is the vehicle the Lord uses to teach the necessary doctrine and administer the necessary ordinances to help prepare us to obey those laws and the Church's role continues into the spirit world where prophets and apostles continue the directing of this work leading up to judgment day. Those ordained to preach the gospel in this life will continue to administer to those who haven't had a full opportunity to accept it. The ordinances, which must be performed in the flesh, are then administered within the Church in this world on their behalf, the temple being the bridge between the two.

Sorry for the long post but the answers to these questions deserve some depth and yet I feel it's only scratched the surface.

Edited by laronius
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This topic reminds me of a complaint I hear from some long time church members, who had lived as faithfully as they could.  Then they meet a new convert who lived a very worldly life and converted later in life.  Like the 'Good' son of the Prodigal son or the 1st hour labors complain about things being unfair.

Thing is I really never hear the new convert say... I am so glad I was unconverted for so long, nor do we hear the Prodigal Son praise how wise and how glad he was that he rebelled and went of to party.  They usually have some level of regret for past actions when they come/return to the light.

The Book of Mormon talks about living after the manor of happiness, aka living the gospel.  And the scriptures also say that "Wickedness, Never was happiness"  Thus per the scripture the closer we live to gospel truths the happier we will be. (Which is not the same as saying trial free)

Please also note I said Living Gospel Truths.. Thus someone outside the church could be happily living a lot of truth.  But if we truly believe we have the restored gospel and restored church, then that means we have maximum available Gospel Truths, and therefore maximum possible happiness, but people have to live it, not just claim membership.

 

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12 hours ago, clbent04 said:

 I just don't see how "recording on earth" equals all Church ordinances must be performed on Earth by mortals.

Did you actually read all the other materials I posted? It's actually pretty plain from many sources that ordinances must be done by us for the dead or they are lost.

This is such a basic church teaching I'm surprised that you're not very familiar with it.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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12 hours ago, clbent04 said:

I've questioned how much of the gospel can we truly rely on as unchanging and immovable since the history of the Church proves that the Church is not immune to change, and, in fact, is designed to embrace change in some cases;

So you make the claim that you think that charity is the key to exaltation -- but where did you get that idea from? And why is whatever source you're taking that from any more reliable than the sources you reject. You seem to be picking and choosing which things you'll accept as correct and true and which things you'll question based on nothing but your feelings about whatever subject. If we all did that.....welcome to the Great Apostasy 2.0.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

Please also note I said Living Gospel Truths.. Thus someone outside the church could be happily living a lot of truth.  But if we truly believe we have the restored gospel and restored church, then that means we have maximum available Gospel Truths, and therefore maximum possible happiness, but people have to live it, not just claim membership.

With what you wrote here, if you replaced "happiness" with "fulfillment", I could subscribe to that.

I don't think the equally wholesome, positive, non-member family is experiencing happiness in a different way that the member family experiences happiness.  Where is your extra happiness coming from?  Those moments you sat in the Celestial room whereas your non-member counterparts weren't?  If you look back at your life and reflect on your happiest moments, do you think you're happy moments trump non-members' happy moments?  

Edited by clbent04
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12 hours ago, Vort said:

Being born in the covenant of your parents' marriage, or its equivalent, is absolutely necessary to inherit eternal life. Accepting and living by the covenants of the gospel as found in the Restored Church, or its equivalent, is absolutely  necessary to inherit eternal life. Living a faithful life of integrity and honor, or its equivalent, is absolutely necessary to inherit eternal life.

If this were the case, what's the point in doing baptisms for the dead?  Do you suppose that these proxy baptisms don't allow individuals the chance to enter into the Celestial Kingdom?

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11 hours ago, Vort said:

you seem to be saying that our beliefs and doctrine about the importance of membership in God's kingdom are to be called into question

Nowhere have a stated something like this.  I think you might be incorrectly inferring this assumption of yours with what I have written, but I don't have an angle here questioning the importance of active membership in the Church. 

I'm stating active membership in the Church in this life is important for the salvation of those of us who have received God-given knowledge that the Church is true

I don't agree that those who haven't discovered the Church in this life are automatically cut off from their chance at entering into the Celestial Kingdom; ergo, I don't believe it's necessary to live your life as an LDS member to enter into the Celestial Kingdom. 

Why else would we be doing baptisms for the dead if not to extend our fellow brothers and sisters the same chance we had to accept the gospel and enter into the Celestial Kingdom?

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20 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

With what you wrote here, if you replaced "happiness" with "fulfillment", I could subscribe to that.

I don't think the equally wholesome, positive, non-member family is experiencing happiness in a different way that the member family experiences happiness.  Where is your extra happiness coming from?  Those moments you sat in the Celestial room whereas your non-member counterparts weren't?  If you look back at your life and reflect on your happiest moments, do you think you're happy moments trump non-members' happy moments?  

I do not care if you subscribe to it or not... The scriptures use the term Happiness.

And it would really help if you read what I wrote.  Living the Gospel truths brings happiness...  Not being a church member. They are not the same thing.  A Non church member Living the Gospel truths will be happy, as happy as a church member living it the same amount.  The Point of the Church is "More Gospel truths" which you can not get anywhere else.  Living more Gospel Truths (not just knowing) brings More Happiness.

Thus the church offers an increased in happiness, if you live the Gospel Truths it teaches.  But note the conditional, just being a member is not enough.    

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1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

So you make the claim that you think that charity is the key to exaltation -- but where did you get that idea from? And why is whatever source you're taking that from any more reliable than the sources you reject. You seem to be picking and choosing which things you'll accept as correct and true and which things you'll question based on nothing but your feelings about whatever subject. If we all did that.....welcome to the Great Apostasy 2.0.

I didn't say charity is the key to exaltation. I said it is a defining characteristic

Edited by clbent04
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7 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

I do not care if you subscribe to it or not... The scriptures use the term Happiness.

Wickedness never bringing happiness does not equal righteousness in one particular religion brings elevated happiness above all other non-members

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1 minute ago, clbent04 said:

Wickedness never bringing happiness does not equal righteousness in one particular religion brings elevated happiness above all other non-members

I see no reason to continue talking to you... until you start showing sign you can understand what I wrote... rather then use it as a pretext to flog your hobby horse.

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4 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

I see no reason to continue talking to you... until you start showing sign you can understand what I wrote... rather then use it as a pretext to flog your hobby horse.

I understand what you wrote, I just don't agree with it.

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13 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Wickedness never bringing happiness does not equal righteousness in one particular religion brings elevated happiness above all other non-members

It is important to remember that happiness is complex. I’ve known many faithful LDS who are depressed and I’ve net many non members who are incredibly happy. So on this part only, I do understand your concerns. I think. 

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