Traveler

Neutrinos

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Not sure if anyone is even interested but some odd things are happening with new discoveries in science.  For example; for the Big Bang theory to have any creditability there had to be a brief period of "inflation" where the Universe expanded faster than the speed of light.  Among the problems are that there are many super massive Black Holes.  These objects are so massive and some have been around for so long there is no answer to how they could come into existence.  In an effort to explain some of the things being discovered there are lots of theories being circulated.  It is like we have entered an era where there is so much contradiction and confusion that anyone with a scientist title can make up anything and it appears as creditable as anything else. 

But a new theory is being developed that does make some sense and could change everything - even more than quantum physics, relativity and the standard module all combined.  This new theory involves neutrinos and that neutrinos are the key to alternate forms or kinds of matter that we lump into the category we call "Dark Matter".  To understand here is a little background.  Before nuclear energy was harnessed scientist were studying particle decay.  As a heavy atom decayed there were particles and energy given off but there was a problem.  All the matter and energy that existed before the decay did not add up to all the matter and energy that existed after the decay.  There was no explanation for this loss and it violated the very foundation of physics.

There was no explanation until someone stated the obvious and suggest a new kind of particle that we do not know about was given off.  A particle that once released did not react with anything so we could not detect it.  Some strange kind of neutral particle - thus the Latin for neutral or neutrino.   There was a lot of debate if neutrinos were real because no one could find any.  That wasn't until a scientist had a simple idea.  The idea was that using the decay of more heavy atoms we could fire neutrinos into a much lighter field of atoms and reverse the decay and detect the new rebuilt lighter atom that we knew how to find.  The concept was brilliant but when the experiment was ran - only 1/3 of the expected neutrinos were realized.  Fast forward and it turns out there are 3 flavors of neutrinos and only one will react as expected but over time as the neutrino travels (it travels at the speed of light) it alternates between the 3 flavors and it has mass but not much  - here is the calculation for it mass:         m < 0.120 eV (< 2.14 × 10−37 kg).  This is such small mass there is currently no know way to detect it.  This is why neutrinos can pass completely through just about anything without being detected.  

Neutrinos behave differently than any other kind of matter/energy that exist.  That is until someone suggested that there may be other kinds of neutrino like particles that are not zinging through the universe at the speed of light but have neutral charge and react only at the sub atomic levels (strong and weak atomic forces) and gravity.  And that this matter or kind of matter is what the dark matter stuff is.  Now things are starting to literally come together - things like very old supermassive Black Holes and even simple stars like our sun.  All we need now is the discovery of this alternate flavor(s) of neutrino kind of matter.

There is a race by physicists involved to be the first and become famous.  But I wonder and ponder that with such a discovery will also reveal G-d and how he is connected to keeping all things together for existence in our universe.  Scripture tells us that all things testify of (prove) G-d.  Maybe, just maybe, neutrinos are a new key that will not only change what we know about science but religion as well.

 

The Traveler

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Watch

 Secret Lives of Neutrinos • 2021 • episode "S9E8" • How the Universe Works

One of my favorite TV productions.

And the following quote from the same production (one of my top 10 favorite science quotes) is from Paul M. Sutter discussing the theory of inflation and particularly why it stopped inflating. 

“We don’t know. We got nothing. Well we got something. It’s tough...  It’s tough.”

00C14170-38BB-4068-8564-9A7668FEE3AB.thumb.png.09fb6e2f5072ee7bd7cbbf061e8b569b.png

These 2 episodes shouldn’t  be missed.

Edited by mikbone

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Thanks for your response @mikbone I am not sure if I have seen these episodes - I could not link to them from here - I may have seen them.

It has been known for the beginning of the BB theory that there are problems with the Big Band theory.  The initial problem is all the energy at a singular point of singularity.   There is no sign of any residual to whatever contained the singularity.  One interesting theory that had traction for a while is that the Big Bang occurred as the result of a 11 dimensional universe collapse.  The problem with this theory is where did an 11 dimensional universe come from in the first place.  This is similar to the argument concerning creation by G-d.  It is not a origin solution because where did the 11 dimensional universe (or G-d) come from - both of which create a bigger (more complex) problem of explanation.   The reason the Big Bang is still around is because it is the best explanation we have which is best explained by your quote: "We don’t know. We got nothing. Well we got something. It’s tough...  It’s tough.”   --  If anyone is interested in pursuing a discussion about the Big Bang - I would personally very much enjoy listening to other LDS viewpoints.   Since my youth I have been disappointed with the general omission in science of the effects of intelligence - which I believe is especially in play at the quantum level of physics.  Which all goes back to your quote.

But back to neutrinos.  There is something called the "Uncertainty principle" that is referenced a lot concerning quantum particles.  Neutrinos are such a problem and I think that the uncertainty principle plays a big role with neutrinos.  The problem is that neutrinos appear to travel at the speed of light but they also exhibit characteristics of mass.  Our physics (standard model) says that both cannot be true.  And so it is assumed that neutrinos travel some small (almost inconceivable) amount less than the speed of light and also contain some small (almost inconceivable) amount of mass.  I speculate that if we consider that neutrinos are traveling at the speed of light we will not be able to detect mass and if we consider the characteristics of mass we cannot include that the particle travels at the speed of light.  It is very interesting that neutrinos are released when a star goes super nova but then regardless of how far away the super nova occurs - the spike in neutrinos will reach us before the light of the super nova.  This means that neutrinos cannot travel less than the speed of light.   But the flavor of neutrinos (which changes with time) has changed.  It is believed that at the speed of light time stops so a neutrino should not experience anything related to time change. 

What I find most interesting is the theory that neutrinos are a type of "Dark Matter".

 

The Traveler

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10 hours ago, Traveler said:

It has been known for the beginning of the BB theory that there are problems with the Big Band theory. 

Joseph Smith taught that matter cannot be created or destroyed. Big bang theory teaches that matter only came into existence about 370,000 years after the big bang. Both cannot be correct. We have to either change the theology or change the astronomy.

Edited by askandanswer

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42 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

Joseph Smith taught that matter cannot be created or destroyed. Big bang theory teaches that only came into existence about 370,000 years after the big bang. Both cannot be correct. We have to either change the theology or changeb the astronomy.

Which religious tradition will fold first?

Why Berkeley Breathed Needs to Be Poet Laureate « buildingapoem

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On 10/13/2021 at 3:16 AM, Traveler said:

hy6Maybe, just maybe, neutrinos are a new key that will not only change what we know about science but religion as well.

I think there is a lot that physics, astronomy and theology can learn from each other. One example:

From theology, we learn that 

Which truth shineth.  This is the light of Christ.  As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 88:7)

From cosmology we learn

Neutrinos reveal final secret of Sun’s nuclear fusion

Detection of particles produced by the Sun’s core supports long-held theory about how our star is powered.
 
Its probable that for more informed and knowledgeable people than myself, these two ideas may be sufficient to draw some semi-tentative conclusions, which in turn could be used to build less tentative conclusions about how God does what He does, and the uses and sources of His power. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Joseph Smith taught that matter cannot be created or destroyed. Big bang theory teaches that matter only came into existence about 370,000 years after the big bang. Both cannot be correct. We have to either change the theology or change the astronomy.

Not necessarily.

The statement is:

D&C 93:29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Joseph Smith was not talking about matter as we know it.  He was talking about either the intelligence or spirit of man - neither of which can science either detect or care to acknowledge.

And from Einstein’s theory E=mc^2 we know that energy and matter are interchangeable.

Regardless, from the BB theory. We theorize  that in the beginning, all matter and energy was compressed into a singularity - state of infinite density.  So matter and energy were already there.  What was created was space.

Edited by mikbone

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bbDoctrine and Covenants teaches that

There is no such thing as immaterial matter.  All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 131:7)

Big Bang theory postulates that

“In the first moments after the Big Bang, the universe was extremely hot and dense. As the universe cooled, conditions became just right to give rise to the building blocks of matter – the quarks and electrons of which we are all made. A few millionths of a second later, quarks aggregated to produce protons and neutrons. Within minutes, these protons and neutrons combined into nuclei. As the universe continued to expand and cool, things began to happen more slowly. It took 380,000 years for electrons to be trapped in orbits around nuclei, forming the first atoms.”

https://home.cern/science/physics/early-universe

(I note that it is the nuclei, the building blocks of matter, that “trapped” or  took control over, or possession of, the energy, although it is possible that there was some form of attraction, possibly gravity, that attracted, or enticed, the electrons)

So if BB is true, and if Doctrine and Covenants 131:7 is true it would suggest that our spirits could not have existed prior to the creation of matter, which may have started 380,000 years after the BB. However, this does not answer the question about the nature or existence of intelligence, which as you have pointed out in Doctrine and Covenants 93:29 cannot be created or made. The only other “thing” that I can think of as having the property of not being able to be created or destroyed is energy. The singularity was a point of infinite energy (not matter) density. So inside the singularity, prior to the expansion, there was infinite energy and no matter. 380,00 years after the beginning of the expansion, matter began to form when energy, in the form of electrons, began to join with nuclei.   

So from the perspective of cosmology, we have one process whereby pre-existing, uncontrolled, freely roaming energy, in the form of electrons, combined with nuclei to form newly created matter, of which our spirits are made, according to Doctrine and Covenants 131:7. This meant that that energy thereby became subject to the laws which control matter. By becoming a part of matter, that energy also acquired the potential to become far more than it could have if it had continued to exist as an electron, in which state if would have remained forever if it remained by itself The combined, organized, building blocks of matter - the nuclei, consisting of protons and neutrons - took control of the pre-existing, independently existing electrons to become matter. The addition of that energy, in the form of one or more electrons to the nuclei, is what enabled that nuclei to progress to become matter.

From the perspective of theology, we have another process whereby pre-existing intelligences, which existed independently of God, combined with something, possibly matter, which, by obedience to the relevant laws, then enabled that matter to become spirits. (See Doctrine and Covenants 88:34  And again, verily I say unto you, that which is governed by law is also preserved by law and perfected and sanctified by the same.) Perhaps neither the intelligences nor the matter could have progressed on their own to become spirits without combining with each other but by combining together and by obedience to law, they acquired the ability to change and progress to a degree far greater than if they had remained alone.

These two processes may in fact be one process, viewed from different perspectives. A linking factor is the fact that neither intelligences or energy can be created or destroyed, and these are the only two things of which I think this can be said. Another possible linking factor from a cosmological perspective is that it was the matter, or its building blocks, that seem to have had the dominant role in the process, rather than the independently existing electrons, and the idea that the electrons were in some way attracted to, or enticed to combine with the nuclei. This matches well with the theological perspective that it was the components that were organized by God – the matter – that had the dominant role in the process over the intelligences, and that it was somehow a “choice” of the energy to join itself with the matter. (See 2 Nephi 2:16)

 A problem for cosmologists is what initiated the BB. A theological answer would be God, or perhaps the gods. I suspect that a lot of power would be needed to control something as powerful as a singularity and to overcome the gravity that held it bound. Perhaps assistance from other gods would have been helpful. If God was involved in the initiation of the BB, and if the whole universe was a result of the BB, that would provide a concise answer to the question of how was God able to create everything, or the question of how were the gods involved in the creation of everything.

On the first, or even the second, third or fourth readings, it might appear that this is pure, speculative nonsense. However, after a fifth reading, it might appear to be not entirely without merit and therefor worthy of further consideration.

As a side note, and I don’t won’t to get bogged down in this part of the discussion, cosmologists believe that the laws of general relativity break down at the point of singularity so whatever Einstein had to say on the subject doesn’t apply. I think this short article explains it well.

https://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae251.cfm

Edited by askandanswer

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7 hours ago, askandanswer said:

There is no such thing as immaterial matter.  All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;

When we talk about the big bang and the origin of man / God, we are on a pretty sandy foundation both scientifically and doctrinally.  

Dark matter and Dark energy can easily be categorized as immaterial matter.

0B1728B5-4997-4124-99CD-9EF2FBFD8D43.thumb.jpeg.c9cc5e0f84f5535a017a475f431c904f.jpeg

And since God is a Kardashev 6 type being, He can manipulate space, time, energy, matter & created the multiverse. 

Some scientists theorize that life and the universe as we know it are just an impressive computer simulation.  If that is so (and I think that it is an tempting idea to perceive the plan of salvation as a simulation) then there is no way that we would be able to discern god with our physical eyes...

7 hours ago, askandanswer said:

The singularity was a point of infinite energy (not matter) density. So inside the singularity, prior to the expansion, there was infinite energy and no matter. 380,00

Well this is hard to say.  

14A2CEBC-C2D5-4A2F-B59B-ABAC9A180E29.jpeg.3ed198ece38fb27da62ae1f843598654.jpeg

From the above picture, the artist is demonstrating the beginning of the universe as we know it as a nebulous cloudy something or other.  We just ldon’t know what it was.

Quote

The earliest phases of the Big Bang are subject to much speculation, since astronomical data about them are not available. In the most common models the universe was filled homogeneously and isotropically with a very high energy density and huge temperatures and pressures, and was very rapidly expanding and cooling. The period from 0 to 10−43 seconds into the expansion, the Planck epoch, was a phase in which the four fundamental forces — the electromagnetic force, the strong nuclear force, the weak nuclear force, and the gravitational force, were unified as one.[25] In this stage, the characteristic scale length of the universe was the Planck length, 1.6×10−35 m, and consequently had a temperature of approximately 1032 degrees Celsius. Even the very concept of a particle breaks down in these conditions. A proper understanding of this period awaits the development of a theory of quantum gravity.[26][27] The Planck epoch was succeeded by the grand unification epoch beginning at 10−43 seconds, where gravitation separated from the other forces as the universe's temperature fell.[25]

Due to our scientific limitations, we cannot predict the state of the universe prior to 10 -43 seconds.  We just don't know.  We lack the math to unite: General Relativity (our understanding of gravity) & Quantum mechanics (which best describes our understanding of the strong nuclear, weak nuclear, and electromagnetic forces).  We are trying to understand a theoretical Grand unified theory GUT (the combination of the strong, weak, and electromagnetic forces into a single force) which we haven't yet.  And understanding a singularity would require us to comprend the so called Theory of Everything ToE - which would allow us to unite Gravity with the GUT.  

7 hours ago, askandanswer said:

From the perspective of theology, we have another process whereby pre-existing intelligences, which existed independently of God, combined with something, possibly matter, which, by obedience to the relevant laws, then enabled that matter to become spirits. (See Doctrine and Covenants 88:34  And again, verily I say unto you, that which is governed by law is also preserved by law and perfected and sanctified by the same.) Perhaps neither the intelligences nor the matter could have progressed on their own to become spirits without combining with each other but by combining together and by obedience to law, they acquired the ability to change and progress to a degree far greater than if they had remained alone.

There are some Latter-Day Saints (count me as one) whom believe that we (spirit children of Elohim) predate the known universe.  The following quote is from Joseph Smith's April 7, 1844 general conference talk. 

Quote

Now, the word create came from the word baurau which does not mean to create out of nothing; it means to organize; the same as a man would organize materials and build a ship. Hence, we infer that God had materials to organize the world out of chaos—chaotic matter, which is element, and in which dwells all the glory. Element had an existence from the time he had. The pure principles of element are principles which can never be destroyed; they may be organized and re-organized, but not destroyed. They had no beginning, and can have no end

And Abraham 3: 24 clearly states that we assisted Jehovah in the creation of at least this Earth, more likely the Milky Way Galaxy, or even possibly the entire Universe.

I love that the temple narrative uses the term "matter unorganized."  I like to think of a  singularity as matter unorganized.

7 hours ago, askandanswer said:

 A problem for cosmologists is what initiated the BB. A theological answer would be God, or perhaps the gods. I suspect that a lot of power would be needed to control something as powerful as a singularity and to overcome the gravity that held it bound. Perhaps assistance from other gods would have been helpful. If God was involved in the initiation of the BB, and if the whole universe was a result of the BB, that would provide a concise answer to the question of how was God able to create everything, or the question of how were the gods involved in the creation of everything.

Oh this hasnt stopped them from trying.  

And this is just a 7 min clip that I looked up.  There is an entire episode on what happened before the big bang.  It gets crazy. 

Edited by mikbone

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Not a Physicist. 

In short (as the long description would be lengthy, even for my posts)

My understanding is that ALL matter was in the singularity BEFORE it was a Singularity, BUT as there were no laws of physics as we understand it, it both existed and did not exist at the same time.  Both comments could thus be the same.  It was, at the same time, both infinitely large and infinitely small, because the measurements we have in our universe did not apply and did not exist.  In the same fashion, time, and other ideas of physics we have did NOT exist, thus it would be infinitely all at the same time.

In this infinitely small and infinitely large thing you had a balance of matter and anti-matter, both existing at the same time in a balance.

For some reason we do not understand, that balance was disrupted, and each cancelled each other out...EXCEPT there was, for some reason we do not understand, a minute amount more matter than anti-matter resulting in our universe's creation and the matter universe we existing in coming into existence.

Now, there ARE theories on how this occurred, but the one that I think could pertain to the gospel is the idea that this is actually one eternal round.  It is something that occurs over and over again.  The universe expands, and then contracts until it becomes a singularity and collapses in on itself destroying space, time, and all other ideas and rules of our universe...then in that moment explodes into existence once more.  Thus, it is one continual round of contraction and expansion, the former giving birth to the next, but as time does not exist in that instant, it is also the next giving birth to the former as well.

We have heard at times that eternity is one eternal round.  There is no time, only eternity.  In the same manner we hear that things in eternity are unchanging.  You either have always been such in eternity, or not been such.  This makes sense than that certain changes MUST occur in mortality, or a temporal existence where change is possible.  With eternity being an eternal round, it is very possible that events previously give birth to events after, and events after are the birth of events previously. 

I suppose it could be confusing to a degree, but I think it actually could make sense, and though it is unproven on both ends (gospel and science), one eternal round of things actually DOES explain where things actually come from.

The hard part is that our mind isn't designed to comprehend eternity or infinity, and that includes the idea of something being an eternal round of the former giving birth to the latter while at the same time is is also the latter giving birth to the former.

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47 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

The universe expands, and then contracts until it becomes a singularity and collapses in on itself destroying space, time, and all other ideas and rules of our universe...then in that moment explodes into existence once more.  Thus, it is one continual round of contraction and expansion, the former giving birth to the next, but as time does not exist in that instant, it is also the next giving birth to the former as well.

Crunch.jpg.bc803ce0e5c3d48ae239f5605fe16cff.jpg

Yeah, that is a theory.  I don't think it is widely accepted though.  Current understanding leads us to believe that the Universe will end as a cold empty place.

 

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1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

Not a Physicist. 

In short (as the long description would be lengthy, even for my posts)

My understanding is that ALL matter was in the singularity BEFORE it was a Singularity, BUT as there were no laws of physics as we understand it, it both existed and did not exist at the same time.  Both comments could thus be the same.  It was, at the same time, both infinitely large and infinitely small, because the measurements we have in our universe did not apply and did not exist.  In the same fashion, time, and other ideas of physics we have did NOT exist, thus it would be infinitely all at the same time.

In this infinitely small and infinitely large thing you had a balance of matter and anti-matter, both existing at the same time in a balance.

For some reason we do not understand, that balance was disrupted, and each cancelled each other out...EXCEPT there was, for some reason we do not understand, a minute amount more matter than anti-matter resulting in our universe's creation and the matter universe we existing in coming into existence.

Now, there ARE theories on how this occurred, but the one that I think could pertain to the gospel is the idea that this is actually one eternal round.  It is something that occurs over and over again.  The universe expands, and then contracts until it becomes a singularity and collapses in on itself destroying space, time, and all other ideas and rules of our universe...then in that moment explodes into existence once more.  Thus, it is one continual round of contraction and expansion, the former giving birth to the next, but as time does not exist in that instant, it is also the next giving birth to the former as well.

We have heard at times that eternity is one eternal round.  There is no time, only eternity.  In the same manner we hear that things in eternity are unchanging.  You either have always been such in eternity, or not been such.  This makes sense than that certain changes MUST occur in mortality, or a temporal existence where change is possible.  With eternity being an eternal round, it is very possible that events previously give birth to events after, and events after are the birth of events previously. 

I suppose it could be confusing to a degree, but I think it actually could make sense, and though it is unproven on both ends (gospel and science), one eternal round of things actually DOES explain where things actually come from.

The hard part is that our mind isn't designed to comprehend eternity or infinity, and that includes the idea of something being an eternal round of the former giving birth to the latter while at the same time is is also the latter giving birth to the former.

@JohnsonJones what you have described from a theological perspective very closely matches what the cosmologists call the bouncing universe theory, or the big bounce theory.

In the Big Bounce theory, the universe is expanding and contracting, seesawing back and forth in a massively big-picture timeline. Some bouncers believe this happened just once, while others believe a cyclical bouncing is what makes our universe.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/deep-space/a34941841/big-bounce-universe-theory/

 

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