Faith and Politics


prisonchaplain
 Share

Recommended Posts

On 2/8/2022 at 2:36 AM, JohnsonJones said:

We also assume that everyone WANTS the responsibilities that will come with higher Kingdoms.  With more or higher rewards come a higher sense of responsibility (1 Talent vs. 5 talents vs 10 talents and being put as the steward of the house).

"...eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared for them that love him..."

The reasoning you offer is the same reasoning I clung to for many years, so I believe I authentically know where you're coming from. I mean this authentically; I do not wish to be condescending.

I finally abandoned that line of reasoning when I realized that the scriptures uniformly spoke of "heaven", what we would call "exaltation", as an unmitigated good, and I could never find a single scriptural passage that suggested that some people would simply be constitutionally happier not having to deal with all that celestial stuff.

Some people will indeed choose, in some sense, a telestial or terrestrial glory over that of exaltation, but that is not because they would have been unhappy had they prepared themselves to accept a celestial law. It is because "...they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received." That is the barebones truth. They are simply unwilling to enjoy the gifts proffered by a loving Father.

Edited by Vort
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Vort said:

"...eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared for them that love him..."

The reasoning you offer is the same reasoning I clung to for many years, so I believe I authentically know where you're coming from. I finally abandoned that line of reasoning when I realized that the scriptures uniformly spoke of "heaven", what we would call "exaltation", as an unmitigated good, and I could never find a single scriptural passage that suggested that some people would simply be constitutionally happier not having to deal with all that celestial stuff.

Some people will indeed choose, in some sense, a telestial or terrestrial glory over that of exaltation, but that is not because they would have been unhappy had they prepared themselves to accept a celestial law. It is because "...they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received." That is the barebones truth. They are simply unwilling to enjoy the gifts proffered by a loving Father.

Will the differences between kingdoms be beauty, delicious foods, party games, internet connection, health care? Or will the differences be duty, and with duty comes further capability? Perhaps something else?

I know plenty of people who have no desire for callings and would be happier not involved in that. They also feel little pain in the fact that they aren’t involved in stake high counsel meeting.

What could they possibly miss out on that would make them wish to be there?

Edited by Fether
Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, Fether said:

Will the differences between kingdoms be beauty, delicious foods, party games, internet connection, health care? Or will the differences be duty, and with duty comes further capability? Perhaps something else?

I know plenty of people who have no desire for callings and would be happier not involved in that. They also feel little pain in the fact that they aren’t involved in stake high counsel meeting.

What could they possibly miss out on that would make them wish to be there?

Eternal life.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Fether said:
57 minutes ago, Vort said:

Eternal life.

Which is what exactly 

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

"And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God."

"...eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared for them that love him..."

This topic is discussed in Church meetings every Sunday.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Vort said:

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

"And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God."

"...eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared for them that love him..."

This topic is discussed in Church meetings every Sunday.

I recognize that. But what that entails isn’t exactly ever spelled at. Only one of those references you gave gives any sort of substance. To know God and Christ (which still isn’t clear).

is that all they are missing? To know God?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/8/2022 at 5:32 PM, Fether said:

Which is what exactly 

The only thing we know for sure are these items:
1) We dwell with the Father and receive all the Father hath

2) We remain "bound" (sealed) to our eternal companion

3) We have the continuation of seed

4) What Christ said in mortality remains true in immortality, what the Father doeth we do. (This is the only ambiguous statement regarding eternal life, exaltation)

Edited by Anddenex
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

The only thing we know for sure are two items:
1) We dwell with the Father and receive all the Father hath

2) We remain "bound" (sealed) to our eternal companion

3) We have the continuation of seed

4) What Christ said in mortality remains true in immortality, what the Father doeth we do. (This is the only ambiguous statement regarding eternal life, exaltation)

So my question is just based on whether or not we think there are people who look at those blessings and say “nah”

numbers 2 and 3 I can see people being ok missing out on. Don’t know about 1 and 4

Edited by Fether
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Fether said:

So my question is just based on whether or not we think there are people who look at those blessings and say “nah”

numbers 2 and 3 I can see people being ok missing out on. Don’t know about 1 and 4

We know there are spirits out there that saw free agency, choice, and the responsibility that went with it and said..."nah" to it.  A third of the host of heaven in fact (though I imagine they still wanted bodies and such, or at least most of them, I'm not positive on that).

I feel that a LOT of the things of this life, the situation and circumstances we are born into and the events of our lives have a LOT to do with what we wanted and chose in the pre-existence.  There are those that DID NOT WANT to be born with the gospel, or wanted to have certain things in this life and not others.

Our Father is all-knowing.  He already knows what the outcome will be.  This test, in many ways, is for US.  It is to teach us as well as let us be able to KNOW and UNDERSTAND ourselves and where we end up and why we end up there. 

Edited by JohnsonJones
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Vort said:

Yep, that's it. Just knowing God, along with all that entails and implies.

Great, and what does that entail and imply? 

(Side note: my comment on asking if that was it was a question of quantity, not quality)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Fether said:

Great, and what does that entail and imply? 

(Side note: my comment on asking if that was it was a question of quantity, not quality)

Here's the best I can do.

"And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God."

"...eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared for them that love him..."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Vort said:

Here's the best I can do.

"And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God."

"...eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared for them that love him..."

You are swaying me. Though my mind is not quite content with either side of the argument.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, Vort said:

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

"And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God."

"...eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared for them that love him..."

This topic is discussed in Church meetings every Sunday.

A similar discussion takes place over the doctrine of hell (or outer darkness). Some, myself included, believe that as terrible as hell would seem to be, for those against God heaven would be worse. Imagine being opposed to someone and then having to live an eternity in a place where that person's presence provides the light and permeates every breath. It's the one existence that might be worse than hell for some. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, Fether said:

So my question is just based on whether or not we think there are people who look at those blessings and say “nah”

numbers 2 and 3 I can see people being ok missing out on. Don’t know about 1 and 4

I honestly believe in this life that is the case, and when we immediately return after death we carry with us our same desires and thoughts. In that light, yes, there are people who will initially think "nah."

In the end though, when light and knowledge is given (the purpose of our creation known) I believe these individuals will recognize what they missed and how ignorant that belief was. This is part of the "burning" in hell so to speak. Looking at what could have been and knowing that you (general) rejected it.

Edited by Anddenex
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/4/2022 at 7:26 PM, Godless said:

This is my biggest beef with aggressive Christians. Like it or not, you put yourself on a moral pedestal. Don't get mad when the rest of us hold you to your own high standards. I'm not saying it's right when "my side" throws stones at yours, but the pious have a self-imposed imperative to be more loving, patient, and long-suffering. Personally, I think it's a very admirable standard, and I have an immense amount of respect for Christians who actually live by it, partly because (on the internet in particular) it seems like a lot of self-proclaimed Christians don't. 

I've long believed that many vocal far-right Christians act more like the Pharisees who persecuted Christ and demanded his crucifixion rather than the disciples who followed him. With today's political climate pushing more people into the fringes, this is seemingly becoming more true. People jump at any opportunity to score some cheap political points, without regard to who it may hurt. And yes, both sides are guilty of this. But again, one side uses divine teachings as a basis for their moral standing. They weaponize their faith and then wonder why hostility is growing against people of faith.

For me I am more concerned with those that push the separation of church and state - meaning that religion should not have input into laws and insist that morals should not be legislated.  I would point out that in human societies that the only thing that can be legislated are morals.  We are not going to change the universal gravitational constant with legislation.  And when it comes to morals we will never need to pass any law when all parties are in agreement of morals.  We have also discovered that the only morals that get legislated are the morals of those that have the power to legislate the law.  The great debate is always about what morals are legislated.  I am not a fan of mob rule but I tend to favor the majority (democracy) when it come to the law.  Though the religious notion of superior law is by definition - a benevolent king.  The problem is that in human society there are a lot of g-d imposters - especially in politics as well as religion.

The absolute worse morals (laws) come from those that wish to hold others to a standard that they do not hold to themselves -- regardless of the reason. 

 

The Traveler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/4/2022 at 6:26 PM, Godless said:

This is my biggest beef with aggressive Christians. Like it or not, you put yourself on a moral pedestal. Don't get mad when the rest of us hold you to your own high standards. I'm not saying it's right when "my side" throws stones at yours, but the pious have a self-imposed imperative to be more loving, patient, and long-suffering. Personally, I think it's a very admirable standard, and I have an immense amount of respect for Christians who actually live by it, partly because (on the internet in particular) it seems like a lot of self-proclaimed Christians don't. 

Thank you. I agree. Non-believers, most anyway, want Christians of all stripes (especially us 'far right' folk) to succeed at our religion--to actually be Christian--or 'be Christ' as we like to say. Done right, our lives can engender a 'holy envy.' Great reminder!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:
On 2/4/2022 at 6:26 PM, Godless said:

This is my biggest beef with aggressive Christians. Like it or not, you put yourself on a moral pedestal. Don't get mad when the rest of us hold you to your own high standards. I'm not saying it's right when "my side" throws stones at yours, but the pious have a self-imposed imperative to be more loving, patient, and long-suffering. Personally, I think it's a very admirable standard, and I have an immense amount of respect for Christians who actually live by it, partly because (on the internet in particular) it seems like a lot of self-proclaimed Christians don't. 

Thank you. I agree.

I do not agree. At least, I think I don't.

Let's quantify this. Exactly how much better than the Average Joe does a Christian have to be in order to meet the unbelievers' high standards? 26.5%? A meter and a half? Twelve pounds? $1120?

For that matter, why does anyone care what the unbelievers think on such issues? How is their opinion at all relevant to a sincere Christian? Do we ask a whore to instruct us on sexual morality? Do we look to 14-year-old high school freshmen to teach us graduate-level physics?

Hypocrisy reeks no matter who is engaging in it. I agree that a so-called Christian engaging in open hypocrisy is more offensive in a moral sense, at least to me, than your run-of-the-mill worldly hypocrite.

But every true Christian (Scotsman or otherwise) knows that your first battle against evil is within yourself, and that battle never really stops during your lifetime. You, Brother or Sister Christian (cue Night Ranger), will inevitably fail sometimes. You will betray yourself and find a reason to justify doing the evil thing, even though you know that you will need to repent. And your repentance will be all the more bitter and painful because it was intentional. Such self-betrayal is a form of hypocrisy.

Now, when you find yourself in this state, having transgressed not just God's word but your own conscience, should you worry about what all the unbelievers will think? That's tempting. We are called to testify to the (wicked) world of Christ, after all, so we  might feel we have somehow let our unbelieving brothers and sisters down. And so we have. But the fact remains that their judgment is irrelevant to you. In fact, the judgment of the righteous, if such judgment exists, is irrelevant. God's judgment is the only judgment we need worry about. Repentance is personal, between you and God and no one else, unless your sin has affected others and they need to be recompensed or otherwise addressed. This includes transgressions that might call into question one's membership in Christ's kingdom, in which case haste thee to thy bishop.

(For the record, "pious" means "Godly". So the pious man by definition is more loving, patient, and long-suffering than the non-pious.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Vort said:

I do not agree. At least, I think I don't.

I think you do--at least in the way I do. If non-believers reject faith because there are pretenders in the midst of Christianity, that's not good. That's condemnation and judgment. However, if non-believers hope we mean what we say and say what we mean, and actually find hope (and perhaps spiritual curiosity) when we live up to our pronouncements, then perhaps my coattails will be long after all. Perhaps holiness is that kind of aggressiveness folks like @Godless want. If so, "Yes and amen."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

I think you do--at least in the way I do. If non-believers reject faith because there are pretenders in the midst of Christianity, that's not good. That's condemnation and judgment. However, if non-believers hope we mean what we say and say what we mean, and actually find hope (and perhaps spiritual curiosity) when we live up to our pronouncements, then perhaps my coattails will be long after all. Perhaps holiness is that kind of aggressiveness folks like @Godless want. If so, "Yes and amen."

To be fair, Christians have an impossible standard to reach. We try to behave mannerly, and we’re squares who can’t relate to average people. We try to be sarcastic and have “worldly” interests, and fellow Christians accuse us of not being good enough Christians. So it’s a tightrope act. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

I think you do--at least in the way I do. If non-believers reject faith because there are pretenders in the midst of Christianity, that's not good. That's condemnation and judgment. However, if non-believers hope we mean what we say and say what we mean, and actually find hope (and perhaps spiritual curiosity) when we live up to our pronouncements, then perhaps my coattails will be long after all. Perhaps holiness is that kind of aggressiveness folks like @Godless want. If so, "Yes and amen."

I don't think non-believers reject the faith (mostly) because of pretenders.  It's an excuse.   Just like it's an excuse when members say it's impossible so it's OK if they pursue worldly things in place of their covenants.   Ultimately, this is an "individual sport".   You don't need to keep your covenants for me to be blessed.  Likewise, when you pretend to be something you aren't, you answer for that, not me.   Sadly, it's confusing to new members to our faith or those who don't fully understand our doctrine.   That's why it's so important that we set the example and and can't be afraid to speak up when things aren't OK.   Royal "you" here.   Not you personally.  I sincerely love your insight and posts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, LDSGator said:

To be fair, Christians have an impossible standard to reach. We try to behave mannerly, and we’re squares who can’t relate to average people. We try to be sarcastic and have “worldly” interests, and fellow Christians accuse us of not being good enough Christians. So it’s a tightrope act. 

Yeah...if I tried to figure out the balance myself it would be a quick fall off that rope. Thankfully, the Holy Spirit goes before, Jesus walks beside us, and the Father has our backs. 😉

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Grunt said:

I don't think non-believers reject the faith (mostly) because of pretenders.  It's an excuse.  

That may well be true--at least often. However, sometimes hypocrisy can dishearten the potential seeker. There are  a few skeptics who will never be persuaded. Then there are the ready-made converts that just need to be asked. What of those in the messy middle? For them, a believer walking in holiness, under the anointing of the Holy Ghost, might well make the difference.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/9/2022 at 2:58 PM, prisonchaplain said:

A similar discussion takes place over the doctrine of hell (or outer darkness). Some, myself included, believe that as terrible as hell would seem to be, for those against God heaven would be worse. Imagine being opposed to someone and then having to live an eternity in a place where that person's presence provides the light and permeates every breath. It's the one existence that might be worse than hell for some. 

The other day I was listening to the car radio when an advertisement came on.  The essence of the ad was that everyone is going to Hell (eternal or forever punishment) unless they believe in Jesus Christ.  The ad had two individuals talking - one said that they thought they would go to heaven.  The other asked, "Have you ever told a lie?'  The first answered that everybody at some time has told a lie.  The second said that without believing in Jesus Christ they will go to Hell.

I am of the notion that the advertisement had conflated the truth.  Let me put this another way.  What "JUST", merciful, loving and compassionate G-d would pronounce and cause punishment of eternal Hell for a lie.  What lie is worthy of the punishment in Hell equal to the same punishment of murders and rapist?  In fact I am not sure murders and rapist are worthy of such punishment?  I cannot think of a single thing that a human is capable of that is worthy of eternal punishment in Hell - and this includes rebelling against G-d.   I have been around a lot of people I do not like but I can endure them all better than even a hour of that pain it would be to have my flesh burned off my bones.  

I do not understand your point?????

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Yeah...if I tried to figure out the balance myself it would be a quick fall off that rope. Thankfully, the Holy Spirit goes before, Jesus walks beside us, and the Father has our backs. 😉

Amen to that my friend. @Godless is dead on that it’s hard for non believers to be friends with zealous Christians because the friendship always seem contingent on them trying to “save” you. It can really make the “friendship” sound fake. So I understand fully where he’s coming from as well on that point. 

Edited by LDSGator
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share