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2 hours ago, Traveler said:

I do not think I would like to be an official member of a "doctrinal" group - especially in a religious setting.  That is with some exceptions.  I love discussing ideas and I enjoy this forum.  It is a personal belief of mine that we can learn more from someone that we disagree with than someone that thinks the same as we do.  I really do not know a reason to continue conversations primarily with those that we agree with.

 

We are in different places, though.  I would love to be a member of a doctrinal group, because I have many questions about doctrine.  I also believe I learn more from someone I disagree with than someone I'm in doctrinal harmony with, typically.   I study with a few Catholics and their challenges often lead me to a greater understanding or narrowing of my own beliefs as I research those challenges and questions.   However, I also find many reasons to continue conversations with those I agree with.  A few of them are a broadening of my perspective on the reasons for those agreements, a greater understanding of the history of those agreements, or in some cases just a reinforcement of my own beliefs.   It also isn't always about what I get from the conversation, but what the other person gets from me.   Conversations aren't only about what we walk away with.  
 

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But I would say that there are two things that I use as guide in my conversations.  The first is not so much what a person believes but why the believe what they do.  Many are interested is sources - but I am not so sure a source discloses much of why.  This includes thoughts on what experts or individuals of authority say.  I have great respect for our prophets and leaders but I am aware that even the most inspired individuals have flaws - in scripture is was not uncommon for Jesus (G-d) to criticize and correct his called and appointed prophets.  With very rare exception when discussing doctrine do I encounter someone that relies on personal revelation (logic) and the Holy Ghost.

This is one of the biggest reasons for my want of a study group.   I will probably benefit more from it than a member such as yourself.   I'm now at the stage of my progression where I want to know more "why" than "what".   I know we believe that marriage is essential, but why do we believe that?   Where is the doctrinal foundation?  Then, what doe s that mean to you?

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If someone does not know divine law - The temple is the proper place to be instructed (not a discussion group).  If someone does not appreciate entering into G-d's ordinances through a divinely appointed Proctor or Proxy - I am not so much concerned with their "ideas" on much of anything of religious nature.  If someone does not keep or have knowledge of the "Everlasting Covenant" there is little reason to hold their religious notions in much esteem.  

I agree with some of this.  The temple is the proper place to receive instruction, but it isn't always conducive to understanding that instruction.  I've learned a lot about those topics from books and talks by Church leaders, and through discussion with faithful members of my ward.

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It is very unlikely that anyone experiencing anger in an discussion is achieving that anger through divine personal revelation, obedience to divine Law, is accepting ordinances through a divinely appointed Proctor or Proxy of G-d and is keeping the "Everlasting Covenant".  Especially if the anger is being generated within me - without repentance I cannot hear let alone espouse truth through the Holy Ghost.

I don't know why anyone would experience anger in a discussion, unless one or more parties were being dishonest or deceitful.  At that point I don't know why anyone would continue the discussion of the topic.

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13 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Yeah, Mormondialogue is an interesting place.  One of the posters works for the church, as the head of the church's translation department.  He also has a TikTok.  Reading and watching his egg-heady large-words stuff on scripture and history and whatnot, has done more to weaken my testimony in the last 6 months, than the sum total of everything all critics have told me in the last quarter century.   (It hasn't weakened by much, but it's fascinating to hear the stuff coming out of such a highly-placed church employee, who does some of his videos from his home office.)

I find myself drawn to that kind of ancient-scripture geekery, but the person of whom you speak—and a couple of others whose ancient scripture scholarship I enjoy and respect—on inspection of their blogs and social media profiles, seem to be bile-filled individuals who reek of outright contempt for those Mormons who (quite frankly) are more devoted to the Gospel and the Church, and more committed to keeping the commandments, than the scholars themselves are.  It’s a real gut-check, to find myself drawn to the likes of these folks.  Makes me wonder if I ought to re-evaluate my priorities and areas of interest.

But—Heaven help me—some of the conservative/orthodox discussion groups are soo baaad—either perseverating on minutiae, or smugly hiding the ball and extolling their own virtues, or flat-out parroting interpretations and theories that are patently incorrect, or over-emphasizing some cherry-picked quotations while ignoring other quotations that provide a more nuanced or even somewhat contradictory approach.

The conservatives aren’t edifying, and the progressives aren’t trustworthy; and I find myself retreating into a sort of exegetical nihilism where I do a perfunctory daily scripture reading but focus more on the current GAs and recent conference talks. I’m not sure if that’s a bug or a feature of the current situation.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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Well, if you will do reddit, there are two places on Reddit (the others are junk and to be avoided) that have faithful forums for members.  Be aware that the moderation is rather strict and a LOT of stuff that goes on here (for example, antagonizing other faithful members that would be tolerated here may not be tolerated there) would not be allowed there.  They try to keep a strict faithfulness to the gospel ideology there, but it can be a good place to discuss topics about the Church.

The Faithful Latter-day Saint reddit

A Believing Latter-day Saint reddit

There are connections to deeper discussion groups, but from experience, they limit those who can join until they are familiar with what type of poster they are.  Political gospel, as we sometimes see here, is NOT normally allowed on any of the reddits I listed above or that are connected to them for deeper discussion from what I've seen.

I had difficulties finding forums and places to discuss gospel topics without the hinderance of many of those who are opposed to the gospel or the church.  In that search several years ago, this was the only place I found at that time.  After this, I have found very few locations other than these forums.  The above two are ones that I would suggest.

I haven't found any other forums (like this one) that have the safety for members to discuss topics in safety, though I did find the above reddits that are relatively safer than most other places on the internet.

The first reddit tends to be better in material, but less active.  The second is more active, but you get bleed through occasionally of some rather bad topics that are a little antagonistic toward the gospel or the church.

I am a professor/teacher of history these days, and have some insight into gospel topics, but I find many do not really want to discuss these things with me in detail. 

I am not specialized in Latter-day Saint Church history, but do amateur history research and enjoy reading on it.  I imagine I have more breadth than most, and far more than many of those who attack the church (but most of them do not actually want to hear what a historian has to say about it, nor about the sources they rely on, being more set in what they've already decided than having an open mind), and try to defend the church in a kind and charitable fashion when facing such, but I really don't enjoy their constant attacks which is why I find refuge in more hospitable locations for faithful members like me.

However, I find that many do NOT want to actually discuss these things with me, as the combination of historical ideas and my own faith in the gospel can turn people off on both sides of the divide (those who don't want any faithfulness or belief in the topic tend to hate when I bring up historical aspects, and those who hate historical introspection on items hate it when I include that in my commentary on something that they rely on completely by faith).

The irony, is among those who are Church historians or study Church history, I am probably on the edges of the far right conservative side of things (most of those involved with Church history these days tend to be more liberal on their take of Church history).

With that in mind, I would suggest that some books could be excellent items to get and read if you are interested in some deeper topics and subjects from Church history and doctrine.  These slant FAR more conservatively than what is popular today though and may not be what you may be interested in.  They are deep though.

My first suggestion would be the Answers to Gospel Questions by Joseph Fielding Smith.  Answer to gospel questions on Amazon

I then would say a good base for reading would be Doctrines of Salvation  Doctrines of Salvation on Amazon

Next up would be Jesus the Christ Jesus the Christ by James E. Talmadge on Amazon

Then Articles of Faith also by Talmadge  Articles of Faith on Amazon

A longer read but very good for a knowledge of Church history and the background of Where our scriptures come from and the context of what was thought and believed at the time of the later portions of the Doctrine and Covenants (after Joseph's death for example and when the Pearl of Great Price was canonized) is the History of the Church, the original 7 volumes (not including the index).  It is abhorrent to many of the Church historians today (so be forewarned) and they've come out with their more liberal and revised history called the Saints (of interest, The History of the Church is a valid historian's resource to use...Saints...is NOT).  It can be difficult to find.  History of the Church

Once, or if, you manage to get through all of that, if you want to get into DEEP doctrine, or deep topics...I would suggest reading what was once a Sunday School book, utilized to study the teachings of Joseph F. Smith.  Some of this stuff can be very confusing to people today, so reading it with a great deal of prayer and humility is key to understanding them.  They were not so hard to understand in the past, but times and teachings were different and what we were exposed to was different than what is done in the Church today.

It shouldn't be so controversial these days, but it can be...but it is stuff drawn from various sources (some more dependable than others) regarding statements and teachings of the Prophet Joseph himself that we do not find in our everyday material.  Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith

You can still find it (at least you could a few years ago when I visited the Church bookstores) published by companies close to the Church today so easier to obtain than others.  Some of the material though is very deep and in relation to what the Church teaches today, I would HIGHLY suggest the items at the top of this list to be read BEFORE you dive into this book...just my personal thoughts.

Gospel Doctrine (selected portions from sermons by Joseph F. Smith) Gospel Doctrine

Also Bruce R. McConkie's Mortal Messiah series  McConkie's Messiah Series

Another classic by McConkie is Mormon Doctrine  Mormon Doctrine again on Amazon

Going even deeper, and possibly even more confusing to people (countless people have been confused in reading this book and is favored among anti-mormons at times because they can sow confusion among those who do not understand what Brigham Young actually said or meant...though reading the Joseph Fielding Smiths Doctrines of Salvation and Answers to Gospel Questions normally answers these items pretty clearly or helps to clear these items up...and it should as he is the Grandson of Hyrum Smith, the Great Nephew of Joseph Smith, and heard many explanations of these things directly from his father who was the Son of Hyrum Smith himself"). 

Discourses of Brigham Young is an excellent book, but as I said, it can be tricky, so I only suggest it IF or ONCE you have a VERY SOLID grasp of Latter-day Saint doctrines and ideas and can use them to guide you in your understanding of what Brigham Young is actually saying.

Discourses of Brigham Young

Another controversial book these days which should be read later is the History of Joseph Smith by his Mother Lucy Mack Smith.  Same things as the above book as you read it.

History of Joseph Smith by his Mother Lucy Mack Smith

The Miracle of Forgiveness by Spencer W. Kimball is another excellent book, more regarding the focus of repentance and the atonement than others

The Miracle of Forgiveness

Finally, a series of Lectures that used to be included at the end of the Doctrine and Covenants, but were taken out.  They are highly informational on the basic concepts of faith from the time of Joseph Smith, and were in the basic understanding of Saints from that time up until probably Harold B. Lee and Spencer W. Kimballs time period.  Lectures on Faith is extremely good to read if you can find a good copy (unmarred by additions of others who would change what it says). 

Lectures on Faith

The above Four books are HIGHLY controversial in some ways in the Church today and as such, as I said before, you should ONLY read them if you have a very solid grasp of the modern teachings of the Gospel and how it is structured as some of the items in the books listed above may not seem initially to conjoin with our modern teachings.  ONLY with a solid understanding of the gospel can one really understand how it is seamless from then to now.

Because of this, the above 4 books can be favored by those against the Church to try to shake the faith of members which is why I don't put them near the top of the list and only suggest it AFTER all other items are read and one has a VERY GOOD grasp (good enough so that they cannot be shaken by the wind blasts of those who are against the Church) of the gospel and the faith that sticks them to it.

All the above books though can be good reads for a deeper understanding of the gospel, and I find them more illuminating in many instances than trying to discuss it with others on the internet.  I love books though, so reading books is right up my alley.

There are more books than these that are useful, but I think the above give a basic grasp of foundational topics pertinent to the Gospel, it's deeper doctrines on the surface, and a better understanding of the ordinances and principles of our Church.

A reminder though that I am considered on the FAR right conservative arm of Church history in how I look at the gospel and it's doctrines in relation to Church history.  Much of what I think is important is considered scandalous or even down right hated by the more liberal arms of Church Historians today, and some of the stuff I have suggested is now being attempted to be buried by most of those who are not as conservative minded as I am (yes, that may seem odd, but in this I am considered extremely Conservative, even far right, in Historical circles, regarding these materials and suggesting them).  AS such, it may not be the list you want to read if you want to be more mainstream or in the more mainstream of gospel today...though that tends to not go quite as deep into subjects and study as the Conservative arms do.

Others who are more mainstream could suggest a better reading list for mainstream history and theology inline with modern history and it's interpretations within the church for you if you wish to go in that direction.


 

Edited by JohnsonJones
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5 hours ago, Grunt said:

Thanks.  I'll check those out.  Side note: I haven't seen any antagonizing of faithful members of the Church here.   Perhaps we have different definitions of "antagonizing" or "faithful member".

People often have significant differences in what they mean by "disrespect". 

At the extreme end, this can even include "I'm right, and anyone who disagrees is being petulant". 

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On 11/30/2021 at 9:19 AM, Grunt said:

This is one of the biggest reasons for my want of a study group.   I will probably benefit more from it than a member such as yourself.   I'm now at the stage of my progression where I want to know more "why" than "what".   I know we believe that marriage is essential, but why do we believe that?   Where is the doctrinal foundation?  Then, what doe s that mean to you?

I think that if you keep asking "why" for long enough, eventually you will get to four basic answers. Things are the way they are either because of 1) God's personal preferences; 2) universal laws to which even God is subject, and which must be obeyed; 3) a combination of God's preferences and universal laws 4) whatever was agreed upon in the  council of heaven in the pre-existence.

An example of the first: Israel is the chosen land because God likes that part of the world. An example of the second: the requirement for justice. An example of the 3rd: the Atonement. Perhaps there could have been many ways to meet the universal demands/requirements of justice, but the method God seems to have preferred is the atonement. An example of the 4th: The discussion and decision in the council of heaven that Christ be the one to accomplish the atonement.

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50 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

I think that if you keep asking "why" for long enough, eventually you will get to four basic answers. Things are the way they are either because of 1) God's personal preferences; 2) universal laws to which even God is subject, and which must be obeyed; 3) a combination of God's preferences and universal laws 4) whatever was agreed upon in the  council of heaven in the pre-existence.

An example of the first: Israel is the chosen land because God likes that part of the world. An example of the second: the requirement for justice. An example of the 3rd: the Atonement. Perhaps there could have been many ways to meet the universal demands/requirements of justice, but the method God seems to have preferred is the atonement. An example of the 4th: The discussion and decision in the council of heaven that Christ be the one to accomplish the atonement.

I didn't explain myself well enough and you went FAR deeper than I meant.   By "why" I meant foundational.  Why does the Church believe marriage is required for the highest levels of exaltation?  Where is it found in scripture?  Where did it first appear in talks, sermon, or revelation?  That's what I meant by "why".  When my beliefs are questioned or challenged by myself or others, I want to know where to find the answers.

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On 12/3/2021 at 5:17 PM, Grunt said:

I didn't explain myself well enough and you went FAR deeper than I meant.   By "why" I meant foundational.  Why does the Church believe marriage is required for the highest levels of exaltation?  Where is it found in scripture?  Where did it first appear in talks, sermon, or revelation?  That's what I meant by "why".  When my beliefs are questioned or challenged by myself or others, I want to know where to find the answers.

There are several reasons, some of which I won't go into here, but are rather important in and of themselves.  I'd say the first portion of this will go into the scriptures.  In Genesis, Chapter 2 we read

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20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

So here we read that Adam was alone here, and there was no helpmeet or helpmate for him.  One of the reasons for the creation of Eve, or his wife, was that he would have a companion that would be there to help him  (and in our modern terms, the husband and wife help each other).  Part of the reason is so that we have someone to face the world with, that will be our constant companion.

Next, we see that to make Eve, Adam was separated from part of his own body.  This is both symbolic and literal I believe.  This means that Adam, if we compared to someone complete and whole, was now incomplete.  In order to be complete he needed to have that portion of him become him.

In this, the only way for him to be complete (or for a man to be complete) is to have a woman joined to him (both literally, figuratively, and spiritually).  I won't go into details of how this is done physically (I think most here probably can figure that one out), but we also need to be unified in spirit and mind.  This is where we also become whole, or as one, united by the Lord in a union where we complete each other and make each other whole.

Now, turning to the Pearl of Great Price in the Book of Moses we also turn to Chapter 2. 

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27 And I, God, created man in mine own image, in the image of mine Only Begotten created I him; male and female created I them.

28 And I, God, blessed them, and said unto them: Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Here we find yet another reason for a Man and a Woman to be married and united.  This is so that we can have children.  We and our children (and mankind in general) also have the command to rule over the earth, or to subdue it and have dominion over it. 

Now, going more into a personal interpretation...

There are those that may be sad because they cannot fulfill the last commandments I listed in this life. 

We believe that these ideas are not just for THIS life, but eternal ideas that can apply to us.  As we will all be raised in perfection in the next life, those who fulfill their covenants and rise to the highest level of Heaven will be able to fulfill these commandments in that life, being able to also multiply and replenish, as well as all other promises. 

Thus, some of the important reasons for a Man and a Woman to be married, not just in this life, but in the eternities are...

1.  To have a companionship, to have an eternal companion.

2.  To be whole and to be one with another.  This being one can ONLY be accomplished with a creature like ourselves and yet different, thus it MUST be a Man and a Woman (or Woman and a Man), not something alike another (so no Man with Man or Woman with Woman, such cannot be whole as they are incomplete as of themselves, they cannot complete the other).  This being one with another is an essential part of WHY we are married for this life as well as eternity.

3.  To have children.

And as I said, in my personal belief, this applies not just to this life, but in the eternities to come as well.  This life is just a pale shadow of what to come, and as such, what we experience here is as a shadow of what we will feel in the life to come should we be righteous.  This means that the three items above would be even MORE important for us to have and experience in the next life than it is in this one, and to be complete and be whole as the Lord intends, we need to have eternal marriage.

Obviously, this just touches on the foundational issues of marriage, and mostly talks about the here and now, but as the here and now is a shadow of the hereafter, this applies in that manner as well.  The same laws of the matter apply here, as would apply there in many ways.  I could talk a great deal more on this (I can have posts that go on for a great while, but that tends to bore many) but hopefully this talks about some of the very basic ideas of why we have marriage as such an important ideal in our lives within the church.

Edited by JohnsonJones
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7 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

There are several reasons, some of which I won't go into here, but are rather important in and of themselves.  ......

As I have pondered some of the notions you have "touched" upon; I would enlarge some (one) of what are perhaps what you have described as among the several reasons.  For me, the must stunning attribute of G-d or that of G-dlyness is "Sacrifice".  I am convinced that this single attribute is perhaps even the greatest of all.  It is the first covenant to which we are instructed of in our temple education concerning that of becoming more G-dly under the divine tutelage of our Father in  Heaven.   What I believe is most often missing in this world's understanding of marriage is that the first principle of divine marriage is Sacrifice.   The sacrifice necessary for a divine eternal marriage is of the same stripe as was the sacrifice of Christ.  Thus marriage is not just becoming one with someone else -- it is becoming one with G-d by participating in sacrifice of one's self.

Sometimes we think of that sacrificing of one's life in war as the great sacrifice.  We think this in part because of Jesus saying that the greatest love is the sacrifice on one's life.  But death is not necessarily the sacrifice of life.  Our life is comprised of our desires, dreams, hopes and ambitions.   Marriage is the sacrifice of self for the divine benefit and exaltation of others.  The first benefit is for ours spouse.   The second benefit is for our children.

Hopefully I will not offend someone but children are created only through the relationship of a man and a woman.    I believe that it is appointed that the creation of a human child is that greatest purpose of a G-d.  For all our understanding of science there is no greater or rare achievement of this universe than that of intelligent life - and for all we know humans are the only known intelligence species of life as we know it.  I have come to believe that marriage is not a celebration of personal achievement and a self celebrated love.  Rather it is more of a sacrifice of self and giving away of one's passions - not for self indulgence but the creation of that which is divine and in complete harmony with the creation of life - all of which is given as a personal sacrifice to our spouse as an act of love specific to both them and G-d .  Thus creation is itself an act of salvation and art of sacrifice - and so, marriage and family is the greatest sacrifice and a sacrifice most like that of the Atonement of Christ.

 

The Traveler

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