Two questions about Alma 40

[askandanswer]

My scripture reading took me to Alma 40 this morning and as I read, the following two questions came to mind:

Alma 40:`14

 Now this is the state of the ^asouls of the ^bwicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, ^cfearful looking for the fiery ^dindignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this ^estate, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

This verse comes from what has been described as the most correct book on earth, with no translation issues. Would it be even more correct to say that God will look upon the souls of the wicked with more sadness and sorrow than with fiery indignation? Or can we conclude that Alma was writing according to what truth he knew then, but today we have more truth?

Alma 40: 26

How consistent is Alma 40:26 with Doctrine and Covenants 76: 89?

26 But behold, an awful ^adeath cometh upon the wicked; for they die as to things pertaining to things of righteousness; for they are unclean, and ^bno unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of God; but they are cast out, and consigned to partake of the fruits of their labors or their works, which have been evil; and they drink the dregs of a bitter ^ccup.

 

89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;

Might this be another example of Alma writing according to what he knew and of we, in the latter-days, now knowing more?

 

[Just_A_Guy]

It may well be that Alma is writing according to his own perception and perspectives.  One other approach—and I don’t usually get this hyper-textualist in my scriptural interpretations these days, but I sort of like this one:  

Alma in verse 14 doesn’t say that God really views such people with indignation and wrath; he only says that such people look for a God who views them in that way.  I would suggest that breaking through that feeling of being rejected/despised by God, is a key part of ultimately becoming reconciled to Him.  Remember, this is being spoken by a guy who was in Hell for all intents and purposes; but who got forgiveness (and redemption from Hell) literally the moment he thought to ask for it.

Edited December 4, 2021 by Just_A_Guy

[Fether]

3 hours ago, askandanswer said:

My scripture reading took me to Alma 40 this morning and as I read, the following two questions came to mind:

Alma 40:`14

 Now this is the state of the ^asouls of the ^bwicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, ^cfearful looking for the fiery ^dindignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this ^estate, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

This verse comes from what has been described as the most correct book on earth, with no translation issues. Would it be even more correct to say that God will look upon the souls of the wicked with more sadness and sorrow than with fiery indignation? Or can we conclude that Alma was writing according to what truth he knew then, but today we have more truth?

Alma 40: 26

How consistent is Alma 40:26 with Doctrine and Covenants 76: 89?

26 But behold, an awful ^adeath cometh upon the wicked; for they die as to things pertaining to things of righteousness; for they are unclean, and ^bno unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of God; but they are cast out, and consigned to partake of the fruits of their labors or their works, which have been evil; and they drink the dregs of a bitter ^ccup.

 

89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;

Might this be another example of Alma writing according to what he knew and of we, in the latter-days, now knowing more?

 

I would argue that the wicked are not those that fall to sin, who struggle with weakness or reject Christianity. but rather those that choose to do evil and harm others. Those that choose to lead others away from Christ.

Alma is speaking to his son Coritanton. We don’t know the full story, but what we do know is that Corianton was chosen to be a missionary, but chose to do wicked instead and his actions lead many from the church (Alma 39:1-11).

[CV75]

4 hours ago, askandanswer said:

My scripture reading took me to Alma 40 this morning and as I read, the following two questions came to mind:

Alma 40:`14

 Now this is the state of the ^asouls of the ^bwicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, ^cfearful looking for the fiery ^dindignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this ^estate, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

This verse comes from what has been described as the most correct book on earth, with no translation issues. Would it be even more correct to say that God will look upon the souls of the wicked with more sadness and sorrow than with fiery indignation? Or can we conclude that Alma was writing according to what truth he knew then, but today we have more truth?

Alma 40: 26

How consistent is Alma 40:26 with Doctrine and Covenants 76: 89?

26 But behold, an awful ^adeath cometh upon the wicked; for they die as to things pertaining to things of righteousness; for they are unclean, and ^bno unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of God; but they are cast out, and consigned to partake of the fruits of their labors or their works, which have been evil; and they drink the dregs of a bitter ^ccup.

 

89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;

Might this be another example of Alma writing according to what he knew and of we, in the latter-days, now knowing more?

 

Wicked means without faith, which is fear (as in the man who buried the talent). The teaching in Alma 40 was prior to the Lord’s three-day visit to the spirits of the righteous, so the spirit world captives in this fearful state had not yet heard or received the Good News. I suppose there are those who are yet wicked after hearing it, but such is the timing and context of Alma 40.

The fear of fiery indignation is from the limited perspective of the wicked, or the ones who would bury their talent. This verse is not from God’s perspective, which is described elsewhere in the most correct book.

D&C 76 is about the post resurrection kingdoms of glory, not what goes on in the spirit world.

[JohnsonJones]

12 hours ago, askandanswer said:

My scripture reading took me to Alma 40 this morning and as I read, the following two questions came to mind:

Alma 40:`14

 Now this is the state of the ^asouls of the ^bwicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, ^cfearful looking for the fiery ^dindignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this ^estate, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

This verse comes from what has been described as the most correct book on earth, with no translation issues. Would it be even more correct to say that God will look upon the souls of the wicked with more sadness and sorrow than with fiery indignation? Or can we conclude that Alma was writing according to what truth he knew then, but today we have more truth?

As @Just_A_Guy pointed out, this was written from the perspective of the wicked and what they expect.  It is like the child who got caught with their hand in the cookie jar.  They (well, many kids at least) have a sense of dread because they know they were caught doing something they shouldn't and now are fearful of the consequences or that the consequences will be even worse than what they think. 

Quote

Alma 40: 26

How consistent is Alma 40:26 with Doctrine and Covenants 76: 89?

26 But behold, an awful ^adeath cometh upon the wicked; for they die as to things pertaining to things of righteousness; for they are unclean, and ^bno unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of God; but they are cast out, and consigned to partake of the fruits of their labors or their works, which have been evil; and they drink the dregs of a bitter ^ccup.

 

89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;

Might this be another example of Alma writing according to what he knew and of we, in the latter-days, now knowing more?

 

This post doesn't cover it entirely, but a short summary which still doesn't cover it in full, but the basic jist of it all (meaning there is more to it, but this briefly covers such items in general).

Those who sin and do not repent, or cannot repent due to how serious the sin is, will still need to pay some price for their sins.  The Lord does not force anyone to accept the atonement if they do not wish to.  We have our free agency to choose good or evil.  Those who choose evil and then choose to reject the atonement have their sins weigh heavily upon them.  As they rejected that which could save them from punishment, they must pay that punishment, or the "fruits of the labors of their works."

As we know from what the Lord went through, that is a very bitter cup. 

These are they that did NOT accept the gospel or the testimony of Jesus, but do not reject it so fully that they are immune to see the consequences of what they have wrought.  They will see the consequences and suffer the penalties, and when such happens will realize why.  They will not be so full of hate (a few will be) that they will reject it still, but will yearn to be saved from such.  When they are suffering from the results of their sins and not accepting the atonement, they will have the opportunity to finally see a chance to come to the Lord again and as such, every knee shall bow and they shall be redeemed.

There is a bright side to this though, that for the most part, eventually, almost everyone will turn and accept the atonement of the Lord.  For those who are suffering as such who rejected the atonement in this life and in their lives, they will not be completely abandoned to their fate.  In the end, they can be saved in the Kingdom, though at a lesser glory than others.  They will finally be saved and as such, after they have knelt to the Lord, coming into a glory that surpasses all understanding.

Edited December 5, 2021 by JohnsonJones

[Traveler]

From my learning of ancient studies as an armature scholar I would add something that I believe is missing or not understood.  Anciently the term "Righteous" meant someone that made and kept covenants with G-d.  Opposed to righteousness is that of the "Wicked" - which anciently meant those that refused to covenant with G-d or deliberately or intentionally broke their covenants with G-d.   I believe it is important to realize that in understanding of "Agency" to realize that our choice is to either covenant with G-d (become and agent of G-d) or to covenant with Satan - thus becoming an agent of Satan.

As Latter-day Saints, I believe, that we are to understand the "the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them" -- not as an abandonment of G-d's love for their person but disapproval and rejection of the path they have both chosen and another path they have rejected.   In scripture we understand that Jesus is the path of the righteous - we can also understand that Satan is the path of the wicked.  Thus we bring upon ourselves "the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them" by walking the covenant path of Satan.

 

The Traveler

[Vort]

On 12/4/2021 at 3:35 PM, askandanswer said:

My scripture reading took me to Alma 40 this morning and as I read, the following two questions came to mind:

Alma 40:`14

 Now this is the state of the ^asouls of the ^bwicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, ^cfearful looking for the fiery ^dindignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this ^estate, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

This verse comes from what has been described as the most correct book on earth, with no translation issues. Would it be even more correct to say that God will look upon the souls of the wicked with more sadness and sorrow than with fiery indignation?

No, your restatement would not be any more correct than Alma's.

On 12/4/2021 at 3:35 PM, askandanswer said:

Or can we conclude that Alma was writing according to what truth he knew then, but today we have more truth? 

Not at all. We can conclude that Alma wrote the exact truth, word for word. If we find such teachings hard to hear, the problem lies with us, not with the word of God.

On 12/4/2021 at 3:35 PM, askandanswer said:

How consistent is Alma 40:26 with Doctrine and Covenants 76: 89?

26 But behold, an awful ^adeath cometh upon the wicked; for they die as to things pertaining to things of righteousness; for they are unclean, and ^bno unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of God; but they are cast out, and consigned to partake of the fruits of their labors or their works, which have been evil; and they drink the dregs of a bitter ^ccup.

89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;

Might this be another example of Alma writing according to what he knew and of we, in the latter-days, now knowing more?

No. This is Alma stating the same divine doctrine that was revealed to Joseph Smith millennia later. Do we know more today than Alma knew? Perhaps we do, in some ancillary sense; for example, Alma gives no obvious evidence that he was aware of various kingdoms of glory in the hereafter. But I am confident that Alma understood the nature of God's justice and expressed himself in accord with his correct knowledge.

Can you explain exactly what it is you find distressing about these verses, A&A? If you can formulate your troubled feelings into words, the solution to your dilemma may become immediately apparent.

[mikbone]

Alma 40:11 explains that this understanding came from the instruction of an angel.  So it is accurate

As CV75 explained, this took place before Christ opened up spirit prison for missionary work.

You must imagine what Spirit Prison was like without the influence of the gospel.  What would it be like to exist in an environment full of discontented / disobedient spirits.  Anarchy? War? Confusion?  Imagine finding yourself in a new location without understand with none of your friends or family, among waring tribes fighting for power.  You have no recollection of the pre-mortal existence, yet you do remember you mortal experience with clarity.  For those spirits who had an understanding of God, be it Jehovah, Odin, or Zeus.  It would have been obvious that they were not in Heaven, Valhalla, or the Elysian Fields.

This explains Alma 40:14 very well in my mind.

[Jersey Boy]

On 12/4/2021 at 4:35 PM, askandanswer said:

My scripture reading took me to Alma 40 this morning and as I read, the following two questions came to mind:

Alma 40:`14

 Now this is the state of the ^asouls of the ^bwicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, ^cfearful looking for the fiery ^dindignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this ^estate, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

This verse comes from what has been described as the most correct book on earth, with no translation issues. Would it be even more correct to say that God will look upon the souls of the wicked with more sadness and sorrow than with fiery indignation? Or can we conclude that Alma was writing according to what truth he knew then, but today we have more truth?

Alma 40: 26

How consistent is Alma 40:26 with Doctrine and Covenants 76: 89?

26 But behold, an awful ^adeath cometh upon the wicked; for they die as to things pertaining to things of righteousness; for they are unclean, and ^bno unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of God; but they are cast out, and consigned to partake of the fruits of their labors or their works, which have been evil; and they drink the dregs of a bitter ^ccup.

 

89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;

Might this be another example of Alma writing according to what he knew and of we, in the latter-days, now knowing more?

 

Alma 40 is in complete harmony with Doctrine and Covenants 76. Alma diligently enquired of God to know the state of all men between death and the resurrection, and an angel (no less) answered Alma’s earnest inquiry.. The angel revealed that at death all men, whether they be good or evil, are first taken home to that God who gave them life. Brigham Young said that, in this context, the meaning of being taken home to God is that all men, whether they be good or evil, are placed within the reach of God’s grace as he continues to strive with men, including the wicked, in order to bring to pass their eventual salvation in one of the three kingdoms of heavenly glory.

It’s important to understand that whether the spirits of men are placed in paradise or in the spirit prison, God’s presence and empowered teaching missionaries are there striving with both the righteous and the wicked in order to either convert them to the gospel of Jesus Christ or more fully convert them (as Doctrine and Covenants 138 so amply demonstrates). But eventually there will come a time, just prior to the final judgement, when God’s arm of mercy and forbearance will be withdrawn, and by then all men will have either been resurrected into glory crossed OR over into paradise awaiting resurrection after having been taught the gospel of the Son of God and sincerely accepting it. Meanwhile those who yet remain in the spirit prison will be none other than the utterly rebellious and unconverted sons of perdition. If you read Alma 40 with the above perspective, it becomes obvious that the wicked spoken of in verse 13 are the sons of perdition who would not avail themselves the mercy they were being offered.

11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.
12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous (i.e. all those who will eventually accept the gospel, including the repentant wicked) are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.
13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord (an obvious reference to the sons of perdition)’; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness (another obvious reference to the sons of perdition) ; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.
14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection (the wicked who accept the gospel in the spirit prison will be transferred to paradise prior to their resurrection). Alma 40

  

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Jersey Boy

[laronius]

This reminds me of D&C 19 where the Lord explains the use of some terminology he chooses to use.

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.
7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

 

[Anddenex]

On 12/4/2021 at 4:35 PM, askandanswer said:

My scripture reading took me to Alma 40 this morning and as I read, the following two questions came to mind:

Alma 40:`14

 Now this is the state of the ^asouls of the ^bwicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, ^cfearful looking for the fiery ^dindignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this ^estate, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

This verse comes from what has been described as the most correct book on earth, with no translation issues. Would it be even more correct to say that God will look upon the souls of the wicked with more sadness and sorrow than with fiery indignation? Or can we conclude that Alma was writing according to what truth he knew then, but today we have more truth?

As to the first question, I would agree with the thought that God will look upon his children's souls who will not be with him in the eternities with more sorrow than fiery indignation. I think the verse is also looking from the sinner's perspective, as it state that the souls of the wicked will be looking for the fiery indignation from God upon them. I think this will be part of the wailing and gnashing of teeth as these children learn how much God loved them, how much he did for them, and how his plan was perfect. Thus, the term "Thy ways are just."

If we take what Alma was writing, in light of the restoration (when we only had the Bible), this is a truth that was lost during the Apostacy, which means it would not be a truth we had more as of today. I would agree though Alma was writing according to what he knew to be true as revealed by an angel. Without the restoration, having only the Bible, Alma knew more than the people did at the time of the beginning of the restoration.

On 12/4/2021 at 4:35 PM, askandanswer said:

Alma 40: 26

How consistent is Alma 40:26 with Doctrine and Covenants 76: 89?

26 But behold, an awful ^adeath cometh upon the wicked; for they die as to things pertaining to things of righteousness; for they are unclean, and ^bno unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of God; but they are cast out, and consigned to partake of the fruits of their labors or their works, which have been evil; and they drink the dregs of a bitter ^ccup.

 

89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;

Might this be another example of Alma writing according to what he knew and of we, in the latter-days, now knowing more?

 

Same as above. The glory of the telestial wasn't something know at the time of the beginning of the restoration.

[Fifthziff]

On 12/4/2021 at 4:35 PM, askandanswer said:

My scripture reading took me to Alma 40 this morning and as I read, the following two questions came to mind:

Alma 40:`14

 Now this is the state of the ^asouls of the ^bwicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, ^cfearful looking for the fiery ^dindignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this ^estate, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

This verse comes from what has been described as the most correct book on earth, with no translation issues. Would it be even more correct to say that God will look upon the souls of the wicked with more sadness and sorrow than with fiery indignation? Or can we conclude that Alma was writing according to what truth he knew then, but today we have more truth?

Alma 40: 26

How consistent is Alma 40:26 with Doctrine and Covenants 76: 89?

26 But behold, an awful ^adeath cometh upon the wicked; for they die as to things pertaining to things of righteousness; for they are unclean, and ^bno unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of God; but they are cast out, and consigned to partake of the fruits of their labors or their works, which have been evil; and they drink the dregs of a bitter ^ccup.

 

89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;

Might this be another example of Alma writing according to what he knew and of we, in the latter-days, now knowing more?

 

I'm sorry, maybe I am missing something.  Where are you seeing that God will look upon their souls with sadness and sorrow when they are in spirit prison?  I am not seeing that scripture reference.