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Luke

Sin in the pre-mortal life - a contradiction?

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I was hoping someone could help me work through an apparent contradiction of the following three doctrinal facts:
1) that we lived in God's presence before coming to earth
2) we had free agency and most of us did not live perfect pre-mortal lives. That is we committed sin in our pre-mortal existance.
3) No unclean thing can dwell with God, in fact, God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance
 
So, how is it we lived with God if we were sinful?
 
I was trying to work through this but haven't been able to find a satisfactory explanation:
  • Perhaps sins in the pre-mortal life were more like transgressions not sins....like a child taking a toy from another child...not the same as a grown man steeling...but that didn't make sense since we had no veil over our memory and any sin committed was with our eyes wide open.
  • Then I thought, well, maybe the types of sins that get us cast out of God's presence are those that can only be committed with a physical body. But that doesn't appear to hold water since 1/3 of God's spirit children were cast out of his presence for choosing Lucifer....they didn't and never will have bodies.
  • Perhaps we didn't fully live in God's presence. Perhaps when we committed sin there was a spiritual distance put between us and God. Only problem with this is that I can't find any doctrinal/scriptural support for this.
  • My best theory is that while we could sin we could also repent. If we could repent then obviously the Atonement of Jesus Christ extended back to the pre-mortal realm....which is a pretty cool thought. But then the pre-mortal council seems to contradict this idea, that it is, it would seem that Jesus wasn't the designated Savior until this council was held. Also, baptism is part of full repentance and we can't be baptized without bodies...so was it really possible to full repent in the pre-mortal realm?
 
Anyone have a better idea to resolve this apparent contradiction?
 
 

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1 hour ago, Luke said:
I was hoping someone could help me work through an apparent contradiction of the following three doctrinal facts:
1) that we lived in God's presence before coming to earth
2) we had free agency and most of us did not live perfect pre-mortal lives. That is we committed sin in our pre-mortal existance.
3) No unclean thing can dwell with God, in fact, God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance
 
So, how is it we lived with God if we were sinful?
 
I was trying to work through this but haven't been able to find a satisfactory explanation:
 

The biggest point I can make on this topic is that we know SO LITTLE about what pre-earth life. We have little peaks at it here and there, but it is not something we can really make solid judgements and statements about. God seems to reserve revelations on different planes of existence for those existing in those planes.

why is this? Because our duty is here, not there. There won’t be a satisfactory explanation because the required information to make it doesnt exist.

That being said, this is a forum and we can surely talk about this, and I think some insights can be gained from such a conversation

1 hour ago, Luke said:
No unclean thing can dwell with God, in fact, God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance
 
So, how is it we lived with God if we were sinful?

Is my 3 year old unclean and unfit for God’s presence when he hits his sister? Of course not! Like Adam and Eve and all others under the age of 8, he isnt accountable for these decisions because he hasn’t been fully taught, nor is he even capable of understanding. But, as his father, I don’t look upon this act with allowance, no, I teach him, I discipline him. I do what I can to teach him how to be good. That doesn’t mean I kick him out the door and tell him to come back when he is righteous. Same with God. He doesn’t look on sin with allowance, but that doesn’t mean we are removed from his presence when we fall short.

1 hour ago, Luke said:

Anyone have a better idea to resolve this apparent contradiction?

I believe whole heartedly that the affects of the atonement are all encompassing and can reach back to pre-mortal life.

As for sin and uncleanliness in pre-mortal life, for the purpose of my explanation, there are three types of motivations that lead us to do wrong. weakness, pride, and rebellion. God’s grace covers weakness and pride so-long we are trying to grow, but rebellion is the motivation that keeps us out of God’s presence. 

The third of the host of Heaven seemed to be the group that rebelled. Rejected Heavenly Father entirely and all that he offered. 

At the end of the day, the gospel, the purpose of life, and all that we are here to do has everything to do with what we want. God provides some options, we pick which one we want, and we are blessed/cursed with whatever else comes along with that decision

Edited by Fether

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Like @Fether said there is much we don't know. For example, using John's definition of sin: "for sin is the transgression of the law," (1John 3:4) we must ask ourselves, what laws existed in the premortal world? Obviously there must have been "natural laws" that governed the development of spiritual beings, which if obeyed progression followed but if not then it didn't. But I interpret the laws as referenced by John as those that come by way of commandment from God. And do we know of any commandments given in the premortal world? The only one that comes to mind that might qualify was at the grand council when the plan of salvation was presented. And we know what happened to those who rebelled. Of course, there may have a myriad of other commandments that we just don't know of. But what if there wasn't? Then sin would not be a foregone conclusion. But my point is that we just can't assume really anything but what has been revealed. 

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3 hours ago, Luke said:
I was hoping someone could help me work through an apparent contradiction of the following three doctrinal facts:
1) that we lived in God's presence before coming to earth
2) we had free agency and most of us did not live perfect pre-mortal lives. That is we committed sin in our pre-mortal existance.
3) No unclean thing can dwell with God, in fact, God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance
 
So, how is it we lived with God if we were sinful?
 
I was trying to work through this but haven't been able to find a satisfactory explanation:
  • Perhaps sins in the pre-mortal life were more like transgressions not sins....like a child taking a toy from another child...not the same as a grown man steeling...but that didn't make sense since we had no veil over our memory and any sin committed was with our eyes wide open.
  • Then I thought, well, maybe the types of sins that get us cast out of God's presence are those that can only be committed with a physical body. But that doesn't appear to hold water since 1/3 of God's spirit children were cast out of his presence for choosing Lucifer....they didn't and never will have bodies.
  • Perhaps we didn't fully live in God's presence. Perhaps when we committed sin there was a spiritual distance put between us and God. Only problem with this is that I can't find any doctrinal/scriptural support for this.
  • My best theory is that while we could sin we could also repent. If we could repent then obviously the Atonement of Jesus Christ extended back to the pre-mortal realm....which is a pretty cool thought. But then the pre-mortal council seems to contradict this idea, that it is, it would seem that Jesus wasn't the designated Savior until this council was held. Also, baptism is part of full repentance and we can't be baptized without bodies...so was it really possible to full repent in the pre-mortal realm?
 
Anyone have a better idea to resolve this apparent contradiction?
 
 

There are many point in your post to deal with.  Most of them are terms that I do not think are well defined.  For example unclean and I will deal first with this concept that no unclean thing can be in the presents of G-d.  You made a partial reference to a child.  We know that without accountability that children are "clean" and therefore can be in the presents of G-d.  Another problem is sin.  Scripture tells us that sin is a transgression of the Law.  But without accountability there is no Law.

Another term you use is free agency - this is not the same as free will but is a power or ability that is granted to us from G-d.  The Power of Agency is dependent on knowledge.  Knowledge and Agency are obtained through covenant.  Knowledge (which is the light of truth) is only obtained by covenant and power of the Light of Christ.

Another problem you have is the concept that 1/3 of The Father's children were cast out with Lucifer.  The scriptures that provide this information tell is that it was a third part not 1/3.  The ancient world did not have the mathematical foundation to understand fractions.  What we should understand is that the Kingdom of Heaven was divided into 3 parts - there is no revelation that tells us that the parts were equal parts.

The final point I will make in this post has to do with what is righteousness as opposed to what is wickedness.  The righteous are those that make and keep covenants with G-d.  The Wicked are those that oppose and break their covenants with G-d.  

As we understand the pre-existence we understand that we were taught light and truth while in the presents of G-d.  We know from the Pearl of Great Price that at least 2 groups are identified.  The first are called the Nobel and Great and the others are those that rebelled against the Law of Heaven and were cast out.  I believe we can assume that the third group are those that entered into covenant but were not "Nobel and Great".  It is also important to note that following the flood of Noah that mankind on earth were divided into 3 groups - represented by the 3 sons of Noah - and so we have the covenant, the Gentiles and the infidels (or covenant breakers).  We can also note that in the resurrection that the judgment will divide mankind once again into 3 kingdoms of Glory.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler

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On 10/14/2021 at 7:29 AM, Luke said:
I was hoping someone could help me work through an apparent contradiction of the following three doctrinal facts:
1) that we lived in God's presence before coming to earth
2) we had free agency and most of us did not live perfect pre-mortal lives. That is we committed sin in our pre-mortal existance.
3) No unclean thing can dwell with God, in fact, God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance
 
So, how is it we lived with God if we were sinful?
 
I was trying to work through this but haven't been able to find a satisfactory explanation:
  • Perhaps sins in the pre-mortal life were more like transgressions not sins....like a child taking a toy from another child...not the same as a grown man steeling...but that didn't make sense since we had no veil over our memory and any sin committed was with our eyes wide open.
  • Then I thought, well, maybe the types of sins that get us cast out of God's presence are those that can only be committed with a physical body. But that doesn't appear to hold water since 1/3 of God's spirit children were cast out of his presence for choosing Lucifer....they didn't and never will have bodies.
  • Perhaps we didn't fully live in God's presence. Perhaps when we committed sin there was a spiritual distance put between us and God. Only problem with this is that I can't find any doctrinal/scriptural support for this.
  • My best theory is that while we could sin we could also repent. If we could repent then obviously the Atonement of Jesus Christ extended back to the pre-mortal realm....which is a pretty cool thought. But then the pre-mortal council seems to contradict this idea, that it is, it would seem that Jesus wasn't the designated Savior until this council was held. Also, baptism is part of full repentance and we can't be baptized without bodies...so was it really possible to full repent in the pre-mortal realm?
 
Anyone have a better idea to resolve this apparent contradiction?

Maybe not a better idea, but where is the scriptures does it say that we sinned in the pre-existence?

There was a rebellion by spirits who lived in the presence of God, but that rebellion seems to have constituted following Lucifer, who first left His presence and drew many after him. The war was about keeping God's children in His presence. I think perhaps Lucifer separating himself from the presence of God in the pre-existence was akin to Adam to Eve's hiding from the Lord after partaking of he forbidden fruit. But physical presence is not the same as spiritual influence: God influences us this fallen spheres and we reach up to Him without being in His physical presence. Likewise, presumably, during this war in heaven, Lucifer and his followers reached into the higher sphere they had abandoned through physically distanced spiritual influence, similarly to how they influence those of us in this relatively higher mortal sphere from theirs today.

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6 minutes ago, CV75 said:

where is the scriptures does it say that we sinned in the pre-existence?

Much like most of what is being asked, this is all conjecture. The war in Heaven certainly suggests there was some capability to rebel and fight against God. I highly doubt it was complete and utter submission to the law or full rebellion. Also, Alma 13 talks about spirits who were valiant, which suggests some were less valiant.

I think there is more evidence for there being sin than not being sin (Perhaps “transgression” or “weakness that resulted in poor decisions” may be a better descriptor)

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56 minutes ago, Fether said:

Much like most of what is being asked, this is all conjecture. The war in Heaven certainly suggests there was some capability to rebel and fight against God. I highly doubt it was complete and utter submission to the law or full rebellion. Also, Alma 13 talks about spirits who were valiant, which suggests some were less valiant.

I think there is more evidence for there being sin than not being sin (Perhaps “transgression” or “weakness that resulted in poor decisions” may be a better descriptor)

It seems that the children of God are not cut off from His presence until they are fully ripe (Ether 2:15), which final determination was made for the devil and his angels when they were cast out, and which will be made again for those of us who made into mortality by degrees (and some of these kingdoms do not enjoy the personal, physical presence of God)  in the final judgement. Thus in the pre-existence, it seems that God did not look upon sin with the least degree of allowance (as He does with us here), but allowed the spirits to choose sin and/or departure until they were formally deemed ineligible for mortality and cast out. The other faithful and willing spirits were deemed eligible, and here we are!

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11 minutes ago, CV75 said:

it seems that God did not look upon sin with the least degree of allowance (as He does with us here), but allowed the spirits to choose sin and/or departure until they were formally deemed ineligible for mortality and cast out. The other faithful and willing spirits were deemed eligible, and here we are!

Yep! I agree with this

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On 10/14/2021 at 7:29 AM, Luke said:
I was hoping someone could help me work through an apparent contradiction of the following three doctrinal facts:
1) that we lived in God's presence before coming to earth
2) we had free agency and most of us did not live perfect pre-mortal lives. That is we committed sin in our pre-mortal existance.
3) No unclean thing can dwell with God, in fact, God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance
 
So, how is it we lived with God if we were sinful?
 
I was trying to work through this but haven't been able to find a satisfactory explanation:
  • Perhaps sins in the pre-mortal life were more like transgressions not sins....like a child taking a toy from another child...not the same as a grown man steeling...but that didn't make sense since we had no veil over our memory and any sin committed was with our eyes wide open.
  • Then I thought, well, maybe the types of sins that get us cast out of God's presence are those that can only be committed with a physical body. But that doesn't appear to hold water since 1/3 of God's spirit children were cast out of his presence for choosing Lucifer....they didn't and never will have bodies.
  • Perhaps we didn't fully live in God's presence. Perhaps when we committed sin there was a spiritual distance put between us and God. Only problem with this is that I can't find any doctrinal/scriptural support for this.
  • My best theory is that while we could sin we could also repent. If we could repent then obviously the Atonement of Jesus Christ extended back to the pre-mortal realm....which is a pretty cool thought. But then the pre-mortal council seems to contradict this idea, that it is, it would seem that Jesus wasn't the designated Savior until this council was held. Also, baptism is part of full repentance and we can't be baptized without bodies...so was it really possible to full repent in the pre-mortal realm?
 
Anyone have a better idea to resolve this apparent contradiction?
 
 

RE: your last bullet:

Sin without a devil allows for repentance without a Savior and this seems to have been the case during the earlier stages of our pre-mortal development. As the intelligences that were co-eternal with God progressed to the point of participating in the council and the war that followed (i.e., they became accountable without aging), Jesus and Lucifer, being at the forefront, formulated how they would become like our Father and advocated two very different routes.

Edited by CV75

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On 10/14/2021 at 9:56 AM, laronius said:

Like @Fether said there is much we don't know. For example, using John's definition of sin: "for sin is the transgression of the law," (1John 3:4) we must ask ourselves, what laws existed in the premortal world? Obviously there must have been "natural laws" that governed the development of spiritual beings, which if obeyed progression followed but if not then it didn't. But I interpret the laws as referenced by John as those that come by way of commandment from God. And do we know of any commandments given in the premortal world? The only one that comes to mind that might qualify was at the grand council when the plan of salvation was presented. And we know what happened to those who rebelled. Of course, there may have a myriad of other commandments that we just don't know of. But what if there wasn't? Then sin would not be a foregone conclusion. But my point is that we just can't assume really anything but what has been revealed. 

Interesting point.  I hadn't thought of it that way.  Makes a lot of sense.

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On 10/14/2021 at 9:59 AM, Traveler said:

There are many point in your post to deal with.  Most of them are terms that I do not think are well defined.  For example unclean and I will deal first with this concept that no unclean thing can be in the presents of G-d.  You made a partial reference to a child.  We know that without accountability that children are "clean" and therefore can be in the presents of G-d.  Another problem is sin.  Scripture tells us that sin is a transgression of the Law.  But without accountability there is no Law.

Another term you use is free agency - this is not the same as free will but is a power or ability that is granted to us from G-d.  The Power of Agency is dependent on knowledge.  Knowledge and Agency are obtained through covenant.  Knowledge (which is the light of truth) is only obtained by covenant and power of the Light of Christ.

Another problem you have is the concept that 1/3 of The Father's children were cast out with Lucifer.  The scriptures that provide this information tell is that it was a third part not 1/3.  The ancient world did not have the mathematical foundation to understand fractions.  What we should understand is that the Kingdom of Heaven was divided into 3 parts - there is no revelation that tells us that the parts were equal parts.

The final point I will make in this post has to do with what is righteousness as opposed to what is wickedness.  The righteous are those that make and keep covenants with G-d.  The Wicked are those that oppose and break their covenants with G-d.  

As we understand the pre-existence we understand that we were taught light and truth while in the presents of G-d.  We know from the Pearl of Great Price that at least 2 groups are identified.  The first are called the Nobel and Great and the others are those that rebelled against the Law of Heaven and were cast out.  I believe we can assume that the third group are those that entered into covenant but were not "Nobel and Great".  It is also important to note that following the flood of Noah that mankind on earth were divided into 3 groups - represented by the 3 sons of Noah - and so we have the covenant, the Gentiles and the infidels (or covenant breakers).  We can also note that in the resurrection that the judgment will divide mankind once again into 3 kingdoms of Glory.

 

The Traveler

I had to read your reply a couple times...wow, the 3 groups a very different way of looking at things.  Not sure I totally accept that as I've never heard that taught anywhere else and it seems that church authorities often interpret this scripture to mean 1/3 of God's children.  But I hope your understanding is right...the idea that 1/3 of our brothers and sisters are going to suffer the most awful torment imaginable for the rest of eternity....makes me want to weep like Enoch. 

Back to the actual topic:  the idea of our pre-mortal existance like our spiritual childhood and mortal life as our spiritual adolescence when our decisions have the greatest effect on our final path as adults makes a lot of sense to me.  So perhaps as spiritual children sin and accountability were different.

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52 minutes ago, Luke said:

I had to read your reply a couple times...wow, the 3 groups a very different way of looking at things.  Not sure I totally accept that as I've never heard that taught anywhere else and it seems that church authorities often interpret this scripture to mean 1/3 of God's children.  But I hope your understanding is right...the idea that 1/3 of our brothers and sisters are going to suffer the most awful torment imaginable for the rest of eternity....makes me want to weep like Enoch. 

While the heavens truly did weep when Lucifer and his followers fell there is much we don't know in terms of the vastness of his influence. Even if it was one third of the children of God who followed Satan I think it is safe to say it was only one third of those assigned to this earth. But what of the other multitude of earths peopled with God's children? Some believe the worst and also the best were saved for this earth, where Jehovah and Lucifer were present. Though that thought is unsubstantiated I think it makes a case that Satan's third could actually be just a very small percentage of the total of all of God's children. Numerically it's still a large number but percentage wise it could in fact be less than one percent. Who knows? But as @Traveler pointed out there are still questions as to what a third part actually means.

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On 10/14/2021 at 8:59 AM, Traveler said:

Another problem you have is the concept that 1/3 of The Father's children were cast out with Lucifer.  The scriptures that provide this information tell is that it was a third part not 1/3.  The ancient world did not have the mathematical foundation to understand fractions.  What we should understand is that the Kingdom of Heaven was divided into 3 parts - there is no revelation that tells us that the parts were equal parts.

The final point I will make in this post has to do with what is righteousness as opposed to what is wickedness.  The righteous are those that make and keep covenants with G-d.  The Wicked are those that oppose and break their covenants with G-d.  

As we understand the pre-existence we understand that we were taught light and truth while in the presents of G-d.  We know from the Pearl of Great Price that at least 2 groups are identified.  The first are called the Nobel and Great and the others are those that rebelled against the Law of Heaven and were cast out.  I believe we can assume that the third group are those that entered into covenant but were not "Nobel and Great".  It is also important to note that following the flood of Noah that mankind on earth were divided into 3 groups - represented by the 3 sons of Noah - and so we have the covenant, the Gentiles and the infidels (or covenant breakers) . . .

From my understanding there were three parts of God's children (and you are right that it was a third part that rebelled against the LORD and were cast out and not necessarily 33%).  There were the valiant, the less valiant and the rebellious in the hosts of heaven in the premortal life.  (Reference the book Jesus the Christ for these teachings.)  I believe that the rebellious were the smallest part of God's children.

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I would touch on the discussion about a third part just a little bit.  Anciently the mathematical paradigm used did not have fractions nor a zero.  Today, in number theory we call their mathematical capability - counting numbers.  If we look at the Roman number system (not the most advanced at the time but by far an example of the most used) - one will note that there is no Roman numeral zero nor are there fractions.  We see this reflected in scripture.  For example: we are told that Christ was in the tomb for 3 days; from Friday night to Sunday morning.  In modern terms the exact time did not even amount to 2 twenty four hour days and would be more accurate to say one and one half days.

In addition certain numbers used in ancient scriptures were also symbolic of things different than numbers as used in modern times.  For example the number 70 also had a similar meaning to our modern intent for infinite.   So when Jesus said we forgive 70 times 7 it did not mean 490 and then we do not have to forgive anymore.  

But we have another problem in understanding that is somewhat highlighted in this thread.  I will try to explain.  We were spirits.  The ability of spirits to learn and respond to "intelligence" or the light of truth seem to be very different than physical mortals blinded somewhat by a veil of forgetfulness.   The scriptures tell us that there is no forgiveness for a certain kind of sins - the scriptures tell us that this sin for which there is no forgiveness is to sin against the light and truth of the Holy Ghost.  I speculate that this means that the unforgivable sin is to deny the truth in the very light and knowledge of that truth.    In other words to fully understand the light of truth - and then with knowledge of even the consequences, to lie, deny or attempt to misrepresent that truth - which is the intelligent light of truth is something that cannot be forgiven because there is no possibility of repentance.

I must say that I have pondered this a great deal and it is difficult to understand why an intelligent thinking being would ever try to lie and misrepresent truth in the full light of knowing the consequences.   The difference between our current state and our pre-existence state is in our current state we really do not know much of anything.  Since we live by faith - I can understand that a person will repent based on their actions that contain some degree of uncertainty - thus the more is learned or understood - a change of thought and intent could be quite likely.  But if a choice is made with the pure light of truth - there is nothing left to ever change that choice.  The only reason a choice can be change is because something being considered is changed.  But in the full light of truth all considerations are present - so such a choice cannot be changed because there is no agent for a change.  If there is a change in such a choice it can only be because the previous choice was not actually a choice.  Thus whatever the agent was that caused the choice to change would render the previous choice false - which could only be is something was missing from the initial choice.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler

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On 10/14/2021 at 7:29 AM, Luke said:

2) we had free agency and most of us did not live perfect pre-mortal lives. That is we committed sin in our pre-mortal existance.

According to this article and another, the more appropriate term to use is "moral agency".

From what I can see from the church's Gospel Principles manual in chapters 2&4, spirit 
children had moral agency in the pre-mortal life.  Their choices were between good and 
evil there.  There was a limit to progression there so they had to come to earth.

"Our Heavenly Father knew we could not progress beyond a certain point unless we left 
Him for a time" (page 10).

"In our premortal life we had moral agency" (page 17).

"Without the gift of agency, we would have been unable to show our Heavenly Father 
whether we would do all that He commanded us".

"As we obey each of our Father’s commandments, we grow in wisdom and strength of 
character. Our faith increases. We find it easier to make right choices. We began 
to make choices as spirit children in our Heavenly Father’s presence. Our choices 
there made us worthy to come to earth".

"We cannot choose righteousness unless the opposites of good and evil are placed 
before us".

Matteo

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On 10/14/2021 at 4:29 AM, Luke said:
I was hoping someone could help me work through an apparent contradiction of the following three doctrinal facts:
1) that we lived in God's presence before coming to earth
2) we had free agency and most of us did not live perfect pre-mortal lives. That is we committed sin in our pre-mortal existance.
3) No unclean thing can dwell with God, in fact, God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance
 
So, how is it we lived with God if we were sinful?
 
I was trying to work through this but haven't been able to find a satisfactory explanation:
  • Perhaps sins in the pre-mortal life were more like transgressions not sins....like a child taking a toy from another child...not the same as a grown man steeling...but that didn't make sense since we had no veil over our memory and any sin committed was with our eyes wide open.
  • Then I thought, well, maybe the types of sins that get us cast out of God's presence are those that can only be committed with a physical body. But that doesn't appear to hold water since 1/3 of God's spirit children were cast out of his presence for choosing Lucifer....they didn't and never will have bodies.
  • Perhaps we didn't fully live in God's presence. Perhaps when we committed sin there was a spiritual distance put between us and God. Only problem with this is that I can't find any doctrinal/scriptural support for this.
  • My best theory is that while we could sin we could also repent. If we could repent then obviously the Atonement of Jesus Christ extended back to the pre-mortal realm....which is a pretty cool thought. But then the pre-mortal council seems to contradict this idea, that it is, it would seem that Jesus wasn't the designated Savior until this council was held. Also, baptism is part of full repentance and we can't be baptized without bodies...so was it really possible to full repent in the pre-mortal realm?
 
Anyone have a better idea to resolve this apparent contradiction?
 
 

The atoning sacrifice of Christ is infinite and eternal. It’s manifold blessings of salvation extend forever into the past and forever into the future. This is why the Bible tells us the Savior was slain even before the world was. Any spiritual progress toward holiness that was achieved by the spirit children of God in the pre-earth life was only realized through their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, just as it is in this phase of our existence. Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever.

Edited by Jersey Boy

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