Disturbances and Disllusionment regarding Church Bureaucracy and administration


JohnsonJones
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This will be a two part post.  The first involves direct family involvement just recently that sparked me to type this post up, and the second my thoughts on things occurring worldwide with the church and difficulties I am seeing.

NONE of it involves DOCTRINE OR POLICIES ON GOSPEL ADHERENCE in my opinion.  It is almost completely dealing with how the church administers itself in many local areas and problems that I think may have derived from such actions.

The first item.

This week I had a grandchild hurt during a church activity.  No one helped the grandchild.  No one even mentioned it to the parents.  No one noticed the grandchild was hurt.  It was a semi-serious injury that was noticeable as soon as the grandchild arrived home.  Instead of driving the grandchild home, or noticing that the grandchild left early (the grandchild left early after getting injured, and walked home) the leaders didn't seem to even care. 

My daughter called me absolutely IRATE about this.  Their first thought...lawsuit.  Any adult who was responsible for the child and was negligent enough for serious injury to occur, and then didn't care or look after the said child...should be legally held responsible...in their thoughts.

I would like to say I simply took it calmly and advised them.  I did not.  WE argued.  It was very much the spirit of contention.  I feet bad after it and it is keeping me up tonight as I think about it (which has led to other thoughts as well).  Ironically, if it were another organization (such as a school, sports, or just about anything else) I would actually be on her side.  When I look at it, it is purely because it is at the church that I am opposed to what she was thinking.

I think I convinced her to let it go, that these things happen and the world is not made any better by getting angry over very human mistakes.  That isn't what is disturbing me now though, what is disturbing is that I make an allowance for the Church that I would not for any other organization.  Her words sting, and with it being an argument, I'm not sure if I really was being led by the right spirit or not.

I was reminded of when she was a little girl (actually, more like a teenager, but still a child under my roof).  She had this way of getting under my skin sometimes when I didn't acquiesce to what she was thinking or wanting.  I don't think I showed it much except to get grumpier, but still, not a good feeling.

I am left to ponder...should we allow the Church (and this isn't talking about the greater Church, in this instance it's obviously more about more local occurences that have NOTHING to do with how the Church actually is, the gospel, or anything else) get away with things we wouldn't let other groups get away with.

I think that's what I argued to my daughter about tonight.  The problem is I'm not feeling all that good about how I resolved it with her.  I think this question comes up in many instances and I am reminded of a talk by Elder Uchtdorf many years ago.  I can't recall the exact conference, but I think it was something about getting over little offenses that our leaders may do, and focus on the gospel.  Everyone is human and may make mistakes, but that should not be what causes us to stumble.  Keep the real gospel in sight.

I just wish I felt better about how I went about it tonight with my daughter.

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Using the above as a launch off point to a broader context, I think there are many who are having little problems these days affect their testimonies.  Instead of looking at the broad picture of the gospel truths and the salvation we are seeking, they let little small stumbling stones trip them up.  The question that stems from this that I started pondering, especially in light of my more recent travels, is how much the Church is or should be doing in fixing such things.

In the above example, I think part of the problem is that the Youth Program right now is really lax.  That is good in some instances, but there may need to be stricter guidelines on safety and leadership than there are presently.  Adult leaders NEED to take responsibility more serious, and though I am sure some are, in some locals I am also sure they do the least they can.  We are all busy and leadership is a hard thing, but letting youth under your care get injured and not care is an entirely different level of carelessness.

Going beyond that though, I noticed most recently that we had trouble with Church in other parts of the World.  When they were meeting in many instances it was via electronic or other means.  What was MORE bothersome though was that some of the branches I used to attend have now been closed and the nearest meeting groups are many hours away in many instances.  I was not completely out of contact with some of the members and I've gotten an idea of some of these small stumbling blocks which I'm not sure if they even SHOULD be stumbling blocks.  They are very similar to what has always been, but the way the church has changed things up in some instances seem to me to be aggravating some of these instances where perhaps a change of things may help.

I am wondering if some of these things are making it harder for those in other parts of the world to attend, and thus join the church in some instances.  We were BOOMING in the late 20th century with the creation of wards and new members, but today that seems to be flagging (and has seemed to be decreasing to smaller and smaller percentages since the turn of the  millennium).

So, in that light of my disturbing thoughts tonight, I'm addressing what I think would be the top 5 items.

A.  We have always had those who had to work odd times and spaces.  Sometimes the Church caters to the differences in culture and work periods.  In other nations for example, the Sabbath is sometimes observed on a different day than Sunday in accordance with the customs and traditions of those areas. 

In the past (it's been a while though...longer than I remember it being, it's been decades, many of you may not have been alive when this occurred) we used to have meetings at different times of the day and the week.  Sacrament was not just done during the main meeting (most of the ones I attended at the time had the main Sacrament meeting as you would call it in the evening), but also at Sunday School (in the morning) and sometimes during the middle of the week.  For those who were Blue Collar workers and worked odd times, or those in general, this gave several opportunities to receive this sacred ordinance. 

When we combined all the meetings it did well at first.  I'm not so sure it works for today's worlds.  The increase of young people working odd hours make it much harder for them to attend a set time period in many cases.  Trying to make a sacrament meeting at 9 AM works well for a white collar middle and upper class membership, but can be unnecessarily hard for those who are outside that class and work varied hours. 

This may seem a small stumbling block, but when it seems impossible for one to go to church, it can become the first step in inactivity.  This was not a problem I saw when I first joined the church, but it seems (especially in some parts of Europe today) like it could be a stumbling block for many today, especially those investigating the church who do not have work schedules that allow them to attend the church, even if they had a desire at some point to do so.

 

B.  Most of what I have to post from here on our pertain to a PR problem I see the Church is having, nothing more.  Problems with Church History that people claim to have is really just PR coming from other groups outside the Church.  This is one area I think the Church COULD do ALOT better at...whether at a local or higher level.  They are getting devastated on the PR front by many others.  I'd hire the BEST PR organization out there to build up a better name if I could (but I'm not the person to make those choices).  Someone in the Church Bureaucracy really needs to make a serious investment into PR..as I see that's where the failing on most fronts are.  It's not about the history of the Church, or this or that...it's strictly HOW the CHURCH presents itself vs. the power that those who are detractors are attacking it.  This boils down to PR and PR work.  The Church needs a better organization to run it's PR department.

I have a book that was written during the mid 20th century that I turned to read tonight after reading some of the Book of Mormon to calm down.  Normally I prefer the words of the Prophets and books by them, but tonight I felt to read it and stumbled across a passage I feel is extremely relevant.  It is The Restored Church by William Edwin Berrett, copyright Deseret Book Company 1961, Fourteenth Edition 1969, pg 61.

Quote

Publications, almost without number, have appeared denouncing the Book of Mormon as a hoax and a fraud.  most of them have enjoyed briefly the oppularity occasioned by curiosity, and then largely been forgotten.  To date, few have reached a second edition.  None have influenced the members of the Church against the book or interfered with its sales to the people of the world. 

........

pg 65.

Quote

Revelations and other answers to prayers are realities and constitute the only source of man's knowledge of God and his relationship to man. 

Detractors have ALWAYS been there.  The arguments I hear today against the Church are the same arguments I have heard over my lifetime.  Until my Father passed away I was almost always given anti-mormon tracts when visiting family. 

People argue the difference today is the availability of the internet, but in the past, especially as my children grew up, it seemed finding literature against the Church was easier than it is today.  Many churches would give such junk to any they could convince to get it, and the books and articles abounded. 

The ONLY difference I see is HOW the Church approached it, and it boils down to PR and PR work.  I think a GREAT deal of the things that people are having problems with are more with the APPEARANCES that they are given, and when nothing is given to counter it in the same fierceness and bluntness as the enemies of the Church give, they fall to the PR from the other side.

It's not just on historical matters but other items as well.  It used to be, even beyond the Utah, Arizona, and Idaho frontier that we would see Commercials for the church in the media quite regularly.  We would see advertisements and many other things.  If nothing else, it was just to broadcast a good advice and idea on the part of the Church to give the Church a good name.  Like any advertising does, it was to spread the appearance of the Church in a good fashion.

I'm sure there are things that could be done to be effective PR today, but I don't see that PR being utilized as well today and I think many are stumbling because of it.  It is a SMALL AND MINOR thing in most instances, but it hurts some investigating the church and I see an increasing number of members stumbling on account of these small items which have always been there, but today seem to be far more effective in making people stumble then they have in the past.

I can only think it's PR work, someone stellar in PR needs to be hired or something.  Normally these are foolish things that I see (qualms about the historical aspects of the Book of Mormon for instance is one that people have today, when in truth it was never intended to be a profane history of the Americas, nor does it claim to be, it is a book based upon faith and truth, rather than historical facts and figures.  The Book of Mormon's power is in the Spirit and the Spirit revealing truth to you, not in the non-spiritual, but the spiritual) and do not truly relate to the gospel itself (IN MY OPINION).  That things are seemingly hitting the Church harder today than in the past seems to indicate that perhaps we need to have PR work a different angle similar to what we did in the past than what we are doing today...but that's just a thought that occurs to me this evening while I am troubled than anything more.

 

C.  As the Church has spread to other parts of the World, I see the gospel presentation stay the same in some instances.  This has little relevance to those who are not Christians at times.  In Europe you have more and more who are not Christian, but instead are atheist, and agnostic at best.  Trying to build upon a common belief in Christianity will, in many instances, fail with those who feel like this.  They NEED something in common.  There needs to be a common background.  I see a growing trend in the US with the same ideas...appealing to their love of the Lord and the Bible will not work with these individuals in most cases.  Other areas of common ground need to be built. 

Furthermore, I think the FAR RIGHT wing of the Church is hurting the Church in converting people.  I love my Conservative brothers and sisters, but most of the older Conservative folks have their minds made up.  Some may join, but for the most part, they are not going to leave their believes.  They are conservative for a reason.

On the otherhand, the more freethinking younger folks may investigate the church, but not if they are turned off by the Far Right who they think govern the church (prime example, there is a very strong anti-vaccination feeling coming out of many Church members today.  The broadcast that they are against vaccines and rail against vaccines.  This is OBVIOUSLY AGAINST THE OFFICIAL STANCE OF THE CHURCH, but these people are very loud.  It is not a problem that is really WITH the church at all, but with members.  In fact, a LARGE number of the things I bring up in this post has to deal with how a small number of members are influencing things very badly within the church for those investigating the church). 

This goes again to the PR angle above (I don't have much of a solution, my only thought is to hire the best PR group out there to solve this), but it's not really a problem with the Church, but with some people within the church.  We need to show the Church is more politically  neutral. 

If a young person were to come to this site, for example, they would probably guess that the Church is a bastion of the FAR RIGHT rather than being more neutral in regards to the World political stances, or even the US's political stances.  This does NOT build common ground with the freethinking younger folks that are more likely to investigate the church.  If anything, it probably turns them off.

If they never start investigating, they never get to the point to pray, which means they never build a testimony. 

I think we need to find more common ground with the world around us.  Not that we adopt their fashions or trends, but where we can actually understand each other and they become more interested in us and the Church once again.

D.  This is the primary thing that I started thinking on when I started this entire line of thought this evening.  After discussing with my daughter it seems the rules and guidance on how to lead youth programs is just not there, it doesn't exist in a very strong or stringent fashion.  I think there needs to be an investment in the members of the Church.   There needs to be an investment in the PEOPLE.  Rather than seeing them as a business and them as customers, rather than just seeing numbers, SEE THEM as people.  They are not just there to make numbers on a spreadsheet, they are there to bring salvation and exaltation too. 

The WAY you invest in the members is seen by those outside the church as well.  If you do NOT invest in the programs and the people of the Church, why should people invest themselves in the Church?  It can become a two way street and it is a two way street that non-members see as well. 

This of course will differ TREMENDOUSLY from local area to local area.  This is more a local problem in many places than a "Church problem" other than perhaps a more universal guidance and measures need to be put in place.  One Ward and Stake may have GREAT activities monthly with tremendous leadership and great care put into the youth.  Another may have it where the Bishopric is FAR overworked to think about the young men in any great detail, the young Woman leaders have not time or budget, and the primary is barely hanging on. 

I remember when my kids were growing up we had great programs.  Roadshows, Youth camps, inspirational talks and firesides, all manner of involving and deep devotionals and activities each week.  Now...I see the deacons playing nerf guns or hide and seek each week, the young women having planning meeting after planning meeting and movie nights, and primary having very few primary activities in my local area (as I said, it may vary GREATLY from area to area).  What has happened?  There are some areas that I think are not investing that heavily in their members, and I think over time this is going to show.

 

E.  The Church needs to be special.  People are drawn to that which is different.  If the Church ends up like any other generic Christian Church out there...what sets us apart?  Why should they be a member of our  Church?  It needs to be special in a GOOD way though (not in a way which our adults are more careless about children and youth than other churches, but one where perhaps FAMILY is more important and a focus).  We need to have that catch.  There ARE still Christians in Europe and the US, and if we are just like any other Christian Church, if they are dissatisfied with what they have already...what will make them seek us out?  We NEED to be unique.  We need to be in the world...but not OF the world. It may seem contradictory to what I said above (increasing number of Atheists or those who are NOT christian) but both can be true.  Even then, for those who are NOT christians, what sets us apart from the REST of Christianity.  What is it about us that makes them interested in US?

Again, it's down to PR.  In fact, most of this probably boils down to PR. 

Because I can't fight my kids each week over why they need to avoid the small stumbling stones and stay true to the gospel.  Because I don't feel good when I argue with them.  Because eventually I'll be gone, and I fear for my kids and grandkids.  I already have had a LOT of things occur over the past few years, things I never imagined would happen with a few of my family and difficulties they are having with the gospel and the church...and I don't know what will happen when I am gone. 

I feel like I am the glue holding my family in the Church to a degree these days, and I am afraid of what may happen when I am gone.  I want something to happen to help them because I don't know if all of them will remain in the Church once I am no longer here to try to keep them in it.

Edited by JohnsonJones
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I hear you.  Sorry about the grand daughter.  And the family fight.  As well as COVID.  

I love the Gospel with all my heart.  I have problems with the “church” though.  The only time I loved the church was when I was 7-8 years old and we lived in Hawaii.  The members were strong.  They sang with joy.  The food was amazing at the meetings.  The mahalo spirit was powerful.  I remember going to Hanauma Bay for church activities.  And when my little brother was born, the relief society brought over so much food, we felt like royalty.

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Serenity moment *

There are too many bad examples of my other wards that a list would be exhaustive - literally.  But to name a few I have had leaders that stole from the family. Bishops and Stake Presidents that were excommunicated.  Horrible mission president that was inactive and exiled me to the most isolated sector of the mission because I questioned his leadership. etc.

I recently saw a news clip of a woman in New Orleans after the recent flooding.  And she was screaming with despair, and hatred, “Where are the authorities?”  It was a bad situation - flooding, no electricity, etc…   Anyway when I heard her outburst, I callously laughed.  When did we become a species that relies upon others to fix our problems.  She had just lived through Katrina...  She knew that this was a possibility.  

We have hunkered down as a family during COVID, and I have thoroughly enjoyed it.  We do home church.  I love every member of my meeting house.  We do family home evening.  We watch general conference talks.  We have started hiking as a family activity as well.

I can’t wait for General Conference.  I wish it was quarterly instead of biannually produced.

I’m not sure that improving the church’s public relations department is the fix that we need.

It’s crazy out there and it’s getting worse.  Lucifer will not quit.  It’s challenging to run a huge corporation.  And problems will continue.  They nailed down the windows of our local chapel because one of the children lost a fingertip.  Its a solution I guess.  Remember when they used to let us cook in the church kitchens?

Did you watch the team USA gymnastic hearing where the girls let out their disgust and betrayal from their team doctor, FBI, and team USA leadership?  It was heartbreaking. 

https://nypost.com/2021/02/26/aly-raisman-slams-usa-gymnastics-for-sex-abuse-cover-up-after-coach-john-gedderts-suicide/

I think that we are better off strengthening the family then we are strengthening the “church.”

Edited by mikbone
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8 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

My daughter called me absolutely IRATE about this.  Their first thought...lawsuit.  Any adult who was responsible for the child and was negligent enough for serious injury to occur, and then didn't care or look after the said child...should be legally held responsible...in their thoughts.

So, did the kid get hurt, hide it from everyone, and sneak home before anyone found out? 

A story I'm told by the parents of a drama-queen-always-loud-about-every-little-inconvenience daughter.   One time she blew up her mom's phone begging to be picked up early because she was sick and dying and dying and sick.  Mom went to pick her up early.  Turns out she moved heaven and earth to not let anyone in school know what was going on.  Told the teacher she needed to leave and her mom was coming, sat on the steps, actually threw up on herself, snuck around and hid from everyone in the school, until mom appeared, then she made a mad dash for the car and demanded to be driven away quickly.

Has she actually approached any of the leaders about this to figure out what happened?  Lawsuits are what should happen when people are given the opportunity to do what they're legally required to, and refuse.  People get to be fallen humans, who struggle against their own imperfect nature.  Complacency is a normal thing.  But folks have to be given the chance to get their act together and do the right thing, before lawyers get involved.

I'm guessing the most-likely explanation, is kid got hurt on accident, it's not really anyone's fault, and there is no legal recourse.   The leaders involved either will or won't stand up and do the right thing of expressing the range of emotions and outrage that your mamma bear daughter needs to have to feel ok about the whole thing.   That's my guess.

But no, for absolute heaven's sake, if someone at that activity was criminally negligent in some way, DO NOT PROTECT THE PERPETRATOR OF A CRIME.  Do not sacrifice your grandchild at the altar of the false god of "if people knew, they might think worse about the church" or some other luceferian nonsense.  That's not "glue holding family to the church", that's evil calling itself good.   Don't be that guy, JJ.  The church just finished paying $250 million dollars into the Boy Scout sexual abuse claim fund, because so many people used to think that way. 

Edited by NeuroTypical
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11 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

So, did the kid get hurt, hide it from everyone, and sneak home before anyone found out? 

A story I'm told by the parents of a drama-queen-always-loud-about-every-little-inconvenience daughter.   One time she blew up her mom's phone begging to be picked up early because she was sick and dying and dying and sick.  Mom went to pick her up early.  Turns out she moved heaven and earth to not let anyone in school know what was going on.  Told the teacher she needed to leave and her mom was coming, sat on the steps, actually threw up on herself, snuck around and hid from everyone in the school, until mom appeared, then she made a mad dash for the car and demanded to be driven away quickly.

Has she actually approached any of the leaders about this to figure out what happened?  Lawsuits are what should happen when people are given the opportunity to do what they're legally required to, and refuse.  People get to be fallen humans, who struggle against their own imperfect nature.  Complacency is a normal thing.  But folks have to be given the chance to get their act together and do the right thing, before lawyers get involved.

I'm guessing the most-likely explanation, is kid got hurt on accident, it's not really anyone's fault, and there is no legal recourse.   The leaders involved either will or won't stand up and do the right thing of expressing the range of emotions and outrage that your mamma bear daughter needs to have to feel ok about the whole thing.   That's my guess.

But no, for absolute heaven's sake, if someone at that activity was criminally negligent in some way, DO NOT PROTECT THE PERPETRATOR OF A CRIME.  Do not sacrifice your grandchild at the altar of the false god of "if people knew, they might think worse about the church" or some other luceferian nonsense.  That's not "glue holding family to the church", that's evil calling itself good.   Don't be that guy, JJ.  The church just finished paying $250 million dollars into the Boy Scout sexual abuse claim fund, because so many people used to think that way. 

Perfectly said bro. 
 

Hope things work out on your side @JohnsonJones

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It’s interesting how terminology can make such a big difference.  I blanch at the idea of suing the Church (and I think it’s normal to want to be extra charitable/give a pass to an organization when you support its overall motives and accept that its members and agents generally are acting in good faith even when they foul up); but I’d have no problem going up the pecking order to figure out how to file an insurance claim against the Church.  The Church doesn’t need to pay punitive damages or reimburse me some inflated/bogus “pain and suffering” figure—but if I’m out a couple grand for an insurance deductible for an injury that a sloppy Church officer caused, I have no problem asking the Church to financially make good on that.

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The Church has insurance for their activities and it is not a big issue to ask the Bishop to assist in making a claim IMHO. Don't really know the circumstances so it's hard to say, but as a long-time Scoutmaster I can say I never saw an adult try to downplay an injury. Usually we were the last to know.

@JohnsonJones You are not alone when you say "I feel like I am the glue holding my family in the Church to a degree these days, and I am afraid of what may happen when I am gone.  I want something to happen to help them because I don't know if all of them will remain in the Church once I am no longer here to try to keep them in it." There are many noble men and women holding fast to the rod and helping their loved ones hang on to the faith. Thank you for being one of them.

The war in heaven was a war of ideas about agency. Lucifer fought long and hard to convince a third of our family that the bullying, unfairness, cruelty, vice, hate, discrimination, racism, and endless multitudes of other kinds of evils that would accompany a world with free agency was not worth it.

Those of us here on earth fought together to allow agency because we trusted that Jesus would become our Christ and Savior and would make everything right in the end. I imagine that when Heavenly Father and Jesus taught us about the evils that the natural man would be capable of, we likely couldn't believe what we were hearing. Unspeakable cruelties, and nobody would be exempt from experiencing them - not even the Savior himself. He would be crucified and killed, by some of us in the congregation of the Heavenly Hosts. In fact, all these cruelties would be committed by those of us in the audience. But somehow, we knew the blessings of Eternal Life would be worth the suffering. We could never become Celestial without this earth life.

Satan knows this, and though he lost the war in Heaven, he is actively promoting the same falsehoods here on earth - that the Church, the doctrines, the leaders, the members, and all of Jesus and Heavenly Father's plan was and still is unfair and incredibly cruel. Sadly many of the valiant are falling for the second wave of Satan's propaganda machine.

I pray constantly that people can remember that they are loved sons and daughters of God, who knew the risks of coming to earth and chose to come anyway. I pray that when the waves of frustration and anger hit us in this life, that we will be able to find a thread of faith to hang onto until the last day.

@JohnsonJones you are one of those living and saving threads of faith for your family. Hang in there!

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