clbent04

Does the Church Have a Pension?

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Asking for my aunt who has served in the Church most her life primarily working in temple administration for the last 20 years. Her position at the temple is paid, and she is 75 now and is needing to figure out retirement. She doesn’t have any savings since the little amount of money she did have she’s used to help cover the funeral expenses for several of her loved ones. Would the Church help her even if it doesn’t have a formal, agreed upon pension plan in place with her? I know about the welfare program, but isn’t that supposed to be relied upon only temporarily? Would the Church be able to take care of her on a permanent basis?

Edited by clbent04

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51 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Asking for my aunt who has served in the Church most her life primarily working in temple administration for the last 20 years. Her position at the temple is paid, and she is 75 now and is needing to figure out retirement. She doesn’t have any savings since the little amount of money she did have she’s used to help cover the funeral expenses for several of her loved ones. Would the Church help her even if it doesn’t have a formal, agreed upon pension plan in place with her? I know about the welfare program, but isn’t that supposed to be relied upon only temporarily? Would the Church be able to take care of her on a permanent basis?

Yes.  Is she eligible?  Maybe.  She needs to contact Human Resources to get that information.  Have her check into the medical benefits post retirement as well.

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14 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

Yes.  Is she eligible?  Maybe.  She needs to contact Human Resources to get that information.  Have her check into the medical benefits post retirement as well.

She said she was gonna check with the temple GA tomorrow. It’d be sad if she didn’t qualify for something considering she really doesn’t have anything and has always served faithfully in the Church. I’m just not familiar whatsoever with how the church takes care of it’s long-term employees upon retirement, and apparently she isn’t familiar either which is why she just started looking into it

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2 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Asking for my aunt who has served in the Church most her life primarily working in temple administration for the last 20 years. Her position at the temple is paid, and she is 75 now and is needing to figure out retirement. She doesn’t have any savings since the little amount of money she did have she’s used to help cover the funeral expenses for several of her loved ones. Would the Church help her even if it doesn’t have a formal, agreed upon pension plan in place with her? I know about the welfare program, but isn’t that supposed to be relied upon only temporarily? Would the Church be able to take care of her on a permanent basis?

The church has the best ever retirement plan - but, unfortunately the bulk of it will not be paid out until we retire from mortality. 

 

The Traveler

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Oh my.  It's been 20 years since I paid attention, but last time I checked, nobody went into a paying job with the church because they were seeking all of the lucrative benefits.  20 yrs ago, church pay scale was like bottom quarter.

Your grandma really lived to 75 without ever giving any thought about retirement?  I find that hard to believe.  But if it's true, it might be time for a family meeting to figure out how to take care of her, since she never seemed to give taking care of herself a second's thought...

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3 minutes ago, Traveler said:

The church has the best ever retirement plan - but, unfortunately the bulk of it will not be paid out until we retire from mortality. 

Yeah, and being employed by the church doesn't do much to bump up even that plan. 

Another way of putting it - I've encountered a person or two who confused working for the church, with some sort of special stewardship over the rest of humanity.  Folks knew this to be true, because the job holder kept telling everyone who would listen.  You know the folks who get pulled over for speeding in Utah, and give the cop their temple recommend, fully expecting to be let off the hook?  Same sort of attitude.  

Surely @clbent04's grandma never came within a thousand miles of such an attitude.  But there are some.  

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8 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Yeah, and being employed by the church doesn't do much to bump up even that plan. 

Another way of putting it - I've encountered a person or two who confused working for the church, with some sort of special stewardship over the rest of humanity.  Folks knew this to be true, because the job holder kept telling everyone who would listen.  You know the folks who get pulled over for speeding in Utah, and give the cop their temple recommend, fully expecting to be let off the hook?  Same sort of attitude.  

Surely @clbent04's grandma never came within a thousand miles of such an attitude.  But there are some.  

Now I am confused - I have always thought that in Utah - if your are pulled over for whatever, that a temple recommend was next to required.  Now I am not sure why I have thought it important to always have my temple recommend with me - especially in Utah?????

 

The Traveler

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46 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Now I am confused - I have always thought that in Utah - if your are pulled over for whatever, that a temple recommend was next to required.  Now I am not sure why I have thought it important to always have my temple recommend with me - especially in Utah?????

 

The Traveler

My wife was issued her first Temple/Living Ordinance Recommend today.   I'll tell her to keep it with her license.

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2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Oh my.  It's been 20 years since I paid attention, but last time I checked, nobody went into a paying job with the church because they were seeking all of the lucrative benefits.  20 yrs ago, church pay scale was like bottom quarter.

Your grandma really lived to 75 without ever giving any thought about retirement?  I find that hard to believe.  But if it's true, it might be time for a family meeting to figure out how to take care of her, since she never seemed to give taking care of herself a second's thought...

She’s an aunt, and not a blood aunt, but someone I consider family nonetheless. I can’t speak to how good of a steward she’s been with her resources, but I can say she’s put others’ needs first ahead of her own. So maybe a good steward in the eyes of the Lord, and a poor steward under the man-made money game. 

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Not completely informed on the subject, but what little I can find...

The Church has a retirement plan for employees on top of the 401K they can contribute to.  I believe this applies to full-time employees and I am uncertain if all temple staff positions qualify.  I think it depends on what they are coded. 

It sounds like the retirement is 8% on top of whatever their 401K contributions they have made.  Like many other organizations today, it is more dependent on employee donations to their retirement funds.

The retirement funds I think are currently handled by DMBA.

Their contact from their pdf and website is

Quote

Our office hours are 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. (Mountain Time) on weekdays, except for Wednesdays when office hours begin at 9 a.m. You can visit our website anytime to access your personalized benefit information.

Local number ....................801-578-5600

Toll free ...............................800-777-3622

Website ...............................www.dmba.com

The pamphlet on retirements...

Dmba Retiree General Information PDF

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10 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Asking for my aunt who has served in the Church most her life primarily working in temple administration for the last 20 years. Her position at the temple is paid, and she is 75 now and is needing to figure out retirement. She doesn’t have any savings since the little amount of money she did have she’s used to help cover the funeral expenses for several of her loved ones. Would the Church help her even if it doesn’t have a formal, agreed upon pension plan in place with her? I know about the welfare program, but isn’t that supposed to be relied upon only temporarily? Would the Church be able to take care of her on a permanent basis?

That is for the family to do, not the Church. As someone else stated, time for a family meeting.

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On 10/31/2021 at 9:45 AM, clbent04 said:

Asking for my aunt who has served in the Church most her life primarily working in temple administration for the last 20 years. Her position at the temple is paid, and she is 75 now and is needing to figure out retirement. She doesn’t have any savings since the little amount of money she did have she’s used to help cover the funeral expenses for several of her loved ones. Would the Church help her even if it doesn’t have a formal, agreed upon pension plan in place with her? I know about the welfare program, but isn’t that supposed to be relied upon only temporarily? Would the Church be able to take care of her on a permanent basis?

My remarks are only based off of what has been written in the question, so there are things I may be missing. I am also aware that they may seem harsh.

The church does have a retirement program, and a very generous one at that. It is not a traditional pension. Some parts of it the church may have set up for her automatically. Others, she would have needed to participate in or lose out on the funds. For example, a 401k plan requires employees to set things up in order to get automatic withdrawals and an employer match in place. As JJ mentioned, there is a separate plan of approximately 8% that some of the church entities contribute to whether or not you open a 401k, but it depends on which entity you work for. She should contact her HR dept ASAP.

Sadly, your Aunt should not be thinking about retirement at age 75...that begins when you start employment. Everyone, including recent college grads, should be, right now, contributing a good portion of their income towards retirement. If you are not, then you do not get a retirement. Such a concept is very, very young in the world, but a concept is all it is, not a right or given circumstance. No one deserves retirement. No one is entitled to retirement. You work, save, and plan for it. Many people in the world still do not get a retirement - they work in some form or fashion until they die. That was the norm for thousands of years all across the world.

Covering funeral expenses is a noble and important thing to do with one's money, however, it does not entitle her to additional income from her employer for the rest of her life. Ultimately, she chose to spend her money in that fashion. She cannot except others to solve problems that she has chose to kick down the road. Although it isn't much, she will get some Social Security benefits. Hopefully she is also out of debt.

The welfare program is only meant to be temporary - a safety net to catch us when we fall. It is not, and should not be used, for permanent long-term assistance. The church does not support anyone indefinitely for any reason. Now, if she is truly going to starve, her ward can put in a food order from time to time, but as MM above me said, her family needs to be the first line of defense.

 

Off topic a bit, but I have seen a troubling trend the last 18 months or so of people thinking that they do not need food storage or to be prepared in any way for future events because they falsely believe the church will be there for them. Not true. The church's plan is for people to be self-sufficient...to properly exercise their agency. Five of the Ten virgins had oil in their lamps, while the other five did not. All 10 of them were worthy to be at the supper of the Bridegroom, but only 5 were physically prepared for the long haul. The bulk of that parable is spiritual in nature, but it holds many temporal truths as well.

Edited by scottyg
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15 hours ago, mirkwood said:

Newsflash.  Handing a police officer your TR instead of your DL is going to antagonize the officer.  Just sayin'.

On the extremely few occasions that I have officially dealt with a police officer in Utah - my impression has been that nothing ever seems to antagonize  or rattle them - but it is possible that this is my fault.  I may not have much of a threating or intimidating persona. Kind of like Barney Fife. 

 

The Traveler

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8 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

I hide my irritation, as do most officers, when the TR comes out.  I'm still  telling you not to do it.  I guarantee you were not asked to show it...so don't.

People actually do this? If I were an officer of the law, this would irritate me enough to where I would always have a little coke baggy on hand ready to plant on these fools.

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4 hours ago, scottyg said:

My remarks are only based off of what has been written in the question, so there are things I may be missing. I am also aware that they may seem harsh.

The church does have a retirement program, and a very generous one at that. It is not a traditional pension. Some parts of it the church may have set up for her automatically. Others, she would have needed to participate in or lose out on the funds. For example, a 401k plan requires employees to set things up in order to get automatic withdrawals and an employer match in place. As JJ mentioned, there is a separate plan of approximately 8% that some of the church entities contribute to whether or not you open a 401k, but it depends on which entity you work for. She should contact her HR dept ASAP.

Sadly, your Aunt should not be thinking about retirement at age 75...that begins when you start employment. Everyone, including recent college grads, should be, right now, contributing a good portion of their income towards retirement. If you are not, then you do not get a retirement. Such a concept is very, very young in the world, but a concept is all it is, not a right or given circumstance. No one deserves retirement. No one is entitled to retirement. You work, save, and plan for it. Many people in the world still do not get a retirement - they work in some form or fashion until they die. That was the norm for thousands of years all across the world.

Covering funeral expenses is a noble and important thing to do with one's money, however, it does not entitle her to additional income from her employer for the rest of her life. Ultimately, she chose to spend her money in that fashion. She cannot except others to solve problems that she has chose to kick down the road. Although it isn't much, she will get some Social Security benefits. Hopefully she is also out of debt.

The welfare program is only meant to be temporary - a safety net to catch us when we fall. It is not, and should not be used, for permanent long-term assistance. The church does not support anyone indefinitely for any reason. Now, if she is truly going to starve, her ward can put in a food order from time to time, but as MM above me said, her family needs to be the first line of defense.

 

Off topic a bit, but I have seen a troubling trend the last 18 months or so of people thinking that they do not need food storage or to be prepared in any way for future events because they falsely believe the church will be there for them. Not true. The church's plan is for people to be self-sufficient...to properly exercise their agency. Five of the Ten virgins had oil in their lamps, while the other five did not. All 10 of them were worthy to be at the supper of the Bridegroom, but only 5 were physically prepared for the long haul. The bulk of that parable is spiritual in nature, but it holds many temporal truths as well.

It's all good advice you're saying here, but if the person in need of support was someone in the scriptures like Paul, would this advice be just as applicable?  Sorry, Paul, should've thought about contributing to that matching 401K before giving your only pair of shoes away to the other homeless guy on the street.

For those who truly live selflessly in this life at the cost of not building up a nice little nest egg for themselves, how can we fault them when their treasure isn't of this Earth?

She's meeting with the temple GA to discuss if she hasn't already. I think cases like these would be reviewed on a case-by-case basis.  How has this person lived their life?  What have they used their money for?  How long have they been in the employment of the Church?  

When I think of my aunt, I think of Matthew 6:26 in relation to how she's lived her life:

Quote

Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

She said she hasn't received any promptings to retire yet, so maybe she will work until she draws her last breath.  She's barely able to cover her living expenses right now with social security and her paycheck from the Church, so I really don't see how retirement is possible without help.

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So, dealing with temporal realities ought to be based on gospel truths, absolutely.  That said, Matthew 6:26 is probably the most out-of-context scripture to quote on the subject of retirement possible.  You gotta go to places like Matthew 25 for some good guidance on secular matters in a spiritual context.  If she (and anyone else in your extended family) has really been thinking Matt 6:26 is a "get out of planning for retirement free card", y'all need to take a quick roller-coaster ride straight down into the hard concrete of reality.

1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

She's meeting with the temple GA to discuss if she hasn't already. I think cases like these would be reviewed on a case-by-case basis.  How has this person lived their life?  What have they used their money for?  How long have they been in the employment of the Church?  

Anyone thinking church HR is going to act like a loving General Authority when dealing with your aunt's exit from employment, holy crap do they have some hard times ahead. 

Keep this thread updated with how things progress with your aunt.  I truly hope it won't be like watching a slow-motion train wreck happening.  But if it is, perhaps we might be able to help once people start thinking "how could the church do this to her".

Edited by NeuroTypical

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1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

It's all good advice you're saying here, but if the person in need of support was someone in the scriptures like Paul, would this advice be just as applicable?  Sorry, Paul, should've thought about contributing to that matching 401K before giving your only pair of shoes away to the other homeless guy on the street.

For those who truly live selflessly in this life at the cost of not building up a nice little nest egg for themselves, how can we fault them when their treasure isn't of this Earth?

She's meeting with the temple GA to discuss if she hasn't already. I think cases like these would be reviewed on a case-by-case basis.  How has this person lived their life?  What have they used their money for?  How long have they been in the employment of the Church?  

When I think of my aunt, I think of Matthew 6:26 in relation to how she's lived her life:

She said she hasn't received any promptings to retire yet, so maybe she will work until she draws her last breath.  She's barely able to cover her living expenses right now with social security and her paycheck from the Church, so I really don't see how retirement is possible without help.

Do you mean the Temple President, or one of the GA's that serve on the church temple committee? It is very unlikely that either one would even try go outside of the keys held by her Stake President and Bishop to try and get her temporal assistance. Could they as her employer give her a "severance package" or something like that to help out...possibly, but unlikely. Because then they would have to do that for everyone who failed to thoroughly plan out their finances, and many more folks would simply not do it knowing that the church would bail them out.

Wouldn't it be a great thing if the church gave all of it's income (every single penny) to the poor and homeless next year? Many, many people would be helped...it would largely be the greatest single financial donation the world has ever seen. However, that would be the end of the church's giving. They would be giving zero dollars in the following years while they replenished their storehouses. If the church didn't invest their income, and save for a rainy day, then all of the charity would cease.

If your aunt has truly been so selfless her entire life then that is to be commended, and she will very likely have great treasures in the next life. But, that does not mean that my tithing and fast offerings are now meant to support her until she dies. That first comes from family, or continuing to work until retirement is a financial option. The love of money is obviously not a temptation for her...but managing it is also not a talent she seems to have developed.

I do hope everything works out.

Edited by scottyg

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20 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

So, dealing with temporal realities ought to be based on gospel truths, absolutely.  That said, Matthew 6:26 is probably the most out-of-context scripture to quote on the subject of retirement possible.  You gotta go to places like Matthew 25 for some good guidance on secular matters in a spiritual context.  If she (and anyone else in your extended family) has really been thinking Matt 6:26 is a "get out of planning for retirement free card", y'all need to take a quick roller-coaster ride straight down into the hard concrete of reality.

I was quoting Matthew 6:26 more of a reference to the kind of faith she lives by, not her or my personal opinion of prudent retirement preparation. 

20 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Anyone thinking church HR is going to act like a loving General Authority when dealing with your aunt's exit from employment, holy crap do they have some hard times ahead. 

I imagine the church's HR department isn't much different than any HR department of any business.  My aunt's only hope here in getting retirement assistance from the church is the possibility of a GA being able to successfully advocate on her behalf.  She alone wouldn't be able to do much with the HR department, and I didn't mean to suggest that if that's how you initially read it.

20 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I truly hope it won't be like watching a slow-motion train wreck happening.  But if it is, perhaps we might be able to help once people start thinking "how could the church do this to her".

I'll keep it updated with what I find out.  I hope the church would help her considering her circumstances.  Regardless of if the church helps her or not, it's interesting to consider what responsibility should the church have towards it's lifetime employees?  Of course, the straightforward answer is the church will conduct itself as the church sees fit, but I'd like to understand better where the line is for who the church takes care of vs. those it doesn't. 

Does the church only permanently take care of the living expenses for those who are invited to live the law of consecration?  

Edited by clbent04

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7 minutes ago, scottyg said:

Do you mean the Temple President, or one of the GA's that serve on the church temple committee?

I'm actually not sure who she is going to check with since I reread her text message and it simply says she's meeting with a GA for temple review and training assignments, and that the following day she is going to ask what her options are, but she didn't specifically say who she is going to ask.  I just assumed it was the GA she was meeting with.

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4 hours ago, clbent04 said:

For those who truly live selflessly in this life at the cost of not building up a nice little nest egg for themselves, how can we fault them when their treasure isn't of this Earth?

I don't know if we can really fault them, but I've noticed an odd little pattern among some very generous and selfless people: some of them are so generous and desiring to help others they are incapable of helping themselves. I know of a girl who has become a burdern to her landlady because she spends all her money on helping those less of than her that she can't eat healthy, can't maintain a job, can't pay her rent, etc. 

While it's nice to trust in God to take care of one as the lilies of the field, we must balance this with the aforementioned principle of self-sufficiency.

I'm sure they'll be blessed in many ways of helping others, but at the end of the day that doesn't pay the bills from Caeser. 

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5 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Does the church only permanently take care of the living expenses for those who are invited to live the law of consecration?  

Honestly, I've never heard of the church permanently taking care of the living expenses for anybody, ever, outside of maybe the law of consecration.  And I've been a ward clerk for almost a decade, and an internet toer-and-froer for 3 times as long. Apostles that get called, are asked if they have sufficient means to take care of their own needs, after leaving their ways of earning a living in order to dedicate the rest of their lives to church service. 

The church preaches self-sufficiency.  We don't do anything like a "widows and orphans fund".  Church welfare is short term only. 

I'm horrified that people might be out there living their lives, carefree and happy, thinking the church is going to take care of them when they need it.   What a scary prospect.

Edited by NeuroTypical

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8 hours ago, mirkwood said:

I hide my irritation, as do most officers, when the TR comes out.  I'm still  telling you not to do it.  I guarantee you were not asked to show it...so don't.

 

8 hours ago, clbent04 said:

People actually do this? If I were an officer of the law, this would irritate me enough to where I would always have a little coke baggy on hand ready to plant on these fools.

I must admit that I thought all this was being said, tongue in cheek.  If and when such occurs - I believe if I was @mirkwood in such a situation that I would be in grave danger of laughing to death.  In addition - any genius trying this kind of thing is obviously not doing such out of an abundance of experience.  It would be most difficult after writing out the ticket - not to smile really big and thank the person for making my job and day so much more fun.

 

The Traveler

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