Trying to have spiritual experiences


Fether
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I was listening to the “All In”  Podcast today and in i, the person being interviewed tells the story about how she wouldn’t read the Book of Mormon all the way through because she was scared of not having a spiritual experience confirming to her the truth of it.

It got me thinking about the whole deal of people being confused as to why they don’t have these spiritual and emotional reactions to praying to know the truth of the Book of Mormon, or going to the temple, getting sealed in the temple, watching their child give birth, saying prayer, bearing testimony, and so on.

I wonder if we can compare it to when someone stresses about having too high of a pulse. That feeling caused by the desire is preventing the desire. We see the same in sales. If someone is struggling the sell and aren’t making money, stress sets in and that stress is visible by the person they are trying to sell to and then the cycle continues.

So a couple questions I’ll pose:

- Does the church (in its publications or from its leaders) encourage specific spiritual experiences? Like to feel overwhelmed by the spirit, or feel peace when we read scriptures, particularly Moroni 10:3-5?

- Are we culturally encouraged to have these experiences? Is this bad?

- Can we expect to have these experiences?

- Does God really speak to us all differently?

- Are we better off seeking after righteousness and just letting spiritual experiences come? Or should we be seeking spiritual experiences?


So far, I feel like we need to stop seeking these experiences and just focus on more tangible things we can control. Like seeking truth, doing good, studying scripture, prayer, fasting and developing Christlike attributes. Those experiences with the spirit are not essential, and may not even be necessary for some. The goal of the gospel is not to feel the spirit, it’s to become like our savior.

thoughts?

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I'm confident that the Lord will give spiritual experiences in His time to those who are genuinely seeking to live righteous lives and build up His Kingdom. People seeking after spiritual experiences, even if they do so in all the right ways and for the right reasons, always need to keep in mind that no matter how well they are doing, it will always be the Lord who will decide if, when and how to grant a spiritual experience, and His timing and methods may differ from our perceived needs and expectations. Some people can probably accept and handle that difference, and for others, it might be damaging to their faith.

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4 hours ago, Fether said:

I was listening to the “All In”  Podcast today and in i, the person being interviewed tells the story about how she wouldn’t read the Book of Mormon all the way through because she was scared of not having a spiritual experience confirming to her the truth of it.

It got me thinking about the whole deal of people being confused as to why they don’t have these spiritual and emotional reactions to praying to know the truth of the Book of Mormon, or going to the temple, getting sealed in the temple, watching their child give birth, saying prayer, bearing testimony, and so on.

I wonder if we can compare it to when someone stresses about having too high of a pulse. That feeling caused by the desire is preventing the desire. We see the same in sales. If someone is struggling the sell and aren’t making money, stress sets in and that stress is visible by the person they are trying to sell to and then the cycle continues.

So a couple questions I’ll pose:

- Does the church (in its publications or from its leaders) encourage specific spiritual experiences? Like to feel overwhelmed by the spirit, or feel peace when we read scriptures, particularly Moroni 10:3-5?

- Are we culturally encouraged to have these experiences? Is this bad?

- Can we expect to have these experiences?

- Does God really speak to us all differently?

- Are we better off seeking after righteousness and just letting spiritual experiences come? Or should we be seeking spiritual experiences?


So far, I feel like we need to stop seeking these experiences and just focus on more tangible things we can control. Like seeking truth, doing good, studying scripture, prayer, fasting and developing Christlike attributes. Those experiences with the spirit are not essential, and may not even be necessary for some. The goal of the gospel is not to feel the spirit, it’s to become like our savior.

thoughts?

A great resource: https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/become-app?cid=14300516855&adlang=eng&source=google&network=x&gclid=Cj0KCQjwnJaKBhDgARIsAHmvz6cWnjTzqsfWFzcEByDqeI6fr8hwQwRcG3NXRh7_A8XprL_aQDK82YYaAkgAEALw_wcB&gclid=Cj0KCQjwnJaKBhDgARIsAHmvz6cWnjTzqsfWFzcEByDqeI6fr8hwQwRcG3NXRh7_A8XprL_aQDK82YYaAkgAEALw_wcB

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6 hours ago, Fether said:

I wonder if we can compare it to when someone stresses about having too high of a pulse. That feeling caused by the desire is preventing the desire. We see the same in sales. If someone is struggling the sell and aren’t making money, stress sets in and that stress is visible by the person they are trying to sell to and then the cycle continues.

This here, in my opinion, is a great analogy for our current modern day faith crisis. I am a personal believer that we create the severity -- internally -- of our individual faith crisis.

6 hours ago, Fether said:

So a couple questions I’ll pose:

- Does the church (in its publications or from its leaders) encourage specific spiritual experiences? Like to feel overwhelmed by the spirit, or feel peace when we read scriptures, particularly Moroni 10:3-5?

No. I do not believe the Church encourages any specific spiritual experience, and I think this is good. I would think it would open the heart and mind to temptation --- false revelations -- more readily if the Church encouraged a specific spiritual experience.

I believe the Church only encourages us to seek after the Spirit, and to listen and be aware of when the witness comes.

6 hours ago, Fether said:

- Are we culturally encouraged to have these experiences? Is this bad?

We are encouraged (I wouldn't call it based in culture though) to seek after all the gifts of the Spirit, and to seek them in order to build up Zion. If we are seeking after the gifts of the Spirit, sincerely and with real intent, it goes without saying that our experiences spiritually will grow and vary.

6 hours ago, Fether said:

- Can we expect to have these experiences?

Yes. We are to expect to receive spiritual experiences, but we are not to demand which ones we receive and when they are received. If we are living righteously, the spiritual experiences will come naturally. Some of the most influencing spiritual experiences were not ones I directly asked for, but they came simply as a result of living the gospel.

6 hours ago, Fether said:

- Does God really speak to us all differently?

This is one question I have strong opinions toward as a result from my personal studies. The popular answer, which I feel adamantly does more harm than good, is that yes God speaks to us all differently. I believe this answer is in part why there is so much confusion in the Church.

God speaks to us all through the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is the same for us all. The fruits of the Holy Ghost, or the Spirit, vary (i.e. love, peace, joy, etc...). When I was a younger father and my children were younger I remember discussions about how God speaks to us. I remember a General Authority saying answer to prayers is easy enough that a newly baptized member can know it.

YET, in the Church, when a child asks this question, "How does God speak to us?," the answer is so ambiguous (confusing). It goes something like this:

* That is a great question. Well, God to speaks to me and I feel calm, but that might not be the way he speaks to you. I have a friend who says God speaks with assurances, they feel it is right, but that might not be the way he speaks to you. Oh, and look at this scripture, it was a quiet voice they almost couldn't hear, but that might not be the way God speaks to you. You also might get warm fuzzies and chills all over your body, but that might not be the way God speaks to you. You need to find out the way God speaks to you.

* Thus, the child is left desiring and confused as to his/her question. He/she received a whole lot of answers without an answer. Now, if the gospel is simple and plain enough for a newly baptized member -- who received the Holy Ghost to understand -- does that seem plain and clear or confusing?

6 hours ago, Fether said:

- Are we better off seeking after righteousness and just letting spiritual experiences come? Or should we be seeking spiritual experiences?

I would say Abraham 1: 2 is the best answer for this. Spiritual experiences will come as we live righteously, but I see nothing wrong in seeking after a particular gift of the Spirit (as we have been commanded to do) and expect the answer to come.

6 hours ago, Fether said:


So far, I feel like we need to stop seeking these experiences and just focus on more tangible things we can control. Like seeking truth, doing good, studying scripture, prayer, fasting and developing Christlike attributes. Those experiences with the spirit are not essential, and may not even be necessary for some. The goal of the gospel is not to feel the spirit, it’s to become like our savior.

thoughts?

This emphasized text is the only statement I would have some disagreement with. We can't become like our Savior without the Spirit, which means we have to feel the Spirit in order to become like our Savior. Other than that, I love this thought. Focus on what is tangible, and then allow God -- in his time -- to give us the intangible (Spiritual Experiences) as we become like the Savior by seeking truth (which can only be given by the Spirit), doing good, studying scriptures, etc... Love this thought.

Helaman 3: 35, "Nevertheless they did fast and pray oft, and did wax stronger and stronger in their humility, and firmer and firmer in the faith of Christ, unto the filling their souls with joy and consolation, yea, even to the purifying and the sanctification of their hearts, which sanctification cometh because of their yielding their hearts unto God."

Mosiah 3: 19, we become like Christ by yielding to the enticings of the Holy Spirit.

I personally believe, if you haven't already, you would love the three books authored by Elder Bednar: Increase in Learning, Act in Doctrine, The Power to Become.

 

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18 hours ago, Anddenex said:

I personally believe, if you haven't already, you would love the three books authored by Elder Bednar: Increase in Learning, Act in Doctrine, The Power to Become.

I’ll add those to my list. I enjoy the way Bednar talks and explains things, there is this energy behind it that I just love. I imagine I will like them.

Edited by Fether
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I guess it depends on how you define spiritual experiences. For simplicity's sake I would differentiate between big spiritual experiences and small ones. Small ones where the Spirit gently works on our mind and heart should, I believe, take place in a regular basis in fulfillment of the promise of always having his Spirit to be with us. It is this influence that also has a sanctifying effect upon us even if revelation isn't necessarily being imparted and this needs to be a pretty constant and ongoing process. But the bigger more notable experiences are going to be far less frequent and should not be forced or expected. 

There are a number of reasons why someone does not have even the small experiences. Sometimes it's just the inability to identify them. I think this is a great video that addresses this. 

https://youtu.be/ckuIXECbB5E

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On 9/18/2021 at 2:18 PM, Fether said:

I was listening to the “All In”  Podcast today and in i, the person being interviewed tells the story about how she wouldn’t read the Book of Mormon all the way through because she was scared of not having a spiritual experience confirming to her the truth of it.

It got me thinking about the whole deal of people being confused as to why they don’t have these spiritual and emotional reactions to praying to know the truth of the Book of Mormon, or going to the temple, getting sealed in the temple, watching their child give birth, saying prayer, bearing testimony, and so on.

I wonder if we can compare it to when someone stresses about having too high of a pulse. That feeling caused by the desire is preventing the desire. We see the same in sales. If someone is struggling the sell and aren’t making money, stress sets in and that stress is visible by the person they are trying to sell to and then the cycle continues.

So a couple questions I’ll pose:

- Does the church (in its publications or from its leaders) encourage specific spiritual experiences? Like to feel overwhelmed by the spirit, or feel peace when we read scriptures, particularly Moroni 10:3-5?

- Are we culturally encouraged to have these experiences? Is this bad?

- Can we expect to have these experiences?

- Does God really speak to us all differently?

- Are we better off seeking after righteousness and just letting spiritual experiences come? Or should we be seeking spiritual experiences?


So far, I feel like we need to stop seeking these experiences and just focus on more tangible things we can control. Like seeking truth, doing good, studying scripture, prayer, fasting and developing Christlike attributes. Those experiences with the spirit are not essential, and may not even be necessary for some. The goal of the gospel is not to feel the spirit, it’s to become like our savior.

thoughts?

I sort of agree, and yet something feels “off”.

When I take my wife out on a date, I’m not necessarily seeking to have a “romantic” or “bonding” experience or whatever. I am trying to build a relationship, and I have faith that over time me taking her out on a lot of dates (and doing other activities like earning an income, tackling my “honey do” list, spending time with our kids, doing little extra acts of service for her, etc) contributes to a pattern of behavior that allows that relationship to grow and blossom over time.  And along the way—of course there will be “bad dates”, planned activities that go awry, words or gestures that somehow get misinterpreted, plays and concerts that get cut short by a babysitter calling us to report that Kid 1 is chasing Kid 3 with a knife and can we please come home right now, and periods of prolonged silence while we eat our meals in silence because both of us are just too tired (or too shellshocked) to make much in the way of conversation.

On the other hand—because I have committed to my wife and am bound to her by covenant, I don’t have to drive myself batty over the phobia that an individual experience may not always turn out the way I want it to.  Because I know I’m trying, and I know there’s always tomorrow, and I know she’ll be there with me as long as she sees me doing my part.

Likewise, for spiritual experiences:  I think the focus should perhaps be less on chasing the experiences themselves (or defining exactly what those experiences should look like); and more into doing the activities we know will build the relationship and trusting that in time the experiences will come and that we will recognize and value them when they do (understanding that there will be some common denominators, but that the Spirit also may engage with us in a way that meets our individual expectations, which in turn may to some degree be products of our own culture—which I think is why the Church in some times and places is more likely to have Pentecostal-type spiritual manifestations, whereas in other times or places the focus is more on the “still small voice”).

But in most ways “seeking spiritual experiences” versus “building a relationship” is a distinction without a difference, because the things the Church teaches us to do to “seek spiritual experiences” are exactly the same things that we do to build our relationship with God:  scripture study, fasting, prayer, church and temple attendance, service, et cetera.  So even though I think agree with your paradigm, I worry that some might pervert it into a sort of cop-out or justification for not inconveniencing themselves or otherwise really doing much of anything in their quest for the divine; the way most of those  “I’m spiritual but not religious” dorklings tend to do.  

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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32 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I sort of agree, and yet something feels “off”.

When I take my wife out on a date, I’m not necessarily seeking to have a “romantic” or “bonding” experience or whatever. I am trying to build a relationship, and I have faith that over time me taking her out on a lot of dates (and doing other activities like earning an income, tackling my “honey do” list, spending time with our kids, doing little extra acts of service for her, etc) contributes to a pattern of behavior that allows that relationship to grow and blossom over time.  And along the way—of course there will be “bad dates”, planned activities that go awry, words or gestures that somehow get misinterpreted, plays and concerts that get cut short by a babysitter calling us to report that Kid 1 is chasing Kid 3 with a knife and can we please come home right now, and periods of prolonged silence while we eat our meals in silence because both of us are just too tired (or too shellshocked) to make much in the way of conversation.

On the other hand—because I have committed to my wife and am bound to her by covenant, I don’t have to drive myself batty over the phobia that an individual experience may not always turn out the way I want it to.  Because I know I’m trying, and I know there’s always tomorrow, and I know she’ll be there with me as long as she sees me doing my part.

Likewise, for spiritual experiences:  I think the focus should perhaps be less on chasing the experiences themselves (or defining exactly what those experiences should look like); and more into doing the activities we know will build the relationship and trusting that in time the experiences will come and that we will recognize and value them when they do (understanding that there will be some common denominators, but that the Spirit also may engage with us in a way that meets our individual expectations, which in turn may to some degree be products of our own culture—which I think is why the Church in some times and places is more likely to have Pentecostal-type spiritual manifestations, whereas in other times or places the focus is more on the “still small voice”).

But in most ways “seeking spiritual experiences” versus “building a relationship” is a distinction without a difference, because the things the Church teaches us to do to “seek spiritual experiences” are exactly the same things that we do to build our relationship with God:  scripture study, fasting, prayer, church and temple attendance, service, et cetera.  So even though I think agree with your paradigm, I worry that some might pervert it into a sort of cop-out or justification for not inconveniencing themselves or otherwise really doing much of anything in their quest for the divine; the way most of those  “I’m spiritual but not religious” dorklings tend to do.  

I love your thoughts on this.

Ill add that I think we often (at least I do) devalue our spiritual experiences unless they are some overwhelming or seemingly miraculous event. I would argue that studying scriptures and realizing we haven’t had charity for others is a spiritual experience. Choosing to go to the temple and do temple work for a family member is a spiritual experience on its own right. Even though these are not some overwhelming sensation accompanied by tears, they are feelings that are not natural to human beings, but rather inspired by the spirit.

Edited by Fether
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On 9/18/2021 at 4:18 PM, Fether said:

I was listening to the “All In”  Podcast today and in i, the person being interviewed tells the story about how she wouldn’t read the Book of Mormon all the way through because she was scared of not having a spiritual experience confirming to her the truth of it.

It got me thinking about the whole deal of people being confused as to why they don’t have these spiritual and emotional reactions to praying to know the truth of the Book of Mormon, or going to the temple, getting sealed in the temple, watching their child give birth, saying prayer, bearing testimony, and so on.

I wonder if we can compare it to when someone stresses about having too high of a pulse. That feeling caused by the desire is preventing the desire. We see the same in sales. If someone is struggling the sell and aren’t making money, stress sets in and that stress is visible by the person they are trying to sell to and then the cycle continues.

So a couple questions I’ll pose:

- Does the church (in its publications or from its leaders) encourage specific spiritual experiences? Like to feel overwhelmed by the spirit, or feel peace when we read scriptures, particularly Moroni 10:3-5?

- Are we culturally encouraged to have these experiences? Is this bad?

- Can we expect to have these experiences?

- Does God really speak to us all differently?

- Are we better off seeking after righteousness and just letting spiritual experiences come? Or should we be seeking spiritual experiences?


So far, I feel like we need to stop seeking these experiences and just focus on more tangible things we can control. Like seeking truth, doing good, studying scripture, prayer, fasting and developing Christlike attributes. Those experiences with the spirit are not essential, and may not even be necessary for some. The goal of the gospel is not to feel the spirit, it’s to become like our savior.

thoughts?

 

On 9/18/2021 at 4:18 PM, Fether said:

I was listening to the “All In”  Podcast today and in i, the person being interviewed tells the story about how she wouldn’t read the Book of Mormon all the way through because she was scared of not having a spiritual experience confirming to her the truth of it.

It got me thinking about the whole deal of people being confused as to why they don’t have these spiritual and emotional reactions to praying to know the truth of the Book of Mormon, or going to the temple, getting sealed in the temple, watching their child give birth, saying prayer, bearing testimony, and so on.

I wonder if we can compare it to when someone stresses about having too high of a pulse. That feeling caused by the desire is preventing the desire. We see the same in sales. If someone is struggling the sell and aren’t making money, stress sets in and that stress is visible by the person they are trying to sell to and then the cycle continues.

So a couple questions I’ll pose:

- Does the church (in its publications or from its leaders) encourage specific spiritual experiences? Like to feel overwhelmed by the spirit, or feel peace when we read scriptures, particularly Moroni 10:3-5?

- Are we culturally encouraged to have these experiences? Is this bad?

- Can we expect to have these experiences?

- Does God really speak to us all differently?

- Are we better off seeking after righteousness and just letting spiritual experiences come? Or should we be seeking spiritual experiences?


So far, I feel like we need to stop seeking these experiences and just focus on more tangible things we can control. Like seeking truth, doing good, studying scripture, prayer, fasting and developing Christlike attributes. Those experiences with the spirit are not essential, and may not even be necessary for some. The goal of the gospel is not to feel the spirit, it’s to become like our Savior.

thoughts?

It escapes me how one could ever expect to become like the Savior without feeling the same holy spiritual emotions that motivate him to be as he is and do as he does. Without feeling the Spirit, our works are dead works that profit nothing.

 

 

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On 9/18/2021 at 2:18 PM, Fether said:

the person being interviewed tells the story about how she wouldn’t read the Book of Mormon all the way through because she was scared of not having a spiritual experience confirming to her the truth of it.

This is silly on a few levels. A. What does reading it "all the way" through have to do with the promise given? B. The Lord's promises are the Lord's promises and He will fulfill them. C. The promise is not "if you read it all the way through you'll have a spiritual experience".  It is, that when we read these things if we:

  • remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men
  • ponder it in our hearts.
  • ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true
  • ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ

And if we do those things, He promises that He will manifest the truth of it unto us, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Period.

He will manifest the truth of it unto us by the power of the Holy Ghost.

If He does not it is because we haven't done our part.

So what is our part?

It's obedience. ALL blessings (including spiritual confirmation of truth) are predicated upon obedience to law.

If we obey, we will have spiritual experiences.

So in that regard, I think there's a level of merit (sort of) to the suggestion that we stop seeking spiritual experiences....sort of. But not really though. It's a matter of focus. For example, if your objective is to drive to the store, then to say you should stop worrying about driving to the store to drive to the store makes little sense. But if you're unable to drive to the store, then it's probably reasonable to ask why you cannot. Is the car out of gas? Is it otherwise broken? Do we know how to drive? Is a road built that goes to the store? Etc., etc. The spiritual experience is the means whereby we know God. It is imperative. We should seek it above all else. But..... that means looking at the how of it. What is the how of it? I'll restate:

Obedience.

So, yeah. Focus on obedience to that end, instead of merely that end. There's some validity in that idea. To just cast of spiritual experiences as unimportant is severely flawed though.

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