Kyle Rittenhouse


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20 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

In fairness to Kyle:  My understanding of his testimony is that this was night 3 of the Kenosha riots.  He had been out and about in Kenosha on day 2 or 3 and had met the owners of a car lot who had had some property destroyed; they exchanged numbers and he invited them to let him know if he could do anything for them in the future.  Later, they called either him or a mutual acquaintance and asked him to come down and help out (primarily with fire suppression, IIRC); he grabbed the gun, not because he intended to fire or even brandish it, but as insurance in case someone attacked his person.  (The lot owners denied under oath that they had invited him onto their property, but other witnesses corroborated Kyle’s story.)

Now, if I’d learned my kid had gone down there that night with a gun—even if nothing had happened—that gun would absolutely be on eBay first thing in the morning.  But, I don’t think it’s fair to suggest he was trying to play the tough guy/vigilante.  I think first and foremost he had seen a heartbroken victim of previous rioting/looting, wanted to help out, and didn’t want to get killed in the process of doing it.  

You can't sell guns on E-Bay anymore.

Not even toy guns.

I have some vintage cap guns (we're talking 1950s) I was looking to unload, but the week after they came into my possession E-Bay changed the rules in that regards. I don't know of anyone locally who will give me a fair deal on them. 

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https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/homenews/media/582568-kyle-rittenhouse-i-support-the-blm-movement%3famp
 

Apparently he’ll be on Tucker Carlson tonight. It’s a reminder of how good it is to be alive in 2021. 30 years ago the MSM wouldn’t have touched this kid, unless to tear into him 

Edited by LDSGator
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One can hope some folks give some good hard thought to the difference between protesting, which is an inalienable right protected by the constitution, and rioting, which is a crime that should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

All last year, I saw person after person I knew, who didn't get that distinction.  I was emboldened that they were all to the left of me - I was happy that me and my side got it.  Then things culminated in January 6th rush on the capitol, and suddenly I'm surrounded by my friends on the right who all of a sudden didn't understand the concept.  And I became sad.

Now I worry that we'll find a 2022 where there will be growing numbers of people believing the system is too broken to fix, too evil to tolerate, and that breaking laws is a justified response.  I'm worried it'll start with Darrell Edward Brooks Jr.

https://www.newsweek.com/darrell-brooks-identified-waukesha-christmas-parade-suspect-1651770 

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20 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Now I worry that we'll find a 2022 where there will be growing numbers of people believing the system is too broken to fix, too evil to tolerate, and that breaking laws is a justified response

I’m not. People say the same thing after social unrest, but we often forget that social unrest happened in the 60’s and we moved on. It happened in the 70’s and we moved on. It happened in the 80’s….you get my drift. Heck, the reason we did’t hear about massive riots in the 40’s was because there was a little war going on. 
 

There will always be bad things happening in our society NT. From the dawn of time till now. I highly highly doubt this will lead to mass vigilantism and more lawlessness, at least in the long term. 

Edited by LDSGator
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33 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

One can hope some folks give some good hard thought to the difference between protesting, which is an inalienable right protected by the constitution, and rioting, which is a crime that should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

All last year, I saw person after person I knew, who didn't get that distinction.  I was emboldened that they were all to the left of me - I was happy that me and my side got it.  Then things culminated in January 6th rush on the capitol, and suddenly I'm surrounded by my friends on the right who all of a sudden didn't understand the concept.  And I became sad.

Now I worry that we'll find a 2022 where there will be growing numbers of people believing the system is too broken to fix, too evil to tolerate, and that breaking laws is a justified response.  I'm worried it'll start with Darrell Edward Brooks Jr.

https://www.newsweek.com/darrell-brooks-identified-waukesha-christmas-parade-suspect-1651770 

I think the reason I’m skeptical of a “growing number of people thinking the system is unfixable” is because I heard the same thing, almost verbatim, after the Zimmerman (remember him?) trial down here. It’s been years since people worried about that after he was found not guilty and yet, Florida keeps chugging along. No mass riots, no mass lawlessness. We can still go to Disney, restaurants, meet with family, play football in the park, go to church. In other words, after the initial unrest, life always continues and goes back to normal. 

Edited by LDSGator
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Someone brought up a take on the whole Rittenhouse news that I hadn't considered.  Folks who bear the burden of having been sexually assaulted, or know someone who has, know how it can sometimes bring a lifelong struggle to just live on the same planet as their rapist.  There are three men out there, in their late '20's or early '30's, who heard the news that their rapist got himself shot to death while rioting in Kenosha.   While one can hope they don't take savage glee in the fact, I absolutely hope they are able to use the news to heal a bit more. 

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1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

I think the reason I’m skeptical of a “growing number of people thinking the system is unfixable” is because I heard the same thing, almost verbatim, after the Zimmerman (remember him?) trial down here. It’s been years since people worried about that after he was found not guilty and yet, Florida keeps chugging along. No mass riots, no mass lawlessness. We can still go to Disney, restaurants, meet with family, play football in the park, go to church. In other words, after the initial unrest, life always continues and goes back to normal. 

I lived through all the eras you have spoken about.  I experienced coming home from the army on leave (we were required to wear the uniform while traveling - especially for the military discount travel rates) during the very unpopular Vietnam era.  I ended up in an altercation for no other reason than my uniform.  To this day I do not think the situation could have been avoided - I also do not like remembering it.

But recently it does seem to me there is an escalation of division going on.  The division also seems to me to be more pronounced in news coverage, political parties, attitudes at universities and braising attitudes at demonstrations.  I would agree that the basis of such things is not new but it does seem to be increasing.  I do recall the attack on temple square when a bomb was placed at one of the east facing doors of the SLC temple.  There was not that much damage to the very thick wooden door but it blew the mettle door knob off.  Turned out to be a very backwater extreme anti group.   I am also aware that security for the general authorities has significantly increased since then.  For example, prior to my mission I was downtown SLC and happened to meet President David O. McKay on the street.  We stopped and briefly talked and shook hands.  Both of us were alone on the street in front of the old Church office building.  Today the first presidency and apostles are never in public without armed security.

I was taught by my parents to overlook incidents - especially in investing - but to rather look at trends.  I remember my parents talking about friends and that I should learn to pay attention to trends rather than current conditions to determine such things as trust.  I have since observed many good and faithful members of the church begin a trend that over the years has taken them far away from the church and deep into apostasy.  I have also observed many "broken" individuals (even with criminal records and horrible habits and addictions) begin a trend towards Christ that has taken them on a journey to holiness and joy in Christ (much like the book "Mifia to Mormon").  I have learned that what a person's station is - is not near as important as the trend or path they are following.

I believe the Book of Mormon is a guide for our day.  For hundreds of years the Nephite civilization stood strong and upheld freedoms and liberties through the trials of many generations and secret combinations.  All of which I believe to be a microcosm of our day and time. And yet the Nephite civilization fell and was no more in just a trend of one generation.  I am quite sure that violence will increase as the time for the return of Christ comes near - and that there will be violence even within families - that it will not be uncommon for sons to fight against their father and brothers against brothers.  I will also add that the sisters of humanity will also be involved.  Moroni lamented how, just within his limited lifetime he saw the hearts of men turn cold and become bloodthirsty for revenge.   More and more in popular culture I see that trend to define justice as revenge - especially violent revenge.  It appears to me that trends are escalating and not becoming more calm. 

When I have been white water rafting - I believe that activity taught great life lessons.  One lesson I think applies is that what ever has taken place on the river and regardless of how easy or difficult it has been the single most important focus always needs to be towards what will happen or is coming next and to be ready.  It does seem to me that our prophets are continually warning us of increasing tribulations and trials. 

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
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8 minutes ago, Traveler said:

  I ended up in an altercation for no other reason than my uniform.  To this day I do not think the situation could have been avoided - I also do not like remembering it.

I’m sorry that happened to you, totally uncalled for. And to be fair, all of us here have moments we don’t like to think of, so you aren’t alone my friend. 

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2 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

I’m sorry that happened to you, totally uncalled for. And to be fair, all of us here have moments we don’t like to think of, so you aren’t alone my friend. 

I am most sorry that I hurt someone more than at any other time of my life.

 

The Traveler

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I have witnessed the hardening of mankind's hearts over the last two and a half decades.  The last 5-6 years has been worse.  The last 2 or so has been chilling in how people act and treat each other.  Society is becoming cold hearted towards one another in greater degrees.

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9 hours ago, mirkwood said:

I have witnessed the hardening of mankind's hearts over the last two and a half decades.  The last 5-6 years has been worse.  The last 2 or so has been chilling in how people act and treat each other.  Society is becoming cold hearted towards one another in greater degrees.

Indeed many horrible things have happened over the years, decades and centuries.  Something horrible happening is not an indicator that things are getting worse...  The indicator that things are getting worse is that we are not uniting in the face of the horrible things and collectively condemning them...  Rather too many on all sides (depending on which horror) are trying to justify it as Ok, or not that bad, or only fair or expected because of X...

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13 hours ago, mirkwood said:

Kyle is no hero. 

Interesting. What definition are you using for "hero"? Putting oneself in harm's way to help one's neighbors seems like a pretty good definition. And that is exactly what he seemed to be doing. So...yeah...I stand by my opinion.

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Kyle is a teenager who made a number of questionable decisions, though I do not believe with any intent to do harm.  He got the "grand idea" to go to the neighboring city that was burning to the ground.  A city abandoned by the mayor to rioters protesting a death at the hands of the police.  A city with a curfew.  A city where police and fire services were overwhelmed and frankly ineffective.  Kyle had minimal medical training and basically no life experience.  So what did he do?  He walked into that storm to see how he could help.  The actions of an incredibly naive and foolish child...not a hero.

 

He was still justified in defending himself though.

 

 

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11 hours ago, estradling75 said:

Indeed many horrible things have happened over the years, decades and centuries.  Something horrible happening is not an indicator that things are getting worse...  The indicator that things are getting worse is that we are not uniting in the face of the horrible things and collectively condemning them...  Rather too many on all sides (depending on which horror) are trying to justify it as Ok, or not that bad, or only fair or expected because of X...

 

I'm glad you cannot see the bad around you.  It means we are still effective at what we do.  You're welcome.

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15 hours ago, mirkwood said:

Kyle is a teenager who made a number of questionable decisions, though I do not believe with any intent to do harm.  He got the "grand idea" to go to the neighboring city that was burning to the ground.  A city abandoned by the mayor to rioters protesting a death at the hands of the police.  A city with a curfew.  A city where police and fire services were overwhelmed and frankly ineffective.  Kyle had minimal medical training and basically no life experience.  So what did he do?  He walked into that storm to see how he could help.  The actions of an incredibly naive and foolish child...not a hero.

 

He was still justified in defending himself though.

 

 

Pretty much.

He never should have been there in the first place, and he likely didn't even know any of the people who came after him until they came after him, so he did what little he thought he could to defend himself. 

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21 minutes ago, Ironhold said:

Pretty much.

He never should have been there in the first place, and he likely didn't even know any of the people who came after him until they came after him, so he did what little he thought he could to defend himself. 

He never should have felt he needed to be there, in my opinion.  Neither should he have felt he needed to show up to clean the town in previous days.  Alas, people make choices and others react to them.  Some feel the need to destroy, others feel the need to repair the destruction or prevent it from happening.

 

Edited by Grunt
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https://nypost.com/2021/11/24/travis-mcmichael-found-guilty-in-ahmaud-arbery-trial/?utm_campaign=iphone_nyp&utm_source=pasteboard_app
 

and in other trial news….

 

Two correct outcomes in our jury system today, but since it’s a holiday this one will be largely ignored. 
 

I hope both cases are warning signs for people who want to play hero/defender. It’s not worth it. 

Edited by LDSGator
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30 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

https://nypost.com/2021/11/24/travis-mcmichael-found-guilty-in-ahmaud-arbery-trial/?utm_campaign=iphone_nyp&utm_source=pasteboard_app
 

and in other trial news….

 

Two correct outcomes in our jury system today, but since it’s a holiday this one will be largely ignored. 
 

I hope both cases are warning signs for people who want to play hero/defender. It’s not worth it. 

The cases have zero in common.

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8 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

. . . and in other trial news….

I agree 100% that they were in the wrong and that they are guilty of something.  The problem is, I don't think they are guilty of murder in the same way King Lamoni was guilty of murder, nor in the way Nehor was guilty of murder, nor in the way David was.  It saddens me that our justice system isn't equipped or wasn't willing to handle the difference based on the charges.  The good news is that Christ knows and understands all the nuanced differences of sin and grievous acts and will be able to resolve these things for both the living and the dead when He comes.

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