What in Sam Hill is the Point of there Being an LDS Church at All?


clbent04
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On 9/2/2021 at 6:12 PM, clbent04 said:

This is to continue a discussion from another thread that I was having with @Just_A_Guy

My personal interpretation of the gospel: Before God reveals us the Truth, we are not penalized for rejecting it; and once He does reveal it, He always does it in such an unambiguous and even overpowering way virtually no one who lived a life of Celestial caliber will reject it.

Is their still a need for the LDS Church if being a member in your mortal life is not required to make it to the Celestial Kingdom?

@Just_A_Guy  

If we consider a non-member who lives a life worthy enough to be admitted to the Celestial Kingdom upon eventually accepting the gospel for what it is, the fact they made it to the highest Kingdom without living as an LDS member on Earth shouldn't discourage us into thinking the gospel isn't as important as it is.  

It should further validate the truth that God is a merciful and just God who is mindful of all His children, and how we are unable to comprehend even a small fraction of the many moving pieces involved or the many beautiful reunions that await us.

The Church at the very least entails preparing the earth for the Second Coming of Christ in a very tangible way. This of course involves her leaders exercising the keys that bind heaven and earth, and the members on both sides of the veil availing themselves of those benefits. There will be no need for the earthly kingdom in mortality (which estate continues in the spirit world right up to the resurrection) after the Final Judgement. 

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On 9/2/2021 at 10:33 PM, clbent04 said:
On 9/2/2021 at 9:54 PM, Vort said:

I do not have a dividing line. I trust that God understands who has rejected his invitation and who has yet to make that decision.

Which brings me to my point that I don't think we as members of the Church can say that the Church and its ordinances have no reason to exist if living a faithful, covenant keeping LDS life isn't requisite to enter into the Celestial Kingdom.

I don't have a bright, crisp line but I do have some mile markers I use when reflecting on my own life -- a sort of vision of what the "eternal life" person looks like.

  • they receive the testimony of Jesus

  • they believe on his name

  • they  are baptized in the proper manner according Jesus' commandment

  • they keep the commandments (including the ordinances) that they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins

  • they receive the Holy Spirit in the proper manner and by the proper authority

  • they overcome by faith

  • they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise

Yes, it includes making and keeping covenants offered through the vehicle of Jesus Christ's church.

Edited by mordorbund
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I have come to the conclusion that if we take any eternal principle relevant to the Plan of Salvation and think to understand it only considering our mortal experience - nothing will make sense.  In order to understand G-d's Plan of Salvation it is necessary to have a perspective that includes a pre-existence, mortal experience and a spiritual afterlife that all must proceed preparations for what is called "The Final Judgment" or "Resurrection".  Note that I have linked the final judgment with the resurrection as though they are the same event.  I will not argue that they are the exact same event but that they are tightly coupled or linked and cannot take place separately.   

Here are some scriptures from the D&C that I think apply:

Quote

Doctrine and Convenience 138:55

55 I observed that they were also among the noble and great ones who were chosen in the beginning to be rulers in the Church of God.

 

Doctrine and Convenience 101

78 That every man may act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity, according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment.

 

Doctrine and Convenience 123

12 For there are many yet on the earth among all sects, parties, and denominations, who are blinded by the subtle craftiness of men, whereby they lie in wait to deceive, and who are only kept from the truth because they know not where to find it—

13 Therefore, that we should waste and wear out our lives in bringing to light all the hidden things of darkness, wherein we know them; and they are truly manifest from heaven—

14 These should then be attended to with great earnestness.

15 Let no man count them as small things; for there is much which lieth in futurity, pertaining to the saints, which depends upon these things.

16 You know, brethren, that a very large ship is benefited very much by a very small helm in the time of a storm, by being kept workways with the wind and the waves.

17 Therefore, dearly beloved brethren, let us cheerfully do all things that lie in our power; and then may we stand still, with the utmost assurance, to see the salvation of God, and for his arm to be revealed.

 

Doctrine and Convenience 130

18 Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.

19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

 

Doctrine and Convenience 93

31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.

 

It is my personal conclusion that the Plan of Salvation must include more elements than our mortal experience - but let us not for a moment discount the importance that we each as individuals obtain from our mortal experience.  And so this particular phrase quoted from above means much:  "Therefore, dearly beloved brethren, let us cheerfully do all things that lie in our power; and then may we stand still, with the utmost assurance, to see the salvation of God, and for his arm to be revealed."

 

The Traveler

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On 9/3/2021 at 6:54 PM, Vort said:

Those who "lived a life of Celestial caliber" normally have done so after hearing the gospel preached to them.

Do you think most members within the Church believe similarly?  I really don't know where the general consensus would fall. 

What I do know, and setting aside the truthfulness of the gospel, is it's human nature to think the organizations you belong to are superior to the organizations of others.  This is just as much true with religion as it is with sports, politics, schools and citizenship.

Do you think your statement could be subject to this type of human nature where it unintentionally leads you to make an overstatement?  

You could fully stand by your statement, and that's fine if you do, but the reason why I think it's an overstatement is because it discredits the righteous progress achieved by nonmembers in this life.  Just because these nonmembers aren't on the optimal, gospel path, doesn't mean God is going to discredit the love they've developed.

Will nonmembers eventually have to accept the gospel for what it is once it's extended to them to accept?  Of course.  But how hard is that going to be for the elect among us who have proven to live their lives primarily by love?

Considering the very small percentage that LDS members represent of this world's population (1 out of 500 people), I believe most of God's children who are fortunate enough to enter into the Celestial Kingdom will be doing so via accepting the invitation by baptism of the dead. 

To suggest that the elect among us aren't spread out in every corner of this world strikes me as blatantly false considering my own experiences and observations in this world.

Edited by clbent04
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I didn't read all the posts, so my apologies if this is already covered, but the church's goal is not to convert the world.  Yes, it would be nice.  but really, the church's goal is to prepare the Earth for the Second Coming of Christ, so the church needs to be a global entity, with enough reach to bring as many to Christ as it can.  I suspect we need to wait until the communist countries open up before the work will be finished.

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Hoping both @Just_A_Guy and @Vort can weigh in here on these two perspectives because this is ultimately what I was trying to address in this tread.

On 9/3/2021 at 6:54 PM, Vort said:

Those who "lived a life of Celestial caliber" normally have done so after hearing the gospel preached to them.

On 9/7/2021 at 9:34 AM, clbent04 said:

Do you think most members within the Church believe similarly?  I really don't know where the general consensus would fall. 

What I do know, and setting aside the truthfulness of the gospel, is it's human nature to think the organizations you belong to are superior to the organizations of others.  This is just as much true with religion as it is with sports, politics, schools and citizenship.

Do you think your statement could be subject to this type of human nature where it unintentionally leads you to make an overstatement?  

You could fully stand by your statement, and that's fine if you do, but the reason why I think it's an overstatement is because it discredits the righteous progress achieved by nonmembers in this life.  Just because these nonmembers aren't on the optimal, gospel path, doesn't mean God is going to discredit the love they've developed.

Will nonmembers eventually have to accept the gospel for what it is once it's extended to them to accept?  Of course.  But how hard is that going to be for the elect among us who have proven to live their lives primarily by love?

Considering the very small percentage that LDS members represent of this world's population (1 out of 500 people), I believe most of God's children who are fortunate enough to enter into the Celestial Kingdom will be doing so via accepting the invitation by baptism of the dead. 

To suggest that the elect among us aren't spread out in every corner of this world strikes me as blatantly false considering my own experiences and observations in this world.

 

Edited by clbent04
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So, this is a long thread that I haven't followed closely (family camping trip the last couple of days).  So, @clbent04, I'll throw out some random thoughts that occurred to me as I perused the thread this evening; and maybe they'll be useful, or maybe they'll just be illogical rantings.  :)   

I also want to note that it seems to me that you've been very tentative  and vague in some of your questions/inferences in this thread.  Some other folks seem to have read you as suggesting either a) that a person can, with some degree of scienter, deliberately reject opportunities to enter into covenants with God throughout their mortality and yet still claim exaltation at some point thereafter; or b) that it is unnecessary for an exalted person to have received their saving ordinances, either in person or by proxy, prior to the Resurrection.  Frankly, I don't read you as alleging either of those things--and I'm not sure if it's because I've been reading you very closely, or not closely enough!  Either way--I'll respond to some of those ideas, but please don't interpret me as posing straw-men if that wasn't what you intended to suggest. 

With that said . . . here goes:

1)  I don't know that, in these sorts of discussions, it's very helpful to talk about what a "good Baptist" or "good Methodist" or "good Buddhist" or "good Muslim" was.  Religion--other than our religion--is, to a significant degree, man-made; and in many cases is so inextricably tied up with local culture/peer pressure that I'm not sure a person's loyalty to their chosen religion is an eternally significant indicator as to what kind of eternal reward someone is going to receive.

2)  Similarly, I would agree with those who have pointed out that it's not particularly helpful to get wrapped up in a person's deeds/works in these kinds of decisions.  

3)  I would also beware about over-emphasizing trite platitudes about charity or "wuuuuuuv"; particularly as the concept has been bastardized and perverted in the last fifty years.  

4)  The seminal scriptural texts here, I think, are D&C 76 (cited by @mordorbund), D&C 88 (cited by @laronius), and perhaps also D&C 130.  Then-Elder Oaks's "The Challenge to Become", I think, is also crucial in getting a proper perspective on these sorts of issues.  Again, these scriptures seem to say relatively little about institutional religious devotion; and they don't come off to me as being either legalistically works-based or being rooted in hippie-dippie notions of "charity".  Taken together, I think the scripture and Elder Oaks point to a set of "judging criteria" that focuses primarily on the nature of the relationship that we have formed with Jesus Christ, the ability we have cultivated to hear Him, what we have become already, what we are willing to become further under His tutelage, and what we are willing to give up.  

5)  The covenant path--the commitments and liturgies associated with what we call the "saving ordinances"--are a sine qua non for exaltation, full stop.  They are non-negotiable.  They have to be made, whether in person or by proxy.  No other current institution has the divine authority to administer those ordinances.  The quantity and depth of Church teaching on this (as exposed in part by @The Folk Prophet) and the tremendous sacrifices the Church has historically made to make this teaching a reality, is staggering and--to my mind--not up for debate.

6)  In the priesthood ordinances, the power of godliness is made manifest.  In the ordinances, we receive (or become eligible to receive) endowments of spiritual power that can magnify and enhance every virtue, give power to every endeavor, and fundamentally change our lives.  We can also receive these ordinances and thereafter fail to live up to the privileges associated with them.  It seems that significant proportion of Church members fall under this category--I know I do.  

7)  Nobody on this earth is a finished project.  The finished project is Godhood; and the most amazing, godly person any of us has ever met in person is a tiny speck compared to the dazzling light of exaltation that may one day be attained through atonement and full reconciliation with Christ Jesus.  In this sense, then, no one is living a "celestial caliber" at any point in their mortal life.  I can't look at anyone and think "yeah, he's made it." 

Similarly--and harking back to point 6) above--the question is not whether John Q. Non-Mormon seems to be living a more "celestial caliber" life than Jane Z. Mormon.  The question is how much more awesome John Q. Non-Mormon would be at this moment if he had access to the same wells of divine power--the same promise of potential--that we in the Church do.  I am satisfied that--as I think it was @estradling75 who suggested it--those who were denied access to that power in life will wistfully reflect on how much better mortality would have been if they'd had that power; even if only in an Alma-esque, "I do sin in my wish, for I ought to be content with the things which the Lord hath allotted to me" sort of way.  I don't see anyone in the eternities saying "geez, sure glad I dodged that 'Mormonism' bullet, 'cause paying tithing woulda sucked!"

8 )  Are the saving covenants/ordinances required for salvation as well as exaltation?  I don't know.  Is there progression between the kingdoms that renders the difference between "salvation" and "exaltation" moot in the long run?  Again, I don't know.  These questions add a layer of complexity to what we've been talking about.  I've also grown up with the paradigm that proxy temple work is of absolutely no benefit to people who rejected the Gospel in this life; which had always led me to the conclusion (which I'm sort of revisiting now, but I haven't abandoned at this point) that a person who receives a Terrestrial or Telestial inheritance does it independently of any priesthood authority that the LDS Church currently possesses (and has the ability to receive limited ministrations from the Holy Ghost even in their unbaptized state).  

So, if the Catholics or the Presbyterians or even the Shintos can bring a person to the Terrestrial Kingdom just fine, it seems to me that the LDS Church's raison d'etre is to do what the other churches can't--to point out the path to exaltation for those people who want to follow it, and to facilitate the liturgical work for the living and dead who want to go down that path.  There may be some incidental material benefits--supportive communities of fellow believers, cheap food storage, ridiculously economical academic degrees, and the like--but fundamentally that's not what make us, us.  I believe it is in our acknowledgment of the quest for exaltation and our ability to orient people on that quest, that fundamentally defines us as a Church; and if we fail to do that, we make ourselves institutionally expendable as far as the Lord is concerned.  

 

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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21 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Some other folks seem to have read you as suggesting either a) that a person can, with some degree of scienter, deliberately reject opportunities to enter into covenants with God throughout their mortality and yet still claim exaltation at some point thereafter; or b) that it is unnecessary for an exalted person to have received their saving ordinances, either in person or by proxy, prior to the Resurrection.  Frankly, I don't read you as alleging either of those things--and I'm not sure if it's because I've been reading you very closely, or not closely enough! 

I sometimes get lasered focused on what I'm specifically trying to discuss in a topic, and when someone misreads what I write either for my lack of ability to accurately convey my thoughts or the reader's lack of ability to understand, I sometimes have trouble figuring out how to get back on the same page when it seems like they're interested in responding to me about anything but the original point I was trying to discuss.

21 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

1)  I don't know that, in these sorts of discussions, it's very helpful to talk about what a "good Baptist" or "good Methodist" or "good Buddhist" or "good Muslim" was.  Religion--other than our religion--is, to a significant degree, man-made; and in many cases is so inextricably tied up with local culture/peer pressure that I'm not sure a person's loyalty to their chosen religion is an eternally significant indicator as to what kind of eternal reward someone is going to receive.

I'm primarily addressing the good that nonmembers develop within themselves outside of the Church whether or not their righteous development was influenced by religion. My main argument I'm interested in discussing is I believe most of God's children who are fortunate enough to enter into the Celestial Kingdom will be doing so via accepting the invitation by baptism of the dead, whereas I think you and @Vort might disagree (something I'd really like to vet further with you guys).

21 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

3)  I would also beware about over-emphasizing trite platitudes about charity or "wuuuuuuv"; particularly as the concept has been bastardized and perverted in the last fifty years.  

When I talk about love as a metric to get an idea of where everyone stands in their development on this Earth both inside and outside the Church, I'm using it in the sense of how much love we have for our fellow man.

21 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Taken together, I think the scripture and Elder Oaks point to a set of "judging criteria" that focuses primarily on the nature of the relationship that we have formed with Jesus Christ, the ability we have cultivated to hear Him, what we have become already, what we are willing to become further under His tutelage, and what we are willing to give up.  

Well said.  Nicely worded and more comprehensive than my simplistic term of "love" as the defining characteristic for the elect among us.  It's my belief that a very high correlation exists between the judging criteria you described here and how much love someone has developed for their fellow man.  Obviously not a perfect correlation, but a high correlation.  I've written everything I have in this thread with this as my understanding.

21 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

5)  The covenant path--the commitments and liturgies associated with what we call the "saving ordinances"--are a sine qua non for exaltation, full stop.  They are non-negotiable.  They have to be made, whether in person or by proxy.  No other current institution has the divine authority to administer those ordinances.  The quantity and depth of Church teaching on this (as exposed in part by @The Folk Prophet) and the tremendous sacrifices the Church has historically made to make this teaching a reality, is staggering and--to my mind--not up for debate.

Agreed.

21 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

7)  Nobody on this earth is a finished project.  The finished project is Godhood; and the most amazing, godly person any of us has ever met in person is a tiny speck compared to the dazzling light of exaltation that may one day be attained through atonement and full reconciliation with Christ Jesus.  In this sense, then, no one is living a "celestial caliber" at any point in their mortal life.  I can't look at anyone and think "yeah, he's made it." 

I'm not using the term "celestial caliber" in the sense of one's calling and election made sure, but rather one who is on the right path towards eternal life and who is noticeably developed in their ability to love others.

Edited by clbent04
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17 hours ago, clbent04 said:

.....

I'm not using the term "celestial caliber" in the sense of one's calling and election made sure, but rather one who is on the right path towards eternal life and who is noticeably developed in their ability to love others.

I thought to respond to this thought of "Celestial Caliber".  It was drilled into me as a youth that a person is not accomplished by that which is done when it does not matter but rather that which is done despite all else that does not matter.  For example - a kind person is not defined as someone that is kind to friends.  To friends, kindness does not matter as much.  Therefore a kind person is kind to their enemies.  Such kindness matters because it is so rare and different.

The only one that I can even imagine that qualifies as "Celestial Caliber" is Christ who sacrificed his "Celestial" standing and acquired or achieved possessions mostly for those that would never appreciate his gift to take advantage of it or accept it.  Most of a religious stripe do so for what they think is their benefit - their  salvation - their  forgiveness, their attainments of glory that they may acquire heaven and live in blissful relationship with G-d.  And if they make any motions towards others it is because they expect to be greatly rewarded for it.  Sometime I wonder if an the kindness of a atheist is more Christ like than a standard Christian.   Whenever I have had a discussion about what is required to obtain heaven - that most think that they are quire sure they qualify and are equally quite sure they know of others that do not qualify - so they ought to condemn them for their shortcomings. 

I am sure I am obligated to treat all others with kindness - especially my enemies - but I cannot possibly see much logic that I will ever benefit for such.  It seems that the more I think myself Christ like --- the more it is evidence that I am not so much as what I think I am.

My only hope is that when it come to the final judgment - that G-d will be most merciful to all those that obviously fell short of being "Celestial Caliber".  If not - I of all, will not make it.  But I do have hope that anyone that lives with hope in this life will have hope at that day.  In the meantime - I plan to do all I possibly can and recommend all others do so as well.  That we all hope and pray for mercy especially for all that hope and pray for mercy.

 

The Traveler

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3 minutes ago, Traveler said:

My only hope is that when it come to the final judgment - that G-d will be most merciful to all those that obviously fell short of being "Celestial Caliber".  If not - I of all, will not make it.  But I do have hope that anyone that lives with hope in this life will have hope at that day.  In the meantime - I plan to do all I possibly can and recommend all others do so as well.  That we all hope and pray for mercy especially for all that hope and pray for mercy.

The Traveler

Over the years my view of the judgment has significantly changed. I see it more as being ready to live a Celestial lifestyle. I believe Christ will look past our weaknesses to see the core of our souls and he will judge whether we have developed a sincere desire and ability to live as His Father lives. Where we have been (our sins) won't matter anymore, it's where are we prepared to go that will matter.

Unfortunately, I think there are many people who really don't enjoy or value the principles of Eternal living. They wouldn't be comfortable in that degree of glory. They will be blessed with happiness and joy in another kingdom of glory where they are comfortable.

So what is the purpose of the Church? To assist God's children in learning the principles of Eternal Life, and to help them receive the blessings associated with the covenants and ordinances of salvation as soon as they are ready to receive them. Just my 2cents.

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3 hours ago, clwnuke said:

Over the years my view of the judgment has significantly changed. I see it more as being ready to live a Celestial lifestyle. I believe Christ will look past our weaknesses to see the core of our souls and he will judge whether we have developed a sincere desire and ability to live as His Father lives. Where we have been (our sins) won't matter anymore, it's where are we prepared to go that will matter.

Unfortunately, I think there are many people who really don't enjoy or value the principles of Eternal living. They wouldn't be comfortable in that degree of glory. They will be blessed with happiness and joy in another kingdom of glory where they are comfortable.

So what is the purpose of the Church? To assist God's children in learning the principles of Eternal Life, and to help them receive the blessings associated with the covenants and ordinances of salvation as soon as they are ready to receive them. Just my 2cents.

I have wondered if at the final judgment that G-d will open the heavens and let us each see the Celestial Kingdom and all it entails - and them many Latter-day Saints (and others) will look on in disappointment and say, "I paid tithing , made temple covenants, attended church all my life and endured the hardships of being a Saint for this?"  And then G-d in his mercy will show another kingdom with the question - "Perhaps this is more to your liking and a Kingdom of Glory that better fits your expectations.  And the response will be - "Oh this is much better.  Thanks  so much - this is what much better for me."

 

The Traveler

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@Traveler Yep!  I can hear some of them now when the heavens are opened saying - "Oh my, you let clwnuke into the Celestial Kingdom?? You blew that judgement. He hated cats, listened to disco music, snored at church, and had a secret picture of Jaclyn Smith in his wallet. No way I'm going in there!".

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4 minutes ago, clwnuke said:

@Traveler Yep!  I can hear some of them now when the heavens are opened saying - "Oh my, you let clwnuke into the Celestial Kingdom?? You blew that judgement. He hated cats, listened to disco music, snored at church, and had a secret picture of Jaclyn Smith in his wallet. No way I'm going in there!".

I do not think you have much of an idea of things that can be done to tick others off?   As a side note - many years ago the Stakes of Provo put on an 4th of July celebration with a show at the BYU stadium.  As a teenager my friends and I were asked to sleep in the stadium to guard the expensive lighting and sound equipment.  Good thing no one tried to take anything - especially for us - we were all dear hunters and armed to the teeth. 

 

The Traveler

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Just now, Traveler said:

I do not think you have much of an idea of things that can be done to tick others off?   As a side note - many years ago the Stakes of Provo put on an 4th of July celebration with a show at the BYU stadium.  As a teenager my friends and I were asked to sleep in the stadium to guard the expensive lighting and sound equipment.  Good thing no one tried to take anything - especially for us - we were all dear hunters and armed to the teeth. 

 

The Traveler

A man of gunpowder, lead, and arms! I like you already.

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