The unclean


romans8
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On 1/29/2022 at 11:27 AM, Traveler said:

It seams to me that our conversations are very one sided.  Perhaps you are completely in a searching phase and yet you say, "I do not get any indication that the cherubs on the mercy seat are in direct opposition" but you offer no other explanations or anything that relates to your understanding (indications) or how you came to whatever conclusion you have obtained.    Why is that?

I was just commenting on your interpretation of the two cherubs.

When I read the Old Testament account of the mercy seat with the cherubs, there is no indication
that they are face to face as if they are in battle with each other like hockey teams trying to
beat each other in a game. 

Face to face can also mean agreement and cooperation, not opposition.

In a previous post, you did not indicate how the High Priest could look at the mercy seat and say 
"this one here is the accuser cherub" and "that one there is the advocate cherub".

Since the cherubim are both made of gold, it is very unlikely that gold would represent both Christ 
and Lucifer. Jesus is not a cherub.

https://www.christianstudylibrary.org/article/mercy-seat-god has a good discussion about this.

Let me know what you think about it.

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On 2/4/2022 at 9:22 PM, romans8 said:

I was just commenting on your interpretation of the two cherubs.

When I read the Old Testament account of the mercy seat with the cherubs, there is no indication
that they are face to face as if they are in battle with each other like hockey teams trying to
beat each other in a game. 

Face to face can also mean agreement and cooperation, not opposition.

In a previous post, you did not indicate how the High Priest could look at the mercy seat and say 
"this one here is the accuser cherub" and "that one there is the advocate cherub".

Since the cherubim are both made of gold, it is very unlikely that gold would represent both Christ 
and Lucifer. Jesus is not a cherub.

https://www.christianstudylibrary.org/article/mercy-seat-god has a good discussion about this.

Let me know what you think about it.

Sorry for the delay.  I will attempt to address your concerns.  Let us begin with a reference in the New Testament, book of John, chapter 5, verse 39: “Search the scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life; and they are they which testify of me.”  I would exhort that you think of the vast possibilities of this simple and precise New Testament revelation – that any reference to eternal life or the salvation (exaltation - including judgment) of man is related directly (literally) or indirectly (symbolically) to the life, mission and atonement of Jesus Christ

Let us turn to one such scripture that Jesus suggested we search to learn more of him and his mission.  But this is not specifically just about Him or his mission – it is specifically about his opposition and advisory.  The symbolism of this reference is stunning, especially in the setting of our discussion.  Turning now to the Book of Ezekiel in the Old Testament chapter 28 beginning with verse 11.  But before I display this scripture, I would note the importance of Ezekiel among the Jews at the time of Jesus was far greater than historically thought as now has been established by the Dead See Scriptures (I can provide references of this increased importance if necessary):

Quote

11 ¶ Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

 

I have quoted the entire ancient poetic format in order that there is no confusion concerning the literary symbolic content and intent.   There is a great deal of symbolism in this sacred book of Scripture written in its entirety in an ancient Hebrew poetry (symbolic) format.  I would now draw you to the underlined bolded part of verse 14.  The first point I would have you consider is the word “anointed”.  We are reading this in English.  Anciently the word in Hebrew for a divine anointment is translated in English as “Messiah” – in Greek the English word is translated as “Christ”.  Please note that these are references we normally ascribe exclusively to Jesus.

The next part of interest concerning this bolded and underlined text is in reference to a “Cherub that covereth”.  I can only find one reference in all of scripture that refers to covering Cherubim and that is in direct reference to the Cherubim on the “Mercy Seat” that was placed in the most holy place in the Temple of G-d (temple of G-d is often symbolically referenced as the “Mountain of G-d and vice versa) built by the commandment of G-d in ancient Israel.   There are other symbols in the ancient Temple of G-d that parallel this sacred reference – but I see no reason to reference such sacred things if you continue if you cannot see this symbolism.   Also – If you have any better interpretations of such sacred symbolic references – I would be most interested. 

As we continue to seek truth in this piece of scripture – it is obvious that this anointed cherub (Messiah or Christ) turns from the light of truth into something very corrupt and void of “light and truth”.

If you are unwilling to deal with Satan as one of the covering cherub as seeming testified in scripture I would be interested in why and what references (if any) you may have that reveal more.

I can provide additional witness from the scripture that the (anointed) cherub or Christ that is the keeper of the way to the tree of life is Jesus (the Way) as Jesus testified that such things do indeed testify of him.  My question to you is, why do you continue your skepticism that Jesus and Satan are in opposition, competing for the souls of mankind?  Upon what? Are you basing your opinion?  What is the result of your studies of sacred scripture in reference to such an important concept or doctrine?

 

The Traveler

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On 2/16/2022 at 3:02 PM, Traveler said:

I can provide additional witness from the scripture that the (anointed) cherub or Christ that is the keeper of the way to the tree of life is Jesus (the Way) as Jesus testified that such things do indeed testify of him.  My question to you is, why do you continue your skepticism that Jesus and Satan are in opposition, competing for the souls of mankind?  Upon what? Are you basing your opinion?  What is the result of your studies of sacred scripture in reference to such an important concept or doctrine?

I'm leaning more towards the comments made in https://www.christianstudylibrary.org/article/mercy-seat-god

I do believe Jesus and Satan are in opposition, but I do not view Jesus as a cherub. Neither do I see any indication
in the Old Testament description of the mercy seat that the cherubs are in opposition to each other.

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On 2/16/2022 at 3:02 PM, Traveler said:

If you are unwilling to deal with Satan as one of the covering cherub as seeming testified in scripture I would be interested in why and what references (if any) you may have that reveal more.

In Exodus 25:18-22, I got the impression that you believe the cherubs really do not have wings
but that wings is symbolic of power or authority and that face to face means their are not in
unison but in opposition.

I will assume you believe Jesus has more power/authority than Satan. If you look at the construction
of the mercy seat as described in Exodus, what would give you the impression that the two cherubs
were unequal in power or authority?

Would you always be able to tell which left or right cherub was the advocate cherub as you faced
the mercy seat from the other side, assuming it was rectangular?

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1 hour ago, romans8 said:

In Exodus 25:18-22, I got the impression that you believe the cherubs really do not have wings
but that wings is symbolic of power or authority and that face to face means their are not in
unison but in opposition.

I will assume you believe Jesus has more power/authority than Satan. If you look at the construction
of the mercy seat as described in Exodus, what would give you the impression that the two cherubs
were unequal in power or authority?

Would you always be able to tell which left or right cherub was the advocate cherub as you faced
the mercy seat from the other side, assuming it was rectangular?

First - I am confused as to your understanding concerning one of the Cherubim referenced in Ezekiel.  I am getting the impression that you are cherry picking select scriptures (and principles of doctrine) and ignoring others (specifically Ezekiel) to make your point????   For example - are you aware of any reference to covering Cherubim other that the symbolism we are given concerning the mercy seat?

Concerning your question about the power of Satan verses the power of Jesus.  Obviously the power of Satan exceeds the power of Christ in certain individuals and vice a versa in other individuals - which is the core meaning of the final judgment of G-d which is the foundation of understanding the mercy seat and the symbolism of what we all should be prepared to "face".

 

The Traveler

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