Article of Faith #2


romans8
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I have a question about this Article of Faith

We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

Can this be equated to something like: Men and women can choose to play in  whatever 
sports they wish but not all will play baseball?   Is AOF #2 comparing one fruit to 
another type of fruit or one fruit to another vegetable?

I found this reference in the church's "New Testament Student Manual - Religion 211–212"

https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/new-testament-student-manual/philippians-and-colossians/chapter-45-philippians-and-colossians?lang=eng

Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God the Eternal Father. He is our Creator. He is 
our Teacher. He is our Savior. His atonement paid for the sin of Adam and won victory over 
death, assuring resurrection and immortality for all men".

Does "sin of Adam" equate to "Adam's transgression" in this case?

Matteo

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3 hours ago, romans8 said:

We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

Ive never fully understood this .

is this a generic “my ancestors actions dont affect my salvation”? Or is this just referring to the fact that the fall of man does not damn me?

What are the differences between my “own sins” and “Adam’s transgression”? Today we have a definitive difference between sin and transgression, but did Joseph have the definitive separation when he wrote this? Or were these intended to simply be synonyms?

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Adam's sin, or Adam's transgression, also known as the Fall of Adam, is utilized by many other religions to justify why we are all going to Hell without the Atonement of Jesus Christ, even after that atonement was made.

We believe that unless one knows good from evil and chooses, they cannot sin.  Thus, as Adam did not know Good from Evil before he partook of the fruit of the Tree of Good and Evil, he could not specifically sin.  However, by choosing to eat of the fruit of the tree of Good and Evil he was going against the commandments given him, thus he transgressed the laws of the Lord and the punishment that ensued.

By doing this he brought upon himself a physical and spiritual death.  As we are children of Adam, we too inherit this. 

We believe in the Atonement of Jesus Christ.  This means that we believe that as long as one repents, they can have their sins (and transgressions) completely absolved by the atonement.  This means that any things Adam did which broke the Laws of the Lord and he repented of are erased.  The effects on him going to heaven or hell are done away and the sin is as if it did not occur when determining where he goes in the afterlife.  As he repented (as we believe) this means that his transgression is erased in relation to physical and spiritual death.

His sin after this life is as if it did not occur.  His robes are white as it were.  As his children, we also inherit this and will not suffer from the effects of his transgression in the eternities.  This applies to anyone, through the atonement all our sins can be washed away. 

Because of this, though we may die from this mortality, it is not permanent, we will be resurrected.  Physical death has no hold upon us.  The same applies to spiritual death in regards to the sins of our fathers, or in this case...Adam.  His transgression holds no power over us after this life due to the atonement.  As Adam fell, Jesus raised us back up again.

Thus, no one is going to Hell simply because they were born, as Adam's transgression is fully erased in regards to him and his children in the life after this.

This is ALSO why we believe little children do not need to be baptized.  They are unable to tell the difference between Good and Evil, the Lord's laws or not following those laws.  As they learn more, they become more accountable, but until that point, they are unable to sin.  As such, and as transgression is made whole or done away through the atonement, and they are not held by any inheritance of it, they are sinless.  They will all go to heaven regardless of what they do in this life.

However, this does NOT absolve us from personal responsibility.  Even though Adam has repented and was forgiven, we can still act against the Lord on our own.  When we do this knowingly, knowing good from evil and choosing evil, we Sin.  This is independent of Adam.  When we do so, we are doing our own sin, and of that we will be judged.  We need to repent of our own sins in our own lives.  Because the atonement is universal, if we do this, we, like Adam, can also be forgiven.

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2 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Adam's sin, or Adam's transgression, also known as the Fall of Adam, is utilized by many other religions to justify why we are all going to Hell without the Atonement of Jesus Christ, even after that atonement was made.

That's been my understanding as well.  One of the purposes of the Articles of Faith was to explain LDS beliefs, and distinguish them from other popular beliefs of the time.  And "mankind is evil because Adam did wrong and we're all tainted with his sin and you are all horrible hopeless fallen wastes of skin who would be lost without Christ praise the Lord", was a commonplace belief back then. 

AOF 2 basically says "yeah, you see that?  We don't believe that."

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2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

That's been my understanding as well.  One of the purposes of the Articles of Faith was to explain LDS beliefs, and distinguish them from other popular beliefs of the time.  And "mankind is evil because Adam did wrong and we're all tainted with his sin and you are all horrible hopeless fallen wastes of skin who would be lost without Christ praise the Lord", was a commonplace belief back then. 

AOF 2 basically says "yeah, you see that?  We don't believe that."

This is how it was explained to me.

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The first part of your questions aren't really making any sense that I can grasp. I'm not sure the comparison you are making with sports and choosing baseball, or fruit with vegetable. The second Article of Faith is simple in my eyes:

1) We aren't punished for Adam and Eve's decision to partake of the fruit. Simply put, when I stand at judgement the Lord will not require at my hand the deeds of Adam. The Lord will only require my decisions, my desires, and my words at the time of judgement.

2) Although we are not punished for someone else's sins we do have to live with their decisions, but no matter where we are born or where we are raised the decisions we make are our own. A child born to a drug addict will have to endure the life's beginnings of living with a drug addict. The child born to a millionaire will endure the life's beginnings of living in prosperity. The child born to two hard working parents, but poor, will endure the life's beginnings of whatever those may be. In the end, the child born to the drug addict will not be punished for their parents' decisions, but will be judge by their own decisions. The child born to the millionaires will not be punished for their parents' decisions, but will judged by their own decisions, and so on with the hard working parents who are poor.

As a result of Adam, we live in a fallen world, but in this world it will be our own choices: our thoughts, our words, and our desires that will condemn or exalt us -- not Adam and Eve's decision.

3) Victory over death through our Savior, Jesus Christ. Death was brought to pass by both Eve and Adam; although, it is clear that without Adam's willingness to obey all of God's commandments there would have been no Adam and Eve who had offspring (us). The quote given (specifically this quote), with regards to our Savior, the term "sin of Adam" and "Adam's trangression" are synonymous. Without our Savior we are all fallen and lost, due to our own individual sins.

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19 hours ago, Fether said:

Ive never fully understood this .

is this a generic “my ancestors actions dont affect my salvation”? Or is this just referring to the fact that the fall of man does not damn me?

What are the differences between my “own sins” and “Adam’s transgression”? Today we have a definitive difference between sin and transgression, but did Joseph have the definitive separation when he wrote this? Or were these intended to simply be synonyms?

The Fall does not damn us (Christ gives everyone a physical resurrection after this mortal probation), only our reaction to it (Christ cannot give eternal glory to the unrepentant person, because they are unwilling to receive a fulness of His grace on His terms).

22 hours ago, romans8 said:

I have a question about this Article of Faith

We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

Can this be equated to something like: Men and women can choose to play in  whatever 
sports they wish but not all will play baseball?   Is AOF #2 comparing one fruit to 
another type of fruit or one fruit to another vegetable?

I found this reference in the church's "New Testament Student Manual - Religion 211–212"

https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/new-testament-student-manual/philippians-and-colossians/chapter-45-philippians-and-colossians?lang=eng

Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God the Eternal Father. He is our Creator. He is 
our Teacher. He is our Savior. His atonement paid for the sin of Adam and won victory over 
death, assuring resurrection and immortality for all men".

Does "sin of Adam" equate to "Adam's transgression" in this case?

Matteo

As their descendants, we are all as Adam and Eve, so AoF #2 is apples to apples. We are all, as Adam and Eve, in a state of probation and accountable for our own actions.

Yes, in this case, "sin" and "transgression" are synonymous.

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On 11/27/2021 at 1:44 PM, JohnsonJones said:

Adam's sin, or Adam's transgression, also known as the Fall of Adam, is utilized by many other religions to justify why we are all going to Hell without the Atonement of Jesus Christ, even after that atonement was made.

This is ALSO why we believe little children do not need to be baptized.  They are unable to tell the difference between Good and Evil, the Lord's laws or not following those laws.  As they learn more, they become more accountable, but until that point, they are unable to sin.  As such, and as transgression is made whole or done away through the atonement, and they are not held by any inheritance of it, they are sinless.  They will all go to heaven regardless of what they do in this life.

However, this does NOT absolve us from personal responsibility.  Even though Adam has repented and was forgiven, we can still act against the Lord on our own.  When we do this knowingly, knowing good from evil and choosing evil, we Sin.  This is independent of Adam.  When we do so, we are doing our own sin, and of that we will be judged.  We need to repent of our own sins in our own lives.  Because the atonement is universal, if we do this, we, like Adam, can also be forgiven.

According to Moroni 8, why did the Nephites misunderstand the atonement of Christ and
baptize little children?  It seemed Moroni also did not know this so he had to inquire of
the Lord so as to correct the abominable practice.

And what curse on the little children was taken away by Christ?

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7 hours ago, romans8 said:

According to Moroni 8, why did the Nephites misunderstand the atonement of Christ and
baptize little children?  It seemed Moroni also did not know this so he had to inquire of
the Lord so as to correct the abominable practice.

And what curse on the little children was taken away by Christ?

@romans8, rather than trying to poke holes at what you think LDS Christians believe, I'd encourage you to share what you believe and bring that for discussion.

@romans8, do you believe that a person shall be punished for what Adam did?  Do you believe that deceased infants are sent to Hell or something else? 

Edited by Jane_Doe
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On 11/28/2021 at 8:24 AM, NeuroTypical said:

That's been my understanding as well.  One of the purposes of the Articles of Faith was to explain LDS beliefs, and distinguish them from other popular beliefs of the time.  And "mankind is evil because Adam did wrong and we're all tainted with his sin and you are all horrible hopeless fallen wastes of skin who would be lost without Christ praise the Lord", was a commonplace belief back then. 

AOF 2 basically says "yeah, you see that?  We don't believe that."

 
Alma 42: 6, 12
6 But behold, it was appointed unto man to adie—therefore, as they were cut off from the tree of life they should be cut off from the face of the earth—and man became blost forever, yea, they became cfallen man.
12 And now, there was no means to reclaim men from this fallen state, which aman had brought upon himself because of his own bdisobedience;
 
Alma 3:19
19 For the anatural bman is an cenemy to God, and has been from the dfall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he eyields to the enticings of the fHoly Spirit, and gputteth off the hnatural man and becometh a isaint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a jchild, ksubmissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.
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20 hours ago, romans8 said:

According to Moroni 8, why did the Nephites misunderstand the atonement of Christ and
baptize little children?  It seemed Moroni also did not know this so he had to inquire of
the Lord so as to correct the abominable practice.

And what curse on the little children was taken away by Christ?

At the time the Nephites were growing incredibly wicked.  By the time of Moroni, most had abandoned the gospel for their own ideas and ways.  This also means that they probably fell into developing their own religions and ideas about the gospel separate from what had been taught by the Lord over 300 years prior.  In the same way that we have different Christian denominations that have taught many different things, many of the ideas with in  these denominations today were thought up separate from what was taught.  Men decided to interpret things and give allowances to things in their own fashion, rather than what was originally taught, at least in accordance to one another.

This means while you have one denomination today preaching that you must be baptized by immersion, another teaches that a symbolic sprinkling is enough.  While you have one denomination teach that you are saved by grace without any effort on your own, all you need to do is say the words and you are saved and then you can commit any sin you wish and still be saved, another says that you must continually confess your sins and repent.

The Nephites were in this same bondage of sin and regression, where everyman interpreted the gospel and the ideas within the gospel in their own mind.  Most of them, in the end, simply decided that the gospel was wrong and they went and did their own thing anyways, doing every sin without regards to commandments.  You find many of them doing fornications, murdering for gain or putting importance on riches over that of the Lord and other such things.

Into this we have Mormon who has been raised in this community and sees them growing more wicked every day.  Where before they at least recognized the Lord, they now are falling away from even recognizing the atonement and the Lord and doing away with any semblance of the gospel.  You have them loving sin more than the Lord.  This also gave rise to many false ideas and confusion over what the Lord initially taught.

One of these things where people were arguing was about the Baptism of Little Children.  Mormon felt that this was wrong and that little children should not need to be baptized.  There were others who interpreted the gospel (much like we see today with people who disagree within Christianity itself on the right way to do certain things) differently and felt that everyone needed to be baptized. 

Thus, as one of those who could talk to the Lord at the time, Mormon prayed and found that his initial inspiration was correct and wrote his son Moroni about it.  That epistle is what we read as Moroni 8.

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On 12/4/2021 at 5:05 PM, Jane_Doe said:

do you believe that a person shall be punished for what Adam did?  Do you believe that deceased infants are sent to Hell or something else? 

I believe we are all indirectly punished as a result of Adam's transgression (in that we are all 
fallen by nature, including infants). I don't believe in infant baptism and I don't believe unbaptized
or deceased infants go to Hell.  In their death, they are heaven bound due to Christ's atonement.

Matteo

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On 12/5/2021 at 6:24 AM, JohnsonJones said:

One of these things where people were arguing was about the Baptism of Little Children.  Mormon felt that this was wrong and that little children should not need to be baptized.  There were others who interpreted the gospel (much like we see today with people who disagree within Christianity itself on the right way to do certain things) differently and felt that everyone needed to be baptized. 

Thus, as one of those who could talk to the Lord at the time, Mormon prayed and found that his initial inspiration was correct and wrote his son Moroni about it.  That epistle is what we read as Moroni 8.

From verse 4, I see Mormon was concerned about their disputations.  From verse 5, he says that
if he has learned the truth, the truth he learned is about there being disputations concerning the
baptism of little children. From verse 6-7, it looks to me that Mormon only learned that this was
an abominable practice only after he sought guidance from the Lord.

I do not get any sense that Mormon thought it was wrong before he sought the Lord's guidance
and then received a confirmation.

As for what curse was removed from little children, I also could not see that explained in Moroni 8.

Or maybe the curse is described in Alma 42:9-10, which I quoted in a later thread reply.
 

Edited by romans8
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On 12/4/2021 at 6:19 PM, askandanswer said:
 
Alma 42: 6, 12
6 But behold, it was appointed unto man to adie—therefore, as they were cut off from the tree of life they should be cut off from the face of the earth—and man became blost forever, yea, they became cfallen man.
12 And now, there was no means to reclaim men from this fallen state, which aman had brought upon himself because of his own bdisobedience;

I found these two other verses in Alma 42.

"Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death
as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that
mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death. Therefore, as they had become carnal,
sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it
became a preparatory state
" (9-10).

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1 hour ago, romans8 said:

I believe we are all indirectly punished as a result of Adam's transgression (in that we are all 
fallen by nature, including infants). I don't believe in infant baptism and I don't believe unbaptized
or deceased infants go to Hell.  In their death, they are heaven bound due to Christ's atonement.

Matteo

I take it that by "indirectly punished" you mean that we have live with results from his actions, rather than being directly punished ourselves?   

How do you see you view differing from LDS Christians' view?  

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16 hours ago, romans8 said:

From verse 4, I see Mormon was concerned about their disputations.  From verse 5, he says that
if he has learned the truth, the truth he learned is about there being disputations concerning the
baptism of little children. From verse 6-7, it looks to me that Mormon only learned that this was
an abominable practice only after he sought guidance from the Lord.

I do not get any sense that Mormon thought it was wrong before he sought the Lord's guidance
and then received a confirmation.

As for what curse was removed from little children, I also could not see that explained in Moroni 8.

Or maybe the curse is described in Alma 42:9-10, which I quoted in a later thread reply.
 

 

Quote

4 And now, my son, I speak unto you concerning that which grieveth me exceedingly; for it grieveth me that there should adisputations rise among you.

5 For, if I have learned the truth, there have been disputations among you concerning the baptism of your little children.

6 And now, my son, I desire that ye should labor diligently, that this gross error should be removed from among you; for, for this intent I have written this epistle.

7 For immediately after I had learned these things of you I inquired of the Lord concerning the matter. And the aword of the Lord came to me by the power of the Holy Ghost, saying:

It is clear from his writing that he felt that little children should not need to be baptized from the start.  That he felt that was the doctrine already, but he inquired nonethless.

 

He was sad because they were arguing about this.  He found out that they were arguing about the matter but, asked about it anyways.  The way he condemns anyone who thinks this way (that little children need to be baptized) show his thought process later.  He was very unhappy people even thought about it in that way, and that he ALWAYS felt that there was no need for little children to be baptized, and in fact says of those who think that they do that he feels this way about them...

Quote

14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither afaith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell.

15 For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism.

16 Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner, for they shall perish except they repent. Behold, I speak with boldness, having aauthority from God; and I fear not what man can do; for bperfect clove dcasteth out all fear.

These are not the words from someone who didn't not feel strongly about the matter already.  He already felt in his personal beliefs that little children should not need to be baptized and could not imagine that anyone who was Christian could think or feel otherwise.

Edited by JohnsonJones
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On 12/11/2021 at 11:21 AM, romans8 said:

I believe we are all indirectly punished as a result of Adam's transgression (in that we are all 
fallen by nature, including infants). I don't believe in infant baptism and I don't believe unbaptized
or deceased infants go to Hell.  In their death, they are heaven bound due to Christ's atonement.

Matteo

Why I believe the 2nd Article of Faith to be necessary revelation to clear up corrupted understanding concerning the Atonement of Christ and the divinity of a just G-d:  I came to my understanding through careful study, logic and what I think is divinely inspired personal revelation.  All posting at the forum are encouraged, by me, to read through my understanding and dray whatever conclusions they will.  I also encourage any criticism, correction, addition, questions or any other discussion to my post by anyone – LDS or otherwise.  I will consider all responses and will respond in kindness and as best to my understanding as I find appropriate.

First point – when we speak of punishment (in the Second Article of Faith) we are referring to punishment enacted by G-d to accomplish his purpose.  My understanding is that there can be no purpose by a Just G-d that is not in and of itself – Just.  If a punishment is meted out that is not just; the source of such punishment cannot be thought of as just.  Thus any punishment by G-d must be just or such a G-d is NOT a just G-d.  I do not believe that anyone other than Adam can be punished for his transgressions (sins) by a Just G-d.

Because of this “first point” we are left with two seemingly paradoxical contradictions and doctrines.  The first is dealing with how it is possible that all of mankind became fallen from divine grace into a state of sin and unavoidable death because of the fall of Adam?  The second is how is it possible that Jesus Christ being innocent is justly able to redeem (be punished) for all the sins of mankind?  Because of these two contradictions – I cannot logically believe in any other Christian doctrine and teachings other than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  I will explain the logic I find uniquely in LDS teaching of the Plan of Salvation.

Second point – Unique to modern religious doctrine the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints unequivocally teaches that all mankind lived with G-d before there was a creation of our earth or any living thing upon earth.  In this pre-earth existence, G-d held a great counsel with all his spirit children (including all of mankind to live or ever live on this earth).  In this grand counsel G-d presented a plan called the Plan of Salvation that made possible for his spirit children (including all of mankind) to learn by experience and obtain knowledge of good and evil.

Elements of this divine plan of salvation were taught to the first of G-d’s spirit children to live on earth.  This first of G-d’s spirit children was a man we call Adam.  Adam recorded the revealed elements of this plan in scripture for all generations that would follow him and also taught his children so that this essential information was passed down through generations by scripture and by word of mouth.

A quick summary (not complete) of this plan included: 1. A creation of our earth where we could experience mortal life.  2. A fall from grace meaning that we would live without knowledge but by faith and eventually die.  3. That a chosen and anointed Son of G-d (Messiah or Christ) would grant us Agency to choose between Light (good) or Darkness (evil) after we have experience the fruit of good and evil.  This Agency also allowed us to accept or reject the plan of salvation long before we would be born as well as being tarnished by sin during mortality.  Our knowledge of evil would be concluded by our suffering death.  Our knowledge of good would be completed by our redemption from sin by the Atonement of Jesus Christ.  This redemption would require that Jesus Christ (Jehovah) grant us our agency and by right of his divine G-dhood and proctor of the covenant given to us through the plan of salvation – thus Jesus the Christ became accountable for allowing our choice to fall and suffer death.  Therefore he was the only possible redemptions for our sins that would require his condescension to suffer even unto death (both physical and spiritual) without himself committing any sin or transgression of the law.

Then after we have experienced a fall from grace – we also will suffer death and atonement and with this knowledge of good and evil; which came by our experience we will then come before G-d the Father where we will complete our exercise of Agency and present our eternal choice of good and evil before G-d at what is called the Final Judgement.

I have logically concluded that in this pre-earth existence, that we, under the Agency granted by Christ (the Son of G-d) that we chose (as symbolically presented in scripture as the fall of Adam) to partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (meaning the sacrifice by way of atonement as good and suffering death as evil)

And so it is I believe we chose to become mortal to suffer physical death and live with a vail of forgetfulness which is a spiritual death.  Because we chose to partake of this fruit of knowledge of good and evil we are punished and suffer – even unto death in this life - first of a forgetfulness of our previous estate (which is a spiritual death) and second we die.  Indeed the scriptures speak of both death and a second death.

 

The Traveler

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On 11/28/2021 at 6:34 AM, CV75 said:

The Fall does not damn us (Christ gives everyone a physical resurrection after this mortal probation), only our reaction to it (Christ cannot give eternal glory to the unrepentant person, because they are unwilling to receive a fulness of His grace on His terms).

As their descendants, we are all as Adam and Eve, so AoF #2 is apples to apples. We are all, as Adam and Eve, in a state of probation and accountable for our own actions.

Yes, in this case, "sin" and "transgression" are synonymous.

 Are you sure the fall doesn’t damn us? The Book of Mormon teaches that in spite of  the resurrection there will be those among the resurrected who will be “as if there had been no redemption made?” In spite of their resurrection, the sons of perdition are fully cursed by the fall.

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On 11/27/2021 at 8:03 AM, romans8 said:

I have a question about this Article of Faith

We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

Can this be equated to something like: Men and women can choose to play in  whatever 
sports they wish but not all will play baseball?   Is AOF #2 comparing one fruit to 
another type of fruit or one fruit to another vegetable?

I found this reference in the church's "New Testament Student Manual - Religion 211–212"

https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/new-testament-student-manual/philippians-and-colossians/chapter-45-philippians-and-colossians?lang=eng

Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God the Eternal Father. He is our Creator. He is 
our Teacher. He is our Savior. His atonement paid for the sin of Adam and won victory over 
death, assuring resurrection and immortality for all men".

Does "sin of Adam" equate to "Adam's transgression" in this case?

Matteo

I believe Adams Transgression to be all the things that come as a result of adam's transgression, i.e. - living in an carnal body.  For example, I don't think the apostles will be punished for falling asleep while Christ was in the Garden of Gethsemane.  They tried to stay awake but because of Adam's transgression their body was not able to stay awake. Their spirit was willing but the body not able.  So the things for which the spirit is willing but the body not able, we will not be punished for.  Another example would be if a person blurted out a profanity because they had some physical ailment that caused such a thing, like Tourette's or even Alzheimer's etc. a person would not be punished for "Adam's transgression" - an imperfect body. 

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18 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

 Are you sure the fall doesn’t damn us?

I am

Quote

The Book of Mormon teaches that in spite of  the resurrection there will be those among the resurrected who will be “as if there had been no redemption made?” In spite of their resurrection, the sons of perdition are fully cursed by the fall.

I think you have this backwards.  No one is cursed because of by the fall.  All maledictions (including curses) associated with the fall are mitigated by the atonement of Christ.  Those that remain in a fallen state (spiritual death) obtain such by their own agency and their preference to "darkness" rather than "light".  A fall and atonement was necessary to obtain knowledge of good and evil.  With such pure and exact knowledge we can exercise our agency to determine what we good or evil we prefer.  Adam has nothing to do with determining what we prefer.

 

The Traveler

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On 12/14/2021 at 11:28 PM, Jersey Boy said:

 Are you sure the fall doesn’t damn us? The Book of Mormon teaches that in spite of  the resurrection there will be those among the resurrected who will be “as if there had been no redemption made?” In spite of their resurrection, the sons of perdition are fully cursed by the fall.

Given that the redemption was prepared from before the foundation of the world, the sons of perdition are fully cursed by their choices in the fallen, probationary state. Had there been no redemption prepared, then yes, everyone would be born, have no probation, die and remain separated from God at each stage and forever. But who would have opted for that? :) 

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On 12/11/2021 at 2:51 PM, Jane_Doe said:

I take it that by "indirectly punished" you mean that we have live with results from his actions, rather than being directly punished ourselves?   

How do you see you view differing from LDS Christians' view?  

Maybe I could explain it by saying the sons of Adam and Eve were born with a fallen condition
(separated from God) through no action of their own.  In a sense, they were indirectly punished
via the actions of their parents in that they (Cain and Abel) had this fallen/sinful nature right
from their physical birth.  

I think the LDS Christian view might be the same in this regard.  I provided Alma 42:9-10
earlier for reference.

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2 hours ago, romans8 said:

Maybe I could explain it by saying the sons of Adam and Eve were born with a fallen condition
(separated from God) through no action of their own.  In a sense, they were indirectly punished
via the actions of their parents in that they (Cain and Abel) had this fallen/sinful nature right
from their physical birth.  

I think the LDS Christian view might be the same in this regard.  I provided Alma 42:9-10
earlier for reference.

Yes.  

I’m not sure the purpose of your questioning then. 

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On 12/18/2021 at 12:27 PM, Jane_Doe said:

I’m not sure the purpose of your questioning then. 

The reason behind the question is that I see a teaching that Adam's disobedience is not viewed as a sin, whereas other
teachings say it was a sin.

Not a sin:

The Pearl of Great Price Student Manual - 2018

A sin:

New Testament Student Manual - 2018
March 2008 Ensign article
 

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On 12/18/2021 at 8:04 AM, romans8 said:

Maybe I could explain it by saying the sons of Adam and Eve were born with a fallen condition
(separated from God) through no action of their own.  In a sense, they were indirectly punished
via the actions of their parents in that they (Cain and Abel) had this fallen/sinful nature right
from their physical birth.  

I think the LDS Christian view might be the same in this regard.  I provided Alma 42:9-10
earlier for reference.

The thing is, in LDS teaching there’s another dimension to the Fall.  Yes, in mortality we are born as heirs to the consequences of Adam’s sin/transgression/whatever-you-want-to-call-it (we split a lot of semantical hairs in that regard).  But also, in the premortal life each human made the exact same choice Adam did:  We, being in a state of innocence, forsook that state and (notwithstanding we did it in hopes of a greater long-term gain in accordance with the Father’s plan of salvation, and knowing ab initio that a Savior would be provided) subjected ourselves to the power of Satan.

So for Mormons, it’s not quite right to present humankind as passive victims of Adam’s negligence; though the Savior in His grace still covers the sins of very small children who are unable to be accountable for their misdeeds.

 

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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