A Pentacostal Reads the BoM


MrShorty
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On 11/24/2021 at 12:48 AM, marge said:

Serious question for those reading who are LDS.

If it wasn't the Holy Ghost [that testified to Marge that the Book of Mormon was false] then who was it? Do you think it was an evil spirit or a demon? Why would they be so clear? 

Serious question, not trying to be argumentative or anything.

I do not know. I personally don't really believe in evil spirits "testifying" of things. The scriptures are quite plain in their promise that those who seek shall find and those who ask shall be given. So I have no explanation for those sincere souls who feel they have be denied that witness (or, as in your case, believe they have received the opposite witness). I have suppositions and guesses, but they are only those.

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6 hours ago, Vort said:

I do not know. I personally don't really believe in evil spirits "testifying" of things. The scriptures are quite plain in their promise that those who seek shall find and those who ask shall be given. So I have no explanation for those sincere souls who feel they have be denied that witness (or, as in your case, believe they have received the opposite witness). I have suppositions and guesses, but they are only those.

I can only speak from MY personal experience and I in no way suggest my experience is doctrine or that I even understand it correctly.   
 

That said, I spent considerable time thinking I was asking in sincerity and wondering why I wasn't receiving an answer.  After acting in faith and dropping my earnestness and expectations of MY timeline I received my answers in unexpected places and times.  This has happened more than once to me.  

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I sincerely wonder why some do not receive religious answers.  For me the best example in history of not receiving a sought after religious answer come to us from the society that left us the Dead Sea Scrolls.  For over a hundred and fifty years devout Jews (house of Israel) prepared themselves to receive the Messiah.  They carefully followed every prophesy and book of scripture they could find.  They were baptized and performed sacrifices daily in the temple.  Their singular purpose was to prepare the way for the Messiah when he came among the Jews.  They knew within 4 years when he would be born.  I say within 4 years because of the inaccuracies in our modern calendar.   They were the experts in scriptures on the matter of the Messiah.  They studied scripture, prayed several times daily, performed sacrifices daily with priests of the house of Aaron (Levites) and fasted a minimum of weekly.  

It was not just one or two of this society but from all historical indications - not one of them found Jesus the Messiah.  There is no indication from New Testament texts nor from any of the scrolls that remained.  There are speculations that John the Baptist may have been connected as well as possible connections with the Apostle Paul.  But these are all speculations.   There is historical evidence that there were more individuals in the East (Persia and India) than there were in Israel that contacted Jesus based on sacred ancient texts. 

I have my own speculations in this matter based mostly on the parable of the sewer.  The one point that I am sure of is that what was manifested and made known to me - That Jesus is the Christ and the Messiah foretold by the prophets.  The manifestation that I received - I cannot show to anyone else but only say what I saw and was communicated to me.  And the essence of which I have already given witness.  That Jesus is the Christ and that the Book of Mormon was translated by the Power of G-d and that such was the opening of the last dispensation which is necessary for the preparation of the return of Christ to reign on earth.  All of which is fulfillment of prophesy.

 

The Traveler

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21 hours ago, Vort said:

I do not know. I personally don't really believe in evil spirits "testifying" of things. The scriptures are quite plain in their promise that those who seek shall find and those who ask shall be given. So I have no explanation for those sincere souls who feel they have be denied that witness (or, as in your case, believe they have received the opposite witness). I have suppositions and guesses, but they are only those.

There are examples in scripture of evil spirits that had "powers" to do things that could not be overcome by the Apostles.  To which Jesus said that some could only be removed by fasting and prayer.

I have had a number of dealing with unclean spirits.  Some encounters were not obvious.    When I was traveling for work - there were times that I would turn on my TV in my hotel room and the program of pure phonography would show - often requiring a paid subscription.  I pondered how this could be.  I discussed this with a close friend and very good member that I would sometimes travel with.  He told me that he believed that unclean spirits could infect a place through the indulgences of someone that had preceded me in that hotel room.   He said that when he traveled that he would bless his hotel room and command any remaining unclean spirits to leave by the power of the priesthood.  

I implemented his advice and since I have never once had an occurrence.  I was somewhat impressed and happened to mention this to a couple of LDS psychologists that are close friends of mine.  Both confirmed that it was necessary that they use the priesthood to cleanse their office after seeing certain patients.   If they did not do so that a following patient would often start to have similar issues to the preceding patient.  The reason I bring this up is to demonstrate that there are multiple witnesses that unclean spirits have as much power to infect someone's mind and thoughts as a common cold has power to infect someone's lungs.  I likewise believe that parents can infect their children and other family members from their indulgences with unclean practices.  

 

The Traveler

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  • 1 month later...
On 11/19/2021 at 11:18 PM, person0 said:

I struggle to understand how a Christian can study the Book of Mormon in depth and come away from it without reaching one of two conclusions:

1)  It is the Word of God as is the Bible

2)  It is not the Word of God, but if not, the Bible must not be either

I tend to automatically assume that one who reads the Book of Mormon and doesn't believe it to be true could not have fulfilled Moroni's promise, or they cast out the witness they received.  It is a very direct promise: ". . .he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost."  On a separate but related note: If I were to ever leave the Church, the only other option is atheism / agnosticism.  It just seems too obvious to me that other religions are just as (if not more) flawed as detractors claim ours to be.

I bolded the two parts that raised questions/thoughts. The first is that I do not believe the promise of Moroni calls for an in-depth study of the BoM. Rather, it is to be read with an open and seeking heart. Even that summary includes my assumption. The promise just asks the seeker to read it and pray. Many non-LDS read the BoM and come away without a testimony. It may well be that in most of these cases, and perhaps my own faltered on this account, the lack of testimony was due to the reader not sensing a lack--a need--for more. Even though I may want all the truth God has for me, it may well be that because I believe the Bible contains all that I need, then despite my professed willingness to receive more (i.e. the BoM if it is indeed true), if I don't need it to be true, then my openness may not be enough. I can accept that as a possible reason.

On the second part, I do loathe some of the efforts of anti-LDS folks--including some in my own faith--because their attempts to destroy a particular brand of faith ends up destroying all faith. Former members of many religions tell Evangelicals, "I'd love to be born again but I don't want to be burned again."

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As FYI, I will listen to the clip. However, it is impressive that this seminary professor took on this project. The Church of God Cleveland, TN is respected, and the fact that the fellowship's flagship seminary would allow one of its professors to do it speaks well. I strongly suspect that he had official approval, given where he teaches. I look forward to this. 🙂

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I listened to the first section. Dr. Thomas is clearly an academic and has the backing of his seminary and denomination. Further, there is a review on Amazon that calls Dr. Thomas fair (she gave him 5-stars). My sense is that folks here may find it interesting because the author is not LDS but is respectful and even-handed.

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On 1/18/2022 at 11:58 PM, prisonchaplain said:

I listened to the first section. Dr. Thomas is clearly an academic and has the backing of his seminary and denomination. Further, there is a review on Amazon that calls Dr. Thomas fair (she gave him 5-stars). My sense is that folks here may find it interesting because the author is not LDS but is respectful and even-handed.

I believe it is also important to look at things from a historical perspective.  When our church fled from the USA (around 150 years ago) there were no ministers (with the rare exceptions of a Catholic father in Nauvoo) that publicly indicated any sorrow or regret over the religious reasons for the members leaving the USA.  My personal experience while in the military (especially among more fundamental Protestants) was that LDS (like myself) were not Christian and deserve scorn and isolation. 

It would seem that there has been an evolution towards something much better and I must admit that if it had not been form my experiences with you - I would not have believed anything kind was taking place to the extent it has.  One last thought - it does appear to me that the evolution of political and social things is trending so that those of any religious stripe must find what ever safety of thought among themselves.

 

The Traveler

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2 hours ago, Traveler said:

I believe it is also important to look at things from a historical perspective.  When our church fled from the USA (around 150 years ago) there were no ministers (with the rare exceptions of a Catholic father in Nauvoo) that publicly indicated any sorrow or regret over the religious reasons for the members leaving the USA.  My personal experience while in the military (especially among more fundamental Protestants) was that LDS (like myself) were not Christian and deserve scorn and isolation. 

It would seem that there has been an evolution towards something much better and I must admit that if it had not been form my experiences with you - I would not have believed anything kind was taking place to the extent it has.  One last thought - it does appear to me that the evolution of political and social things is trending so that those of any religious stripe must find what ever safety of thought among themselves.

 

The Traveler

I've had similar experiences as well.

During various debates and discussions I've had, I encountered more than a few people who - either literally or figuratively - declared that we had "declared war on" traditional mainstream Christianity and so we "deserve" every bad thing that happens to us, individually and collectively. 

They don't understand why anything that they're doing is wrong. 

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9 minutes ago, Ironhold said:

I've had similar experiences as well.

During various debates and discussions I've had, I encountered more than a few people who - either literally or figuratively - declared that we had "declared war on" traditional mainstream Christianity and so we "deserve" every bad thing that happens to us, individually and collectively. 

They don't understand why anything that they're doing is wrong. 

It seems that Jesus had the same problem with the traditions of the Pharisees and Scribes. 

 

The Traveler

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On 1/18/2022 at 8:35 PM, prisonchaplain said:

I bolded the two parts that raised questions/thoughts. The first is that I do not believe the promise of Moroni calls for an in-depth study of the BoM. Rather, it is to be read with an open and seeking heart. Even that summary includes my assumption. The promise just asks the seeker to read it and pray. Many non-LDS read the BoM and come away without a testimony. It may well be that in most of these cases, and perhaps my own faltered on this account, the lack of testimony was due to the reader not sensing a lack--a need--for more. Even though I may want all the truth God has for me, it may well be that because I believe the Bible contains all that I need, then despite my professed willingness to receive more (i.e. the BoM if it is indeed true), if I don't need it to be true, then my openness may not be enough. I can accept that as a possible reason.

On the second part, I do loathe some of the efforts of anti-LDS folks--including some in my own faith--because their attempts to destroy a particular brand of faith ends up destroying all faith. Former members of many religions tell Evangelicals, "I'd love to be born again but I don't want to be burned again."

It may also be worth noting that . . .

In common LDS discourse, we are used to equating the “these things” of verses 3-4, with the published Book of Mormon that the reader holds in their hands.  We grow up with this interpretation.  It is a (almost always) plausible reading.  But it is not the only plausible reading.

When Moroni writes this, he is completing a set of plates that included the “Book of Lehi”, a segment of between 116 and (according to Don Bradley) possibly up to 300 additional pages, which were lost and omitted from the book that we read.  Does “these things” include the Book of Lehi?  If so—how can Moroni’s promise work for anyone todaysince no one now living has ever read the same record that Moroni sealed?  If “these things” is not one and the same thing as the published BoM, then are we even sure “these things” refers to the record as a whole?  What if “these things” actually refers to the concepts that the record describes and discusses, rather than the record itself as a tangible item?

I met lots of Catholics on my mission to Brazil who agreed that the Book of Mormon was a good book because it said true things about Christ; but even if they got a spiritual confirmation they didn’t immediately feel that Moroni’s promise textually/logically bound them to accept the Book of Mormon as co-equal scripture to the Bible or to recognize Joseph Smith as a prophet or to affiliate themselves with the Church.

When I was a missionary we were able to “coast” a bit by using the Book of Mormon’s mere existence as a proselytizing tool—read a few chapters, pray about it, and blammo—conversion!  That experience is still hugely important—helping people to nurture the sort of relationship with God where they can talk to Him and find out that, wonder of wonders, He talks back!  But I think much of that fruit has been picked, and to be effective in ministering to other Christians today’s missionaries are going to need to be better versed in the Book of Mormon’s actual content as well as the specific ways that it reflects, builds upon, and (in some ways) pushes back against traditional understandings of the Bible in general and Biblical Christology in particular.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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