responses requested death as return to normality

[askandanswer]

Could I get some response to the idea that there can be benefits to viewing the consequences of death as a return to an improved normality?

The idea that it is a return to normality comes from the idea that in our eternal existence, the post-mortal conditions in which we live will be much more like the pre-mortal conditions of our existence under which we lived for untold thousands of years than the conditions which govern our 100 years or so of mortal existence, and that therefore those pre and post mortal conditions can more accurately be described as our normal conditions of existence.

The idea that the post mortality conditions will be an improvement on the normality comes from the belief that our post mortal existence will be improved and enriched by the knowledge and experiences we gain in mortality.

The idea that there could be benefits in viewing the consequences of death as a return to an improved normality stems from the idea that there are some who consider that by failing to prevent deaths, or by actually bringing them about, as occasionally suggested by some stories on the Old Testament, God is doing something bad, or at the least, failing to be good. If death can be viewed as enabling a return to an improved normality, this particular criticism against God could be blunted, and this could be a benefit. This idea might also help to lessen the grief of those who mourn a death. 

So what is your response to this idea?

Edited October 9, 2021 by askandanswer

[laronius]

Of some Jesus said it were better had they not been born. This would seem to imply that what was to come was in fact not better than what they had before.

But for the vast majority there are definite benefits to exiting this fallen world. Though I would hesitate to call it a return to normality because that short stay in the spirit world will quickly yield to a whole new phase of existence with resurrected bodies coupled with a degree of glory.

But I would agree with your main assertion that for most better things do await us. Alma I think speaks to this point when he said: "Now behold, it was not expedient that man should be reclaimed from this temporal death, for that would destroy the great plan of happiness." (Alma 42:8) This existence is very necessary but in so many ways it offends God and he looks forward to it ending. So I guess we should view it in a similar way.

Edited October 10, 2021 by laronius

[Fether]

8 hours ago, askandanswer said:

So what is your response to this idea?

Just a reminder that the ultimate destiny of our souls is to have an exalted body. Yes, a spirit only existence may be our current “normal” but it is not superior to us with a real body. I personally believe that us as fallen man in these imperfect bodies is a superior state than a spirit without a body.

[mikbone]

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1992/04/doors-of-death?lang=eng

[Traveler]

On 10/9/2021 at 3:18 PM, askandanswer said:

Could I get some response to the idea that there can be benefits to viewing the consequences of death as a return to an improved normality?

The idea that it is a return to normality comes from the idea that in our eternal existence, the post-mortal conditions in which we live will be much more like the pre-mortal conditions of our existence under which we lived for untold thousands of years than the conditions which govern our 100 years or so of mortal existence, and that therefore those pre and post mortal conditions can more accurately be described as our normal conditions of existence.

The idea that the post mortality conditions will be an improvement on the normality comes from the belief that our post mortal existence will be improved and enriched by the knowledge and experiences we gain in mortality.

The idea that there could be benefits in viewing the consequences of death as a return to an improved normality stems from the idea that there are some who consider that by failing to prevent deaths, or by actually bringing them about, as occasionally suggested by some stories on the Old Testament, God is doing something bad, or at the least, failing to be good. If death can be viewed as enabling a return to an improved normality, this particular criticism against God could be blunted, and this could be a benefit. This idea might also help to lessen the grief of those who mourn a death. 

So what is your response to this idea?

Having lost many family and fiends in death - I will provide some opinion.  Generally we morn and sorrow over death but at the same time it seems to me that if we are aware of long suffering (especially deteriorating health and pain) of the person that passed there is somewhat feelings of relief but if a person passes suddenly or unexpectedly that are increased feelings of loss and injustice.   

I thought to tell part of what happened when my brother died in an accident within a few months of returning from his mission.  I was somewhat hardened because of the loss of some friends that I helped come into baptism while in the Army during the Vietnam era.   I did not see my brother but he came to me speaking with thoughts and impressions that I knew were not mine and quite unique to my brother.  He was sad at our grief - especially the grief of my parents.  He impressed on me that great grief will inhibit spiritual influences of light and comfort.   He asked me to comfort our parents - that all was well with him and that no blessings were lost to him (including eternal marriage) and that his death, though seemingly tragic, was in reality a fulfilling of divine blessing and calling.   He impressed upon me that if I bore witness that all was well with him that he could bring a second witness that would verify that my witness was true - but that my witness must be of comfort and truth.

I have come to believe that the greatest problem with death is when we are so overcome with the temptation of grief that we cannot hear the spirit.

 

The Traveler 

Edited November 10, 2021 by Traveler

[Still_Small_Voice]

My mind has been looking into the fact for years that death is not good for those who are in a carnal, sensual or devilish state.  These people that have sent themselves to spirit prison because of their sins must suffer until their day of deliverance.  (Some were in spirit prison from the days of Noah until Christ resurrected.  Some who died in the floods from the days of Noah are probably still in spirit prison.)

It seems beyond my comprehension of what spirit prison actually is and how things work in the spirit world.  We know paradise and prison are here on the earth, but the spirits are in a different state than mortals in this temporal existence.  And almost all people will spend a longer time in the spirit world than they did in their mortal existence.

Spirit paradise seems much easier to comprehend in my mind.

[askandanswer]

On 11/11/2021 at 7:26 AM, Still_Small_Voice said:

It seems beyond my comprehension of what spirit prison actually is and how things work in the spirit world. 

My guess, at its simplest, is that those in spirit prison are subject to limitations that those not in spirit prison are not subject to. I think that limitations is the key concept. However, what those limitations might be, and whether those limitations apply in varying degrees and to varying extents, I do not know. 

[askandanswer]

On 11/11/2021 at 5:57 AM, Traveler said:

 

Having lost many family and fiends in death

I'm guessing that this is not quite what you meant to say?  

 

He impressed upon me that if I bore witness that all was well with him that he could bring a second witness that would verify that my witness was true - but that my witness must be of comfort and truth.

@Traveler I'm confident that you would have fulfilled the conditions required to obtain a second witness. I hope you might be willing to share what that second witness was and how it happened. 

 

 

[Traveler]

3 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Having lost many family and fiends in death

I'm guessing that this is not quite what you meant to say?  

 

He impressed upon me that if I bore witness that all was well with him that he could bring a second witness that would verify that my witness was true - but that my witness must be of comfort and truth.

@Traveler I'm confident that you would have fulfilled the conditions required to obtain a second witness. I hope you might be willing to share what that second witness was and how it happened. 

 

 

I am not sure how to explain this without some back story.  My brother worked prior to his mission picking pineapple (summer job) in Hawaii.  Of all siblings he was the most experience swimming in the ocean - especially off Hawaii.  Following his mission my parents took him to Hawaii for some R&R before he returned to college.  My brother took our parents to a place he had been to several times.  My parents (especially my father) was concerned because of warning signs of rip tide. 

It is important to understand that my father was extremely strong willed, workaholic that never gives up on any thing he determined to do.  For example when he became an empty nester he seriously took up competitive skiing and was ranked 2nd in the USA competition for over 65.  Most of his competitors were professional or former Olympic skiers.   It is also important to understand that this particular brother was as close to being a perfect son as is possible in this life.  Without question he was the favorite son (for additional information I am the least favored son - hopefully I will not have to explain why a child with a testimony can be a problem or a challenge).

When my brother got into trouble with the riptide my father was the only possibility to assist but the spirit spoke strongly to him that if he attempted that he also would be taken.  For my father this was akin to Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac.  It was his most difficult trial of his life.  I had spoken to my parents about my brother a number of times but as often is the case - my father could not be consoled for a few years.  About 5 years later I went my my parents back to Hawaii and we went to the very place that my brother drowned.  My parents had not been there since.  As my father explained the day to me - I once again testified all that I had learned from my brother.  The spirit was very strong and my father received the second witness through the spirit.

I am impressed to add one more aspect to all this - Part of my problem in this life is that for whatever reason I lack the compassion that other experience.  I just am not well attached to emotions.  For all the rest of my family - they were so overcome with grief for the loss of the beloved son and brother that my brother was unable to reach any of them - so he came to bring the message to me.  So of all the children, it was the least likely to be moved through who the message was given to take to the rest.  He had completed well his life calling and returned triumphant.  I know well what it is like to be overshadowed by a brother(s).

 

The Traveler

Edited November 13, 2021 by Traveler