Equal in heavenly things


laronius
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D&C 78:5-6 That you may be equal in the bonds of heavenly things, yea, and earthly things also, for the obtaining of heavenly things. For if ye are not equal in earthly things ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things;

This section is a revelation on the establishment of a storehouse, I'm assuming what we now call a bishop's storehouse, for helping the poor. When it speaks of being equal in earthly things I interpret that to be referring to the law of consecration (though feel free to expound if you have a different interpretation). But what does it mean to be equal in heavenly things? And what is the connection with being equal in earthly things?

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1 hour ago, laronius said:

D&C 78:5-6 That you may be equal in the bonds of heavenly things, yea, and earthly things also, for the obtaining of heavenly things. For if ye are not equal in earthly things ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things;

This section is a revelation on the establishment of a storehouse, I'm assuming what we now call a bishop's storehouse, for helping the poor. When it speaks of being equal in earthly things I interpret that to be referring to the law of consecration (though feel free to expound if you have a different interpretation). But what does it mean to be equal in heavenly things? And what is the connection with being equal in earthly things?

I think being equal in heavenly things refers to membership in the Church of the Firstborn, joint-heirs with Christ. Being equal in earthly things, under the law of consecration, means we abide the law in the proper spirit. The terminology in D&C 51 is, "every man equal according to his family, according to his circumstances and his wants and needs." So context, circumstance and subjectivity are considered as well as quantity of goods, requiring a high degree of spirituality to live "after the manner of happiness" (2 Nephi 5: 10-17, 27); as no happier people, having the love of God in their hearts (4 Nephi 1: 15-18); and following the principles of Zion where there are no poor among them.

Edited by CV75
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But what does it mean to be equal in heavenly things? And what is the connection with being equal in earthly things?

We receive "all" the Father hath through Christ. In that sense, and as said above we are joint-heirs with Christ, we are equal in heavenly things. The connection, a theory, is the doctrine that all things were spiritual before they were temporal. We are to pattern this life (earthly things) after our pre-mortal life (spiritual things); after the manner which the Lord has set.

This connection also weaves the doctrine of being "one."

 

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Sometimes I am not sure we understand many revelations in scripture that we can make many of the assumptions that we sometimes do.  I am not sure what it means to be equal in all things.  Lets look at some scriptures.  In Abraham chapter 3 we are told in essence that if two things exist one will be greater than the other.  Jesus tells us that in his Father's house there are many mansions.  We are told in scripture that there are 3 degrees of glory and that with the resurrection we will be "judged" according to our works.  There are two places that we are commanded that we be one.  One place is that we should be one with G-d.  We are also commanded to be one flesh with our spouse.  In addition we are told by our prophets that we are equal in our marriage.   

In mathematical terms - the term equal is defined such that if two things are equal one may be substituted for the other and  that there are no differences.  I am not sure that the mathematical concept of equal applies to spiritual things.  But then I am not sure I understand what is a spiritual thing or how any earthly thing can be equal to any other earthly thing.  

I do not know how to share earthly things to make them equal.  If someone is using an earthly thing it is impossible for me to utilize it as well in that very moment.  If I am responsible for something earthly - I do not know how it can be that someone else is responsible as well.  As for eternal things concerning justice - I do not know how I can be responsible for a sin and yet someone else (Christ) justly redeem the consequences for that sin.   I am not saying that I do not believe Jesus redeemed our sins - only that I do not understand how that is possible.  I have some ideas but I cannot say I have resolved all my questions. I should be sure that my sins are forgiven - I have been told this in many blessings and the spirit whispers that Christ paid for my sins but I cannot say I understand how.

I seek answers to know how to make my earthly and spiritual things "equal" but I must admit that I do not understand nor can I make sense of it.

 

The Traveler

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On 10/24/2021 at 5:21 PM, CV75 said:

I think being equal in heavenly things refers to membership in the Church of the Firstborn, joint-heirs with Christ. Being equal in earthly things, under the law of consecration, means we abide the law in the proper spirit. The terminology in D&C 51 is, "every man equal according to his family, according to his circumstances and his wants and needs." So context, circumstance and subjectivity are considered as well as quantity of goods, requiring a high degree of spirituality to live "after the manner of happiness" (2 Nephi 5: 10-17, 27); as no happier people, having the love of God in their hearts (4 Nephi 1: 15-18); and following the principles of Zion where there are no poor among them.

On 10/24/2021 at 8:33 PM, Anddenex said:

But what does it mean to be equal in heavenly things? And what is the connection with being equal in earthly things?

We receive "all" the Father hath through Christ. In that sense, and as said above we are joint-heirs with Christ, we are equal in heavenly things. The connection, a theory, is the doctrine that all things were spiritual before they were temporal. We are to pattern this life (earthly things) after our pre-mortal life (spiritual things); after the manner which the Lord has set.

This connection also weaves the doctrine of being "one."

 

I find it interesting that in the Book of Mormon the point is specifically made that extreme inequality can lead to a break up in society. We also read in the scriptures about the importance of equal claim and equal privilege. This is equality on a qualitative level. Equal opportunity though not necessarily equal outcome. The law of consecration is intended to meet the needs of individuals with no respect to how much that need may be. Again qualitative, not quantitative oriented. 

But when it comes to heavenly things we read of being jount-heirs with Christ and receiving all that the Father hath, suddenly quantitative matters. And then in the scriptures we read of differing level of talents and differing levels of fruitfulness where each is labeled faithful and seem to be rewarded equally qualitatively but obviously they are not equal quantitatively.

Part of the reason for the law of consecration is scarcity. If there was an unlimited amount of everything we needed then meeting needs would be no problem. But scarcity does not exist in heavenly things, at least that I know of, nor is one person necessarily dependent on another in obtaining them. And yet we are still required  to "be equal in obtaining heavenly things." Well the justice/mercy of God automatically guarantees equal opportunity in this respect. And yet our being equal in earthly things still apparently has some bearing on it. 

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19 hours ago, Traveler said:

Sometimes I am not sure we understand many revelations in scripture that we can make many of the assumptions that we sometimes do.  I am not sure what it means to be equal in all things.  Lets look at some scriptures.  In Abraham chapter 3 we are told in essence that if two things exist one will be greater than the other.  Jesus tells us that in his Father's house there are many mansions.  We are told in scripture that there are 3 degrees of glory and that with the resurrection we will be "judged" according to our works. 

The Traveler

This is definitely an interesting element in the doctrine of equality. Like I mentioned in the above post different quantitative levels of development seem to be rewarded equally but we also know that our ability to receive a gift, i.e. eternal life, is limited to our actual ability to "receive" it. It makes me wonder if there is not two different applications of the principle being perfected in Christ. One being the eventual condition of becoming perfect and the other being a temporary, exaltation enabling union with Christ, a condition where we all are in that regard equal with Him and each other. 

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9 minutes ago, laronius said:

This is definitely an interesting element in the doctrine of equality. Like I mentioned in the above post different quantitative levels of development seem to be rewarded equally but we also know that our ability to receive a gift, i.e. eternal life, is limited to our actual ability to "receive" it. It makes me wonder if there is not two different applications of the principle being perfected in Christ. One being the eventual condition of becoming perfect and the other being a temporary, exaltation enabling union with Christ, a condition where we all are in that regard equal with Him and each other. 

Thank for your thoughts and thread  - I think there may be confusion over terms like equal and equality and it is currently politically used.  You touched on the difference between equal opportunity and outcome.  I think there is some discussion of intelligence spirits being equal in the beginning but through Agency reaching different outcomes.

You also talked about a gift and receiving a gift.  I would go somewhat beyond this in reference to Moroni chapter 10 (after the first part of the chapter is is most often quoted).  Moroni finishes his final words and uses the term "exhort" several times concerning gifts - in particular gifts of the spirit.  He does this in relationship to being perfect.  It is my belief that there are several terms used in scripture that are synonymous.   Listing theses synonymous terms: perfect, complete, whole, holy, , born again, saved, one (ehad - in Hebrew) and sanctified. 

One of the terms that I think is often overlooked is the concept of "one".  Often we are reminded that we cannot be caved without our dead.  I believe this applies as well as those living - some of who have yet to repent and if and when any effort is made by anyone to come unto Christ.  In short - the Plan of Salvation is not just a gift from G-d to us but in part is a gift from us to all mankind. 

 

The Traveler

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19 hours ago, laronius said:

I find it interesting that in the Book of Mormon the point is specifically made that extreme inequality can lead to a break up in society. We also read in the scriptures about the importance of equal claim and equal privilege. This is equality on a qualitative level. Equal opportunity though not necessarily equal outcome. The law of consecration is intended to meet the needs of individuals with no respect to how much that need may be. Again qualitative, not quantitative oriented. 

But when it comes to heavenly things we read of being jount-heirs with Christ and receiving all that the Father hath, suddenly quantitative matters. And then in the scriptures we read of differing level of talents and differing levels of fruitfulness where each is labeled faithful and seem to be rewarded equally qualitatively but obviously they are not equal quantitatively.

Part of the reason for the law of consecration is scarcity. If there was an unlimited amount of everything we needed then meeting needs would be no problem. But scarcity does not exist in heavenly things, at least that I know of, nor is one person necessarily dependent on another in obtaining them. And yet we are still required  to "be equal in obtaining heavenly things." Well the justice/mercy of God automatically guarantees equal opportunity in this respect. And yet our being equal in earthly things still apparently has some bearing on it. 

I think out attitude about earthly things affects our attitude about heavenly things. This is why we need to put off the natural man as the opportunity presents itself. The natural man approaches earthly things differently than the spiritually reborn man. Quality of attitude (not quantity of attitude -- what does that mean, anyway? :) ) is spiritually driven, affected by earthly or heavenly things, for better or worse.

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1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I think out attitude about earthly things affects our attitude about heavenly things. This is why we need to put off the natural man as the opportunity presents itself. The natural man approaches earthly things differently than the spiritually reborn man. Quality of attitude (not quantity of attitude -- what does that mean, anyway? :) ) is spiritually driven, affected by earthly or heavenly things, for better or worse.

Yes, we often want to separate our spiritual life from our physical/temporal life but God does not see it that way. They are too closely connected and it comes down to which part of us is in charge. We cannot serve two masters. 

And by the way I know people who have lots of attitude. Sometimes that's me. 😃

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1 hour ago, laronius said:

Yes, we often want to separate our spiritual life from our physical/temporal life but God does not see it that way. They are too closely connected and it comes down to which part of us is in charge. We cannot serve two masters. 

And by the way I know people who have lots of attitude. Sometimes that's me. 😃

Yes, that is why I think spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy... separate, or even "separably" connected, they do not.

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There is speculation on the City of Enoch in many academic circles.  There is an idea that they were ALL equal in rank, faith, and belief.

This would mean there were no Popes, Bishops, Cardinals, Deacons or any other that had religious authority over any other, as they ALL we equal in rank and authority.  They ALL had equal power, but they acted in unison because they were one in faith, belief, and action regarding the Lord.  They KNEW the mind of the Lord and thus ACTED in Unison in accord with that.  There was no ranking system, no system of unequals. 

In that same light, just ONE of them could move mountains, hold armies, and be equal to any force on Earth.  ALL of them united were a thing beyond what we could even imagine. 

In a Just society, this idea would actually be an ideal, but in our material based world seems almost a foreign idea to most people on this earth.  We are caught up in pride, prestige, and putting one over the other rather than true equality among all, thus unless one truly would have the Judeo-Christian Deity to help them, it would seem impossible to achieve.  However, we know from the scriptures it WAS achieved.

BECAUSE they all had such great faith and were united with the Lord in thought and deed as they were with each other, they were taken up. 

HOWEVER...this is mere speculation, but it shows an idea of how a group of believers could all be equal in spirituality and faith while at the same time equal in earthly gains as well.

Edited by JohnsonJones
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2 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

There is speculation on the City of Enoch in many academic circles.  There is an idea that they were ALL equal in rank, faith, and belief.

I don't think I've heard that theory before. To me it seems like there would still need to be callings filled for order's sake but I think you are right in that the people of Enoch were able to achieve that level of unity we have been discussing. Imagine a community where everyone was just as concerned about their neighbor's wellbeing as their own. That to me is the definition of heaven on earth. 

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4 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

There is speculation on the City of Enoch in many academic circles.  There is an idea that they were ALL equal in rank, faith, and belief.

 

2 hours ago, laronius said:

I don't think I've heard that theory before. To me it seems like there would still need to be callings filled for order's sake but I think you are right in that the people of Enoch were able to achieve that level of unity we have been discussing. Imagine a community where everyone was just as concerned about their neighbor's wellbeing as their own. That to me is the definition of heaven on earth. 

I have heard variations of such a theory but with quite a different twist.  I have heard the idea that the kingdom of heaven and Zion societies, such as the City of Enoch and the City of Salem are all ordered and organized much like the stakes of Zion.  That callings are temporary and that a king or someone of great importance is released with a vote of thanks and may be called to next help with the small children in the nursey.   In other words that there are positions of rank but all callings are considered to be important and that those that serve, serve as equals regardless of position of service.

I can relate and like the idea that a calling of president is to be viewed no more important than a primary worker or organizer for cleaning the church building, or greeter or whatever.  That all callings and positions come with the honor of service and sacrifice.  But for someone outside the spirit of callings - that those in more seemingly prestigious callings - appear to have the greater honor in their service.

 

The Traveler

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