Faith and Politics

[Fether]

I recognize some of the doctrine I mentioned above is somewhat condescending on non-believers, but from a utility standpoint, Latter-day Saint should be less pushy in Missionary work

[Grunt]

3 minutes ago, Fether said:

I would add that asking someone who doesn’t believe in God “how can I help lead you to Chris  isn’t very useful.” It might scratch the “I’m a missionary” itch, but it is unlikely to move any needle.

Sure.  This isn't a mission.  It's a discussion and I'm curious.   If the answer is "you can't", then what's the point of the discussion or complaint?   

[Fether]

1 minute ago, Grunt said:

If the answer is "you can't", then what's the point of the discussion 

Be more tactful and focus more on love than on truth

[Grunt]

3 minutes ago, Fether said:

It isn’t much of an issue. Someone isn’t any less important for wanting less than another. 

Of course it's an issue.   The benchmarks you set aren't visible.   It requires insider knowledge someone will never have.   That's why we listen to the Spirit.

[Grunt]

Just now, Fether said:

Be more tactful and focus more on love than on truth

Again, this is subjective criteria.   Truth isn't unimportant.

[Fether]

Just now, Grunt said:

Of course it's an issue.   The benchmarks you set aren't visible.   It requires insider knowledge someone will never have.   That's why we listen to the Spirit.

I’m simply pointing out that it isn’t a problem if someone would rather have a lower degree of glory than Celestial glory.  Much of this life is about finding out what we want and seeking it. We ought not lol down on those who do not want to responsibility that comes with our faith

[Fether]

1 minute ago, Grunt said:

Again, this is subjective criteria.   Truth isn't unimportant.

It’s unimportant to those that dont see it as important so there is no need to force feed it.

[Grunt]

Just now, Fether said:

I’m simply pointing out that it isn’t a problem if someone would rather have a lower degree of glory than Celestial glory.  Much of this life is about finding out what we want and seeking it. We ought not lol down on those who do not want to responsibility that comes with our faith

Ahhhh.  Then you misunderstood my post.   What I meant was the problem exists because it's difficult/impossible to tell if your benchmarks have been met in most cases.

[Grunt]

3 minutes ago, Fether said:

It’s unimportant to those that dont see it as important so there is no need to force feed it.

I don't disagree, nor did I suggest otherwise.   However, I believe that's up to the Spirit, not Fether or Grunt.   I wouldn't be a member today if several people were't pushy, even insulting, in their messaging.

Edited February 5, 2022 by Grunt

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

What’s nice about the Latter-day Saint faith and doctrine is that we are extremely universalist. Everyone is “saved” and there is nothing joining our faith will do for your salvation beyond giving you more freedom in the afterlife. 

Yeah...I completely disagree with this. In any sense that the larger religious world understands the term "universalist", we are not universalists.

[Fether]

14 minutes ago, Vort said:

Yeah...I completely disagree with this. In any sense that the larger religious world understands the term "universalist", we are not universalists.

True. Their understanding of Salvation, hell, judgement, sin, and virtually all gospel topics are different. Naturally there would need to be some adjustment of definition in universalism. 
 

All that aside, we believe Christ saved everyone and that no one is going to hell (traditional Christian view of hell). This is a universalistic view.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

All that aside, we believe Christ saved everyone and that no one is going to hell (traditional Christian view of hell). This is a universalistic view.

On the contrary, many will go to hell, whether that's a traditional sectarian view of hell or something else. Those who will not accept Christ will suffer in unfathomable ways, as did Alma, until they accept Christ. Those who refuse Christ under all circumstances (and there will indeed be such people, perhaps more than we presently understand) will be damned throughout all eternity. They are Perdition, meaning those who are eternally lost.

That ain't universalism in anyone's book.

[Fether]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

there will indeed be such people, perhaps more than we presently understand

I’ve heard the exact opposite opinion from virtually everyone I have heard speak on this. This is the first I have heard this opinion spoken.

"Latter-day revelations speak of hell in at least two ways. First, it is another name for spirit prison, a temporary place in the postmortal world for those who died without a knowledge of the truth or those who were disobedient in mortality. Second, it is the permanent location of Satan and his followers and the sons of perdition, who are not redeemed by the Atonement of Jesus Christ." - Gospel Topics

that spirit prison is temporary, sons of perdition are eternal. I guess this topic depends on whether the sons ofmoersitio. Will be infinitely small in number or far more common. I imagine the numbers will be so small that it will be inconsequential consider g the description of those who will be in the telestial kimgdom and sons of perdition

”Telestial glory will be reserved for individuals who “received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus” (Doctrine and Covenants 76:82). These individuals will receive their glory after being redeemed from spirit prison, which is sometimes called hell” - Gospel Topics

”The inhabitants of the telestial kingdom will include those who were murderers, liars, sorcerers, adulterers, and whoremongers—in general, the wicked people of the earth” - Doctrines if the gospel manual

”Those who in mortality have known the power of God, been made partakers of it, and then later denied the truth and defied God’s power will also be sons of perdition (see D&C 76:31–32). Those who deny the Holy Ghost after having received it and crucify the Savior unto themselves will have no forgiveness and will be sons of perdition (see D&C 76:34–36; Matthew 12:31–32).” - Doctrines of the Gospel Manual

I believe the number of those who “have known the power of God, been made partakers of it, and then later denied the truth and defied God’s power” will be unbelievably small

[Vort]

4 hours ago, Fether said:

I’ve heard the exact opposite opinion from virtually everyone I have heard speak on this. This is the first I have heard this opinion spoken.

"Latter-day revelations speak of hell in at least two ways. First, it is another name for spirit prison, a temporary place in the postmortal world for those who died without a knowledge of the truth or those who were disobedient in mortality. Second, it is the permanent location of Satan and his followers and the sons of perdition, who are not redeemed by the Atonement of Jesus Christ." - Gospel Topics

that spirit prison is temporary, sons of perdition are eternal. I guess this topic depends on whether the sons ofmoersitio. Will be infinitely small in number or far more common. I imagine the numbers will be so small that it will be inconsequential consider g the description of those who will be in the telestial kimgdom and sons of perdition

”Telestial glory will be reserved for individuals who “received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus” (Doctrine and Covenants 76:82). These individuals will receive their glory after being redeemed from spirit prison, which is sometimes called hell” - Gospel Topics

”The inhabitants of the telestial kingdom will include those who were murderers, liars, sorcerers, adulterers, and whoremongers—in general, the wicked people of the earth” - Doctrines if the gospel manual

”Those who in mortality have known the power of God, been made partakers of it, and then later denied the truth and defied God’s power will also be sons of perdition (see D&C 76:31–32). Those who deny the Holy Ghost after having received it and crucify the Savior unto themselves will have no forgiveness and will be sons of perdition (see D&C 76:34–36; Matthew 12:31–32).” - Doctrines of the Gospel Manual

I believe the number of those who “have known the power of God, been made partakers of it, and then later denied the truth and defied God’s power” will be unbelievably small

Nothing you have offered here (except for your opinions) indicates the number of sons of perdition will be unusually small. That is the inference made by Saints who conclude that, since denying Christ requires knowing Christ, and since there are few who truly know Christ, even among the Saints, this general ignorance of the world protects them from so damning themselves. (Strangely enough, it appears not to impede them from exaltation, a condition that requires intimate knowledge of the Savior in a personal way. But I suppose that's another topic.) In any case, this idea of protective ignorance may be right. But I personally do not find the argument particularly convincing.

As a late middle-aged adult, I have found that many people crave the flesh and its desires, and seemingly care nothing for matters of the spirit. I have neither the authority nor the desire to name the condemnation such people will face, but it is not al all obvious to me that their fate can be waved off with a casual, "Oh, they're the telestial spirits." We simply do not know enough about such things to make any such determination.

Edited February 6, 2022 by Vort

[Vort]

The larger point remains: Latter-day Saints are not universalists in any meaningful sense of the word.

Edited February 6, 2022 by Vort

[Just_A_Guy]

8 hours ago, Fether said:

I recognize some of the doctrine I mentioned above is somewhat condescending on non-believers, but from a utility standpoint, Latter-day Saint should be less pushy in Missionary work

 

8 hours ago, Fether said:

I’m simply pointing out that it isn’t a problem if someone would rather have a lower degree of glory than Celestial glory.  Much of this life is about finding out what we want and seeking it. We ought not lol down on those who do not want to responsibility that comes with our faith

I don’t know that I’d go *quite* that far.

In the first place, our theology tells us that we were created/begotten/organized as children of God.  The function of children is to grow up like their parent.  Every attribute God has, exists in embryo in us, His offspring.

Now, sure, individuals can choose not to develop some of those attributes, and (probably) eternally remain in an underdeveloped state, and they may not find the experience particularly tortuous.  But it’s also not what they were designed to become.  It’s like growing up as an amputee, and then rejecting the opportunity to have a fully-functional limb re-grown when it’s offered to me.  No, it’s not hell; but I’m still being a dipweed and ultimately needlessly limiting my potential and my quality of existence.  Similarly:  My relegation to a lesser kingdom may not constitute “damnation” or “punishment” in the classical sense, but there are indeed ramifications—some quite serious—if I reject or otherwise fail to achieve exaltation.  I suppose that if I wanted to make myself really neurotic, I might ponder on the possibility that the creation and history and exaltation of incalculable billions or trillions of inhabitants of untold thousands or millions of worlds, galaxies, and even universes; are affected by whether or not any one particular person achieves exaltation (though in practice, I prefer to think that the grace of Christ will somehow cover any failure of mine in this regard!)

Second, of more immediate concern:  I do think that much of the way we approach missionary work can be myopic, in the sense that we often allow our primary motivator to become concern for someone’s eternal well-being (especially if you’re a sedentary introvert like me who, frankly, has a hard time inconveniencing myself with tangible actions for the sake of safeguarding the future metaphysical state of a complete stranger—my service as a full-time missionary was done primarily out of a sense of duty, and I think it showed).  Being a Saint is supposed to bring an abundant life—not an abundance of material goods, perhaps; but an abundance of stability and virtue and sociality and goodness and good humor (and, of course, a meaningful sense of communion with the Divine).  I find that at the times of my life when that sort of abundance permeates my very existence, missionary work becomes almost second-nature; and it’s less about openly proselytizing than about just enjoying and amplifying the various forms of goodness I see around me, articulately and informedly expressing beliefs and answering questions in appropriate venues, and trusting that eventually people’s appreciation and admiration of goodness itself will transform into admiration of the God who is the author of all goodness.

But I also agree with @Vort:  I think there are lots and lots of people who are such absolute cranks about some topic or other that, if God won’t be prevailed upon to see things their way, they would spend a couple of eternities completely away from His influence rather than be reconciled to (or, as they would see it, “subjugated by”) Him; and I think such folks form the nucleus of the Sons of Perdition.  I think it’s fair to worry that our being too casual in using the word “Universalist” to describe our beliefs, even if it has some measure of truth (and even though I think I’ve used the word myself in some contexts), risks creating/prolonging pain by giving folks an excuse to persist in destructive behaviors and procrastinate a process of repentance and improvement and reconciliation that would make their lives qualitatively better now and easier in the hereafter.  

Edited February 6, 2022 by Just_A_Guy

[Fether]

2 hours ago, Vort said:

Nothing you have offered here (except for your opinions) indicates the number of sons of perdition will be unusually small. That is the inference made by Saints who conclude that, since denying Christ requires knowing Christ, and since there are few who truly know Christ, even among the Saints, this general ignorance of the world protects them from so damning themselves. (Strangely enough, it appears not to impede them from exaltation, a condition that requires intimate knowledge of the Savior in a personal way. But I suppose that's another topic.) In any case, this idea of protective ignorance may be right. But I personally do not find the argument particularly convincing.

As a late middle-aged adult, I have found that many people crave the flesh and its desires, and seemingly care nothing for matters of the spirit. I have neither the authority nor the desire to name the condemnation such people will face, but it is not al all obvious to me that their fate can be waved off with a casual, "Oh, they're the telestial spirits." We simply do not know enough about such things to make any such determination.

 

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

 

I don’t know that I’d go *quite* that far.

In the first place, our theology tells us that we were created/begotten/organized as children of God.  The function of children is to grow up like their parent.  Every attribute God has, exists in embryo in us, His offspring.

Now, sure, individuals can choose not to develop some of those attributes, and (probably) eternally remain in an underdeveloped state, and they may not find the experience particularly tortuous.  But it’s also not what they were designed to become.  It’s like growing up as an amputee, and then rejecting the opportunity to have a fully-functional limb re-grown when it’s offered to me.  No, it’s not hell; but I’m still being a dipweed and ultimately needlessly limiting my potential and my quality of existence.  Similarly:  My relegation to a lesser kingdom may not constitute “damnation” or “punishment” in the classical sense, but there are indeed ramifications—some quite serious—if I reject or otherwise fail to achieve exaltation.

Second, of more immediate concern:  I do think that much of the way we approach missionary work can be myopic, in the sense that we often allow our primary motivator to become concern for someone’s eternal well-being.  Being a Saint is supposed to bring an abundant life—not an abundance of material goods, perhaps; but an abundance of stability and virtue and sociality and goodness and good humor (and, of course, a meaningful sense of communion with the Divine).  I find that at the times of my life when that sort of abundance permeates my very existence, missionary work becomes almost second-nature; and it’s less about openly proselytizing than about just enjoying and amplifying the various forms of goodness I see around me, articulately and informedly expressing beliefs and answering questions in appropriate venues, and trusting that eventually people’s appreciation and admiration of goodness itself will transform into admiration of the God who is the author of all goodness.

But I also agree with @Vort:  I think there are lots and lots of people who are such absolute cranks about some topic or other that, if God won’t be prevailed upon to see things their way, they would spend a couple of eternities completely away from His influence rather than be reconciled to (or, as they would see it, “subjugated by”) Him; and I think such folks form the nucleus of the Sons of Perdition.  I think it’s fair to worry that our being too casual in using the word “Universalist” to describe our beliefs, even if it has some measure of truth (and even though I think I’ve used the word myself in some contexts), risks creating/prolonging pain by giving folks an excuse to persist in destructive behaviors and procrastinate a process of repentance and improvement and reconciliation that would make their lives qualitatively better now and easier in the hereafter.  

TLDR; I’m right, you’re wrong

I will concede that universalist is a poor word for what I am trying to say. I now recognize that it comes with the mindset of procrastination and casual worship. In my somewhat recent experience, I have 3 siblings who all left the church. Two of which never really had a strong testimony despite being raised in the same home as me and the other. My mom spent a long time beating herself up by thinking she failed as a mother and that it is her fault there will be “empty chairs at the table” in the celestial kingdom. We have spoke on this often and are confident happiness of some sort awaits them. A never ending boiling cauldron of lava is not their destination and I choose to believe Joseph Smith when he says “the glory of the telestial kingdom surpasses all understanding”. I’m not saying some amount of misery will not be experienced, I’m simply stating they will be happy where they are at. Perhaps happier there than anywhere else.
 

Brigham young was quoted to have said;

“Some might suppose that it would be a great blessing to be taken and carried directly into heaven and there set down, but in reality that would be no blessing to such persons; they could not reap a full reward, could not enjoy the glory of the kingdom, and could not comprehend and abide the light thereof, but it would be to them a hell intolerable and I suppose would consume them much quicker than would hell fire. It would be no blessing to you to be carried into the celestial kingdom, and obliged to stay therein, unless you were prepared to dwell there”

But my thoughts on this still stand, everyone is saved (except sons of perdition, which I will get to in a second). I just do t wish to include in that any sense of apathy toward missionary work.but rather an understanding that not all are elect. There seems to be some acknowledgement in scripture that only a few are elect and desires of exaltation:

“Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?
Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men” (Doctrine and Covenants 121:34-35)

“Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” (Matt 7:14)

“ye are called to bring to pass the gathering of mine elect; for mine elect hear my voice and harden not their hearts;” (Doctrine and Covenants 29:7)

“gather mine elect from the four quarters of the earth, even as many as will believe in me, and hearken unto my voice” (Doctrine and Covenants 33:6)

search “elect” in the gospel library and you will find references to finding the elect of God in virtually every general conference. Not everyone is elect and that is ok.

Lastly, before I hop topics. John 14:2 says “In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.” mansions is cross referenced to “telestial kingdom”. Ether 12:32 say God has prepared house for man among the mansions of our fatber. I have to believe God has prepared a place for everyone regardless of what truth they decide to follow. Despite not everyone being elect and fit for exaltation, there is a glories place awaiting all his children. I deliberately leave out the * that should say “except sons of perdition” because so believe that is a negligible number and not worth discussing

 

I will also concede that my thoughts on the sons of perdition being small in number is an opinion. I’ll add more context to why I think this:

“The sin against the Holy Ghost requires such knowledge that it is manifestly impossible for the rank and file to commit such a sin” (The Miracle of Forgiveness).

”What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, 6:314)

“Those who enter into the telestial kingdom, where their glories differ as do the stars of heaven in their magnitude, and who are innumerable as the sands of the seashore, are the ungodly, the filthy who suffer the wrath of God on the earth, who are thrust down to hell where they will be required to pay the uttermost farthing before their redemption comes. These are they who receive not the gospel of Christ and consequently could not deny the Holy Spirit while living on the earth.
“They have no part in the first resurrection and are not redeemed from the devil and his angels until the last resurrection, because of their wicked lives and their evil deeds. Nevertheless, even these are heirs of salvation, but before they are redeemed and enter into their kingdom, they must repent of their sins, and receive the gospel, and bow the knee, and acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ, the Redeemer of the world” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:22).

To me, it seems clear that the message trying to be conveyed is that it is extremely difficult to become a son of perdition. It’s not merely rejecting the gospel (the last quote makes that clear) but rather having received the highest of all blessings and being shown the truth in a way that removes ALL uncertainty, and THEN refusing it. Again, I’ll concede this to be opinion, but I doubt anyone I know is capable of this. One has to climb to the highest rungs of righteousness, see God, and then reject him. Knowingly reject the reality of the situation after having been made known of it.

Edited February 6, 2022 by Fether

[JohnsonJones]

On 2/5/2022 at 10:41 PM, Fether said:

To me, it seems clear that the message trying to be conveyed is that it is extremely difficult to become a son of perdition. It’s not merely rejecting the gospel (the last quote makes that clear) but rather having received the highest of all blessings and being shown the truth in a way that removes ALL uncertainty, and THEN refusing it. Again, I’ll concede this to be opinion, but I doubt anyone I know is capable of this. One has to climb to the highest rungs of righteousness, see God, and then reject him. Knowingly reject the reality of the situation after having been made known of it.

I am also of the opinion that it is rather hard to become a son of perdition.  You must have seen the sun and then deny it while it is still shining upon you.  It is to make a specific choice to fight against that which you KNOW is true.

This is why they cannot accept a kingdom of glory.  They will deny it.  They would rather suffer for all eternity than to accept such.  It isn't because the LORD wishes it, but because THEY CHOOSE this path.

That said, Spirit Prison is also a type of Hell.  When other religions talk about hell, most of the time they are referring to the same place we refer to as Spirit Prison.

I feel  (this is different than beliefs or faith) there are different areas in Hell with various experiences.  There may be areas of grave harshness where people suffer tremendously in relation to choices they made in this life.  There may be other places where there is not as much suffering. 

We are told that many, before they can receive their reward, will need to suffer eternal punishments.  We are told that there are those that go to the Telestial Kingdom that will suffer.

Doctrine and Covenants 76 talking about some who inherit the Telestial world

Quote

102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be ^agathered with the saints, to be ^bcaught up unto the ^cchurch of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.

103 These are ^athey who are ^bliars, and ^csorcerers, and ^dadulterers, and ^ewhoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

104 These are they who suffer the ^awrath of God on earth.

105 These are they who suffer the ^avengeance of eternal fire.

106 These are they who are cast down to ^ahell and ^bsuffer the wrath of ^cAlmighty God, until the ^dfulness of times, when Christ shall have ^esubdued all enemies under his ^ffeet, and shall have ^gperfected his work;

107 When he shall ^adeliver up the ^bkingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have ^covercome and have ^dtrodden the ^ewine-press ^falone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.

108 Then shall he be ^acrowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the ^bthrone of his power to reign forever and ever.

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as ^ainnumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall ^aconfess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their ^aworks, and every man shall receive according to his own ^bworks, his own ^cdominion, in the ^dmansions which are prepared;

This is before they receive Telestial bodies, so it indicates that this is Spirit Prison, but this is not a NICE prison, this is one where they are in hell and suffering. 

In that sense, we could not be seen as universalist. 

HOWEVER, we ALSO believe that, except for the Sons of Perdition, all will be saved into a Kingdom of Heaven.

Furthermore, we ALSO believe in a physical resurrection which saves ALL MEN from Death. 

These are views NOT shared by most other Christian religions (though, most of them ALSO only believe to the extent of the Spirit world where the good go to Paradise and the Wicked to Hell, not going into a further restoration of glory or physical redemption).  Many would not believe that men can be redeemed from the punishments or sufferings of Hell after they have passed on to the afterlife..

We do.  This is a STARK difference in many ways between how we view the afterlife and others view the afterlife. 

There are many other differences between how we believe and others believe as well (which I don't think I'll list all in this post), but once we get past the temporal judgement of the Spirit World, the divergence of beliefs between our religion and others begins to be quite wide.

 

[Fether]

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

In that sense, we could not be seen as universalist. 

HOWEVER, we ALSO believe that, except for the Sons of Perdition, all will be saved into a Kingdom of Heaven.

Because our understanding of Hell is that it is temporary is what lead me to peg us with the universalist tag. Everyone will be in some joyous form of paradise by the end of it all.

[The Folk Prophet]

I am always concerned, and bit surprised, when people write of the Telestial kingdom as no big deal, and try and excuse away this or that based on the idea that all will be "glory". It's like they have no concept of the relative nature of glory and punishment.

Punishment is always relative. Glory is always relative. And they are relative to each other.

There is only one state of perfect glory. All else is, relatively, punishment. There is only one state of perfect punishment. All else is, relatively, glory.

This seems like a perfectly obvious idea to me, but apparently it isn't to all.

It's like saying to two guys: to one, "For the next 50 years you get $100 because of your choices." and to the other, "For the next 50 years you get a billion dollars because of your choices," and then ignoring the reality that the guy who got $100 can't buy food for more than a few days, can't pay rent, can't buy a TV, can't get a car, etc., etc. but then saying, "it's not a punishment....you received money didn't you? It's a glory and an honor to have received this free $100. You couldn't abide a billion. It wasn't 'right' for you. And you chose the $100 by your own actions, so obviously you should be contented and happy with what you received."

Of course it is a reward and a glory. Of course it wasn't right for him. Of course he chose it. But he still can't do the things the guy getting the billion can, obviously. And relatively, it's obviously punishment too.

And people seem to think that because the guy made choices that led him to only get the $100 that he'll, therefore, be perfectly satisfied, contented, and honored to have made those choices and received the glory he did. At some level, sure...he'll make do with what he has. He has to. He'll learn a level of contentment with his lot. We all do with our lots to some degree. But to treat it like there will be no discontentment with our failure, we won't feel punished by it, and that we won't eternally regret what we chose just sort of baffles me.

[Grunt]

4 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I am always concerned, and bit surprised, when people write of the Telestial kingdom as no big deal, and try and excuse away this or that based on the idea that all will be "glory". It's like they have no concept of the relative nature of glory and punishment.

Punishment is always relative. Glory is always relative. And they are relative to each other.

There is only one state of perfect glory. All else is, relatively, punishment. There is only one state of perfect punishment. All else is, relatively, glory.

This seems like a perfectly obvious idea to me, but apparently it isn't to all.

It's like saying to two guys: to one, "For the next 50 years you get $100 because of your choices." and to the other, "For the next 50 years you get a billion dollars because of your choices," and then ignoring the reality that the guy who got $100 can't buy food for more than a few days, can't pay rent, can't buy a TV, can't get a car, etc., etc. but then saying, "it's not a punishment....you received money didn't you? It's a glory and an honor to have received this free $100. You couldn't abide a billion. It wasn't 'right' for you. And you chose the $100 by your own actions, so obviously you should be contented and happy with what you received."

Of course it is a reward and a glory. Of course it wasn't right for him. Of course he chose it. But he still can't do the things the guy getting the billion can, obviously. And relatively, it's obviously punishment too.

And people seem to think that because the guy made choices that led him to only get the $100 that he'll, therefore, be perfectly satisfied, contented, and honored to have made those choices and received the glory he did. At some level, sure...he'll make do with what he has. He has to. He'll learn a level of contentment with his lot. We all do with our lots to some degree. But to treat it like there will be no discontentment with our failure, we won't feel punished by it, and that we won't eternally regret what we chose just sort of baffles me.

Broseph, you just answered a few of my questions and changed my perspective on a few things that had been bugging me.  Thank you.

[Anddenex]

On 2/5/2022 at 10:41 PM, Fether said:

I will also concede that my thoughts on the sons of perdition being small in number is an opinion. I’ll add more context to why I think this:

In the MTC on my mission when Elder Holland he spoke, he addressed this concept with these words (paraphrased as I don't remember his "exact" terminology), "I understand some of you are concerned here in the MTC if you could qualify as a son/daughter of perdition. To put your minds at ease there is probably only one in this room who could qualify."

To become a son of perdition, seems pretty small, and even Judas who betrayed Jesus Christ is not solidified that he became like Cain as there are different quotes from prophets that highlight a different meaning.

[NeuroTypical]

5 hours ago, Grunt said:

Broseph, 

I feel like the entire two-plus decades of my online LDS-related discussion, has all been to prepare me to receive this single glorious word.

[JohnsonJones]

17 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I am always concerned, and bit surprised, when people write of the Telestial kingdom as no big deal, and try and excuse away this or that based on the idea that all will be "glory". It's like they have no concept of the relative nature of glory and punishment.

Punishment is always relative. Glory is always relative. And they are relative to each other.

There is only one state of perfect glory. All else is, relatively, punishment. There is only one state of perfect punishment. All else is, relatively, glory.

This seems like a perfectly obvious idea to me, but apparently it isn't to all.

It's like saying to two guys: to one, "For the next 50 years you get $100 because of your choices." and to the other, "For the next 50 years you get a billion dollars because of your choices," and then ignoring the reality that the guy who got $100 can't buy food for more than a few days, can't pay rent, can't buy a TV, can't get a car, etc., etc. but then saying, "it's not a punishment....you received money didn't you? It's a glory and an honor to have received this free $100. You couldn't abide a billion. It wasn't 'right' for you. And you chose the $100 by your own actions, so obviously you should be contented and happy with what you received."

Of course it is a reward and a glory. Of course it wasn't right for him. Of course he chose it. But he still can't do the things the guy getting the billion can, obviously. And relatively, it's obviously punishment too.

And people seem to think that because the guy made choices that led him to only get the $100 that he'll, therefore, be perfectly satisfied, contented, and honored to have made those choices and received the glory he did. At some level, sure...he'll make do with what he has. He has to. He'll learn a level of contentment with his lot. We all do with our lots to some degree. But to treat it like there will be no discontentment with our failure, we won't feel punished by it, and that we won't eternally regret what we chose just sort of baffles me.

 

I don't see this life as a Punishment (a lesser version of what we have in the Telestial Kingdom).

In addition, if someone was being burned alive for eternity with nothing to quench their thirst or cool them, getting out of constant agony is so much of a relief it would be something to be eternally grateful for.   Going from Hell or Spirit Prison to a place that, even compared to this world, is far beyond what we can imagine...I think may be seen more of a reward than a punishment.

We also assume that everyone WANTS the responsibilities that will come with higher Kingdoms.  With more or higher rewards come a higher sense of responsibility (1 Talent vs. 5 talents vs 10 talents and being put as the steward of the house). 

I feel what we receive is, in many instances, MORE OUR OWN CHOICES of what we are willing to abide by and do.  There are rules to each place and things we each must do.  There will probably be many that said in the pre-existence when looking at the things they would have to do and abide by in the Celestial Kingdom...that said they would be MORE than happy not to have to do that and would settle for a place with lesser rules and responsibilities.  There will be those that arrive in the afterlife and feel that they would rather want something other than the Celestial glory as well, or even the Terrestrial in some cases. 

We have a Father who is greater than us all.  Most of us love our children (I suppose there are those that do not as well, but I love my children).  Would any of us punish them for eternity by choice?  Would we purposefully decide to punish them and consider it a punishment rather than try to reward them if we could?

Instead, there are things which they are in by their own choices.  We can try to help them out but there is only so much we can do when they are adults.  They have their own free agency.  Now, IF we believe in the 10 commandments, and IF we actually practice as we are taught, there will be no jealousy, no coveting what others have.  We will not be dissatisfied because someone else has more stuff or a bigger house than we do.  We will not covet what they have (though, this doesn't happen in our world most of the time, it seems everyone always wants to try to keep up with the Joneses).

I think if someone feels they will covet other stuff, they would see the kingdoms as a punishment, but I think for those who are children of our Father, they will have made choices with which they are happy to receive the rewards of, and be content with the reward they receive.  There is no jealousy in the afterlife, and thus no coveting of what others have gotten.  I see it more as the  happiness you have for your brother or relative who has succeeded beyond your greatest expectations instead, that you will be happy for those who may have rewards greater than yours, and be happy with what you have gotten as well.

[The Folk Prophet]

10 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I don't see this life as a Punishment

Well, this life has been specifically designated as a test, the reward and punishment following said test.

10 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Going from Hell or Spirit Prison to a place that, even compared to this world, is far beyond what we can imagine...I think may be seen more of a reward than a punishment.

You seem to have missed the point I made that it's relative, and that everything but the complete salvation or complete damnation will be both reward and punishment. Clearly, relatively, the Telestial Kingdom will be a reward comparted to Hell and/or Perdition. Obviously. It will also, and this is my point, be a punishment compared to Celestial glory. When one casts off the relative nature of various states, and addresses only one side of the equation, they're missing some important ideas I think.

And whereas we, if not Exalted, won't have the experience of being Celestial beings to compare a lesser state too...we all did live with our Father in Heaven, and not returning to be with Him again will be something I think we'll be very, very aware of.

10 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

We also assume that everyone WANTS the responsibilities that will come with higher Kingdoms.  With more or higher rewards come a higher sense of responsibility (1 Talent vs. 5 talents vs 10 talents and being put as the steward of the house). 

We don't understand the eternities, and for us to apply our mortal ideas to them is, I believe, not particularly useful. Anyone presuming they or others don't want what they cannot even begin to fathom is foolishness. We need to trust God. We can't comprehend His glory. What we DO know and can comprehend is that it is our job, by commandment, to declare repentance and teach faith in and obedience to Christ. We shouldn't presume anyone isn't fit, in any regard, for that. That is left to God.

10 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

We have a Father who is greater than us all.  Most of us love our children (I suppose there are those that do not as well, but I love my children).  Would any of us punish them for eternity by choice?  Would we purposefully decide to punish them and consider it a punishment rather than try to reward them if we could?

As I was reading through your post I thought of children too. I was mindful of the times my daughter has rejected some yummy food or another we made for her because she, in her silly-minded childness, decided for whatever reason it was going to be gross, without really understanding or trying it (And I'm talking sweets and dessert type things I know she'd like if she'd give it a shot). That's what I thought of when you suggest many would say, "No thanks, that's not for me" of eternal life.  Children rejecting delicious wonderful things with a complete lack of understanding.

It's a pretty good analogy actually. If I offered my 2-year-old a billion dollars or a toy truck he'd take the toy truck any day of the week. God asks us to trust him with faith and humility, not with actual knowledge and understanding of what we're getting or not in the eternities. I believe our relative comprehension of things is less compared to God than my 2-year-old's is to me.

So I don't buy the whole self-judge thing so much. God is our judge for a reason. Of course we'll be part of the judgement. But the philosophy that we'll just chose where we want to go on judgement day falls flat. Because we're silly children who are incapable.

What's being "proven" is not our ability to choose this reward or that. It's our ability to humble ourselves, obey, and repent. If we were held to account for our ability to choose the correct reward for ourselves we would almost certainly get it wrong.

10 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Now, IF we believe in the 10 commandments, and IF we actually practice as we are taught, there will be no jealousy, no coveting what others have.  We will not be dissatisfied because someone else has more stuff or a bigger house than we do.  We will not covet what they have (though, this doesn't happen in our world most of the time, it seems everyone always wants to try to keep up with the Joneses).

Of course those who will receive Telestial glory are, indeed, the covetous.

I just find the logic funny. All those who are the greedy, selfish, prideful, power-hungry, money mad, whore-mongers are the ones who will say, "No thanks, that's not for me" to unlimited power and glory?

10 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

There is no jealousy in the afterlife,

I'm not sure we know this. But jealousy and regret are not synonyms. I'm suggesting the latter. Those in lesser glories need not be jealous of those in higher to regret their choices.