Kyle Rittenhouse

[Traveler]

6 hours ago, LDSGator said:

It’s sad how the media spins stories like this. Thankfully it was in the 60’s before social media could blow it up. 

Historically it is more likely that information is biased and inaccurate.    I to not see the advent of social media making it easier to find the truth.

 

The Traveler

[LDSGator]

21 hours ago, Traveler said:

Historically it is more likely that information is biased and inaccurate.    I to not see the advent of social media making it easier to find the truth.

 

The Traveler

? 
 

[LDSGator]

On 11/24/2021 at 4:34 PM, Suzie said:

the Ahmaud Arbery case, justice was served as well. It is truly sickening what they did to this guy. Kudos to the mother of the victim who fought hard!!

We got em. All three were sentenced to LWOP. This shows that vigilantism, playing tough guy and taking the law into your own hands has consequences. Sadly though, it cost an innocent man his life. 
 

https://trib.al/Ux9fRaX?fbclid=IwAR3WzG2frZeoJuICjjo_s3SxgVUCVBcoZaYgq3WRzUn7mLGZdp_VNPI01FQ

[Backroads]

23 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

We got em. All three were sentenced to LWOP. This shows that vigilantism, playing tough guy and taking the law into your own hands has consequences. Sadly though, it cost an innocent man his life. 
 

https://trib.al/Ux9fRaX?fbclid=IwAR3WzG2frZeoJuICjjo_s3SxgVUCVBcoZaYgq3WRzUn7mLGZdp_VNPI01FQ

This pleased me. I still can't wrap my head around what they were thinking. 

Edit: The death didn't please me. The verdict pleased me. 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Backroads

[Just_A_Guy]

27 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

We got em. All three were sentenced to LWOP. This shows that vigilantism, playing tough guy and taking the law into your own hands has consequences. Sadly though, it cost an innocent man his life. 
 

https://trib.al/Ux9fRaX?fbclid=IwAR3WzG2frZeoJuICjjo_s3SxgVUCVBcoZaYgq3WRzUn7mLGZdp_VNPI01FQ

The neighbor, I think, has the possibility of parole.

Ordinarily I’d say “fine”; but even Bobby Kennedy’s shooter seems likely to get parole after a few decades (as murderers in drug-deals-gone bad, gang hits, child abuse cases, etc routinely do); which makes me worry that there is some measure of arbitrariness/politicization in how these things (ie “life in prison without parole”) are being addressed. 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Just_A_Guy

[LDSGator]

9 minutes ago, Backroads said:

This pleased me. I still can't wrap my head around what they were thinking. 

Edit: The death didn't please me. The verdict pleased me. 

Understand fully. 

 

9 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

The neighbor, I think, has the possibility of parole.

Ordinarily I’d say “fine”; but even Bobby Kennedy’s shooter seems likely to get parole after a few decades (as murderers in drug-deals-gone bad, gang hits, child abuse cases, etc routinely do); which makes me worry that there is some measure of arbitrariness/politicization in how these things (ie “life in prison without parole”) are being addressed. 

Yeah it’s tough for me too. Initially my “gut” (ironic, given @Fether’s thread) says “Good, those pieces of garbage deserve it.” But I can admit that the neighbor who just filmed it might not deserve life with no parole. That said, I’m not going to lose sleep over it either. The neighbor should have thought about the classic saying “You are known by the company you keep.”

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

Understand fully. 

 

Yeah it’s tough for me too. Initially my “gut” (ironic, given @Fether’s thread) says “Good, those pieces of garbage deserve it.” But I can admit that the neighbor who just filmed it might not deserve life with no parole. That said, I’m not going to lose sleep over it either. The neighbor should have thought about the classic saying “You are known by the company you keep.”

I realize that in this mortal life we will make mistakes in justice.  I have had discussions about flaws in justice.  A person once said to me that they would prefer that 99 murders be set free than to convict to death one innocent person.  I responded to that by saying that I would prefer being the one innocent person put to death rather than having 99 murders set free (knowing they all got away scot free with murder)  in the neighborhood of my wife, children and beloved friends (I now have grandchildren).  I then said I felt badly that they though so little of those that the love and care about.

My point is that if we cannot trust the law to protect us (including and especially those of certain minorities) then our laws do not serve us.  Under our law we are suppose to be considered innocent until we are proven guilty IN A COURT OF LAW.  Obviously there are many in our society that do not believe in this element of the law.  I am less concerned what others think of the law than I am concerned how I live the law. I believe that the important thing we should understand about this life is that we will all stand before G-d to make an account of our mortality.  At that time I believe everybody will get a get out of jail free card to play as we see fit.  How we play that card and how we feel about how others play that card will be more important than everything else we have done up until then.  In other words the spirit that guides us now is likely to continue to guide us even when we are forgiven of all our mistakes.

 

The Traveler 

[NeuroTypical]

In other news, the trucker who caused a 28 car crash in CO and killed four people, had his 110 year sentence commuted to 10 years by Colorado Governor Polis.  

https://www.cpr.org/2022/01/05/i70-truck-driver-sentence-commuted-victims-judge-respond/

Humans try hard for justice.  What we end up with, is a weird, inconsistent hodge-podge of "the best we could do", with a different set of "we" every time the call is made.

[LDSGator]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

My point is that if we cannot trust the law to protect us (including and especially those of certain minorities) then our laws do not serve us

Oh agree, but the ship is starting to right itself, and this verdict proves it. If you want to be a racist in 2022 you better keep it to yourself or you’ll suffer huge consequences.
 

 A major pet peeve of mine is when northerners lecture southerners about race….then blatantly ignore their own troubled racial history or worse, go back to their all white suburbs. I’ve seen this happenmany, many times. 

Edited January 8, 2022 by LDSGator

[LDSGator]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

Humans try hard for justice.  What we end up with, is a weird, inconsistent hodge-podge of "the best we could do", with a different set of "we" every time the call is made.

All true, but as corny as this sounds I think America has the greatest justice system in the world. Amazingly, those who complain the loudest about it seldom leave. 

[Traveler]

4 hours ago, LDSGator said:

Oh agree, but the ship is starting to right itself, and this verdict proves it. If you want to be a racist in 2022 you better keep it to yourself or you’ll suffer huge consequences.
 

 A major pet peeve of mine is when northerners lecture southerners about race….then blatantly ignore their own troubled racial history or worse, go back to their all white suburbs. I’ve seen this happenmany, many times. 

There are some that put forward the idea that minorities cannot be racist.  

Also those that study history realize that most of the world population were slaves or the equivalent.  For example, during the dark ages serfs were, in essence slaves.  Poor classes have always been basically slaves throughout most of history.  In addition slavery was very prominent in native American societies long before the Europeans arrived.  I am a direct descendent of a white slave that was brought to America in the 1600's - His name was George Darling.  Even today slavery thrives out our southern border in the form of human trafficking.   It is sadly ironic that it would seem that the first conviction of Jeffery Epstein empire built from slave trading (human sex slaves) will likely be a woman.

It is my understanding and belief (especially from the Book of Mormon) that the only means of ending slavery is in a society of liberty and freedom.  And that such a society can only survive with a dominate and strong middle class.  I do not believe that a middle class can thrive without traditional families.  I do not believe our current middle class and families are becoming stronger - at least it does not seems so to me during my lifetime.  I believe that the deterioration of traditional families is a giant step towards human slavery and racisms.  And the only way to right the ship and restore freedom and liberty (which is the only way to end racism) is through bloodshed.  

 

The Traveler

[Grunt]

6 hours ago, Traveler said:

There are some that put forward the idea that minorities cannot be racist.  

Also those that study history realize that most of the world population were slaves or the equivalent.  For example, during the dark ages serfs were, in essence slaves.  Poor classes have always been basically slaves throughout most of history.  In addition slavery was very prominent in native American societies long before the Europeans arrived.  I am a direct descendent of a white slave that was brought to America in the 1600's - His name was George Darling.  Even today slavery thrives out our southern border in the form of human trafficking.   It is sadly ironic that it would seem that the first conviction of Jeffery Epstein empire built from slave trading (human sex slaves) will likely be a woman.

It is my understanding and belief (especially from the Book of Mormon) that the only means of ending slavery is in a society of liberty and freedom.  And that such a society can only survive with a dominate and strong middle class.  I do not believe that a middle class can thrive without traditional families.  I do not believe our current middle class and families are becoming stronger - at least it does not seems so to me during my lifetime.  I believe that the deterioration of traditional families is a giant step towards human slavery and racisms.  And the only way to right the ship and restore freedom and liberty (which is the only way to end racism) is through bloodshed.  

 

The Traveler

People are tribal.  You're always going to have racism, classism, etc.   People settle where they deserve to be, typically.  It's also not unusual for them to blame "X" for them being there.   

In the cases mentioned above:   I'm not sure how I feel about the Aubery sentences, but it's only because I don't know all the details.  From what I've read, Travis McMichael deserves far worse than he got.   I'm unsure of Gregory McMichael's role.   I also thought William Bryan's sentence was harsh considering he testified against the other two and was the videographer.  Then I read that he hit Aubery with the truck.   

Regardless, society is better off with three violent racists in jail.   They can all burn.

The Aguilera-Mederos case is more complicated, and sadder all around in my opinion.  It doesn't appear he intentionally killed anyone.  The judge agreed and said he wouldn't have personally delivered that sentence if it wasn't required by the state.  The DA and AG were pushing for a sentence reduction and the Governor delivered it.   It's just a horrible situation because he appears to be a decent guy who had an unfortunate brake failure and handled it horribly.  He killed people and has to live with that his whole life.   It's tough for me to feel good about any situation like that.

 

[LDSGator]

8 hours ago, Traveler said:

There are some that put forward the idea that minorities cannot be racist.  

I don’t buy that at all. People of all races, sadly, can be bigoted. 

[mirkwood]

10 hours ago, Traveler said:

There are some that put forward the idea that minorities cannot be racist.  

Garbage belief.

[LDSGator]

36 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

Garbage belief.

It’s a saying white liberals use to try and satisfy their white guilt or show how hip and cool they are. It’s delusional of course. 

Edited January 8, 2022 by LDSGator

[Ironhold]

2 hours ago, LDSGator said:

It’s a saying white liberals use to try and satisfy their white guilt or show how hip and cool they are. It’s delusional of course. 

Ironically, they're often some of the most racist people you'll ever meet because they use it to justify holding patronizing and often backwards views. 

[LDSGator]

28 minutes ago, Ironhold said:

Ironically, they're often some of the most racist people you'll ever meet because they use it to justify holding patronizing and often backwards views. 

 Couldn't agree more. When you are wrapped up in self righteousness* it’s VERY hard to engage in self critique. 
 

* the right does this too for the record 

[Ironhold]

1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

 Couldn't agree more. When you are wrapped up in self righteousness* it’s VERY hard to engage in self critique. 
 

* the right does this too for the record 

It goes back to the basics of "The harder someone tries to signal their virtue, the less likely they are to have any virtue at all."

[LDSGator]

17 minutes ago, Ironhold said:

It goes back to the basics of "The harder someone tries to signal their virtue, the less likely they are to have any virtue at all."

Agree in part. Sometimes people are just bad communicators or lack common sense. Two traits that, while annoying, don’t make them immoral. 
 

I also think saying someone “lacks virtue” is pretty insulting. Were all a mixture of vice and virtue. Even people I can’t stand don’t lack virtue. 
 

One very fascinating quote-“Those without vice usually lack virtue.” That gets more and more true the older I get. 

Edited January 8, 2022 by LDSGator

[Ironhold]

15 hours ago, LDSGator said:

Agree in part. Sometimes people are just bad communicators or lack common sense. Two traits that, while annoying, don’t make them immoral. 
 

I also think saying someone “lacks virtue” is pretty insulting. Were all a mixture of vice and virtue. Even people I can’t stand don’t lack virtue. 

Nutshell: I've basically had training in psychological warfare. 

When a person goes out of their way to signal to the world how good they are, it's often a smokescreen meant to make sure that people don't probe or ask questions. This is because if people did probe and ask questions, they'd quickly find whatever skeletons the person is hiding. The harder they sell their inherent virtues, the bigger the pile of skeletons. 

For example, consider D. J. Nelson, who at one point was a leading critic of the church. 

Nelson loudly boasted about his doctorate in Egyptology, even giving a laundry list of high-profile projects he supposedly worked on whenever anyone tried to question his credentials. 

Well... authors Robert & Rosemary Brown decided to ignore the hype and actually investigate. 

Nelson's doctorate was from a diploma mill, and they couldn't find any evidence of a lower degree, let alone a lower degree in Egyptology. 

His laundry list? The Browns contacted everyone responsible for the projects. Of those people who got back to them, *none* admitted to knowing who Nelson was. 

When the Browns published their findings, Nelson's career was destroyed. "Lying about one's credentials" is a mortal sin in academia, and every single thing he'd ever written and done was now tainted. 

[NeuroTypical]

3 hours ago, Ironhold said:

When a person goes out of their way to signal to the world how good they are, it's often a smokescreen meant to make sure that people don't probe or ask questions. This is because if people did probe and ask questions, they'd quickly find whatever skeletons the person is hiding. The harder they sell their inherent virtues, the bigger the pile of skeletons. 

With the understanding that just about all humans virtue signal to one extent or another, I suppose I can see when people push it to extremes, they're hiding something.  It might be plain old anxiety or fear, perhaps even based on a defective sense of self, or it might be because they're hiding something.

[mirkwood]

2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

With the understanding that just about all humans virtue signal to one extent or another, I suppose I can see when people push it to extremes, they're hiding something.  It might be plain old anxiety or fear, perhaps even based on a defective sense of self, or it might be because they're hiding something.

Not me, I'm better than that.

[Traveler]

On 1/8/2022 at 12:43 PM, Ironhold said:

Ironically, they're often some of the most racist people you'll ever meet because they use it to justify holding patronizing and often backwards views. 

I am of a slightly different opinion - So I am interested in your thinking.  But first my thinking.  Prejudice is a means of coming to a conclusion before you know any or all the reasons (or in essence the parameters).   I think there are two kinds of prejudice.  The first is a simple matter of ignorance.  In essence dealing with something you do not understand.  There is a lot of that in life.  The second type in my mind is a next lever and is a prejudice based on hate.  Ignorance will cause us to prejudice in concerns for our own safety - it is a form of defense.  Hateful prejudice is beyond self preservation.  It is an offensive act to do harm towards others - even and especially when anything to do with self is not threatened.  

Ignorance is overcome with experience and knowledge.  But hate is much more difficult to change or resolve.  Also hate is a learned prejudice - sometimes it is learned by outside teaching where there is sufficient ignorance to resist elements that are false and misleading.

It is my experience that 90% of the prejudice I have encountered is based in ignorance.  Hate is a prejudice that seems to have to burn itself out before it can be dealt with.

 

The Traveler

[NeuroTypical]

4 hours ago, mirkwood said:

7 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

With the understanding that just about all humans virtue signal to one extent or another, I suppose I can see when people push it to extremes, they're hiding something.  It might be plain old anxiety or fear, perhaps even based on a defective sense of self, or it might be because they're hiding something.

Not me, I'm better than that.

Well, the phrase means more than just "indicating you have virtue by expressing disgust or favor about certain political things".  Yes, when someone claims they have a superior position or morality based on their politics, that's virtue signaling.  And no, I've never seen you do that. 

The other meaning has to do with how we meet new people, form friendships, and gain trust. When you meet folks who are LDS, or cops, or D&D players, and you talk about being LDS, or a cop, or a DM, you're saying the stuff that group values, you also value.  You are signaling that what the group holds as a virtue, is also ok with you.  It's not a claim of superiority, just that you're someone who might be ok.

[mirkwood]

5 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Well, the phrase means more than just "indicating you have virtue by expressing disgust or favor about certain political things".  Yes, when someone claims they have a superior position or morality based on their politics, that's virtue signaling.  And no, I've never seen you do that. 

The other meaning has to do with how we meet new people, form friendships, and gain trust. When you meet folks who are LDS, or cops, or D&D players, and you talk about being LDS, or a cop, or a DM, you're saying the stuff that group values, you also value.  You are signaling that what the group holds as a virtue, is also ok with you.  It's not a claim of superiority, just that you're someone who might be ok.

I was making a joke.

 

Your points are valid.