Russia-Ukraine conflict


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Back on the topic of the thread:

Ukraine managed to sink Russia's bestest coolest flagship the Moskva.  It probably carried at least some nuclear armaments of some kind (although not likely there specifically for use in Ukraine.)  But with it now resting over 4000 feet under the water, only the FSB archives will know for sure.

Here is a photoshopped image of the Moskva sinking.  Pity the tractor couldn't salvage it like so many Russian tanks.

Russian warship and cruiser Moskva sinking in Black Sea by Ukraine

I'm not out to rejoice in war, but lol.  I can be happy most of the crew abandoned ship and was rescued before it sank.  Good for you, Ukraine!

Edited by NeuroTypical
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11 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Back on the topic of the thread:

Ukraine managed to sink Russia's bestest coolest flagship the Moskva.  It probably carried at least some nuclear armaments of some kind (although not likely there specifically for use in Ukraine.)  But with it now resting over 4000 feet under the water, only the FSB archives will know for sure.

Here is a photoshopped image of the Moskva sinking.  Pity the tractor couldn't salvage it like so many Russian tanks.

Russian warship and cruiser Moskva sinking in Black Sea by Ukraine

I'm not out to rejoice in war, but lol.  I can be happy most of the crew abandoned ship and was rescued before it sank.  Good for you, Ukraine!

Ukraine is now saying that virtually the entire crew was killed.

I’ve always felt that sailors tend to die the most gruesome deaths—pretty much any method of death available to other soldiers and airmen is an occupational risk of being in a navy; plus drowning, suffocation, physical entrapment in a confined space, and exposure/starvation/thirst/shark attack after surviving the sinking of your ship.  And the deaths can often take hours or days with no hope of relief (we know that at Pearl Harbor, it took some trapped sailors on the West Virginia nearly three weeks to die).

My loathing of Russians grows daily as I hear more about mass murders of civilians and women encouraging their soldier husbands to commit rape—but still, I wouldn’t wish this on anyone.  :( 

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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On 4/13/2022 at 4:14 PM, Traveler said:

3. Ukraine has several rare earth elements and is currently the second largest producer in the world of those elements - which includes lithium and nickel[1] which is necessary for what we call green energy[2].  If we are going to make a serious effort to establish a green new deal - we will need these elements and it is not a good idea to just let Russia and China control the world's access to these minerals.

[1]To be clear, neither lithium nor nickel are rare earth elements.

]2]So-called green energy is not dependent on rare earth elements such as those consumed by windmills and solar cells, nor on enormous battery banks or other such massive power-leveling structures. Those who insist they are necessary are either liars or dupes of liars. In either case, your opinion ought not to be informed by their hyperbolic rants. Rather, they should be informed by my hyperbolic rants.

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21 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Ukraine is now saying that virtually the entire crew was killed.

It looks like Russia state media released a video showing a group of ~80 survivors of the Moskva.  (Out of a compliment of >300, I think.)
 

I get most of my tactical info from this guy on TikTok: https://vm.tiktok.com/TTPdCDwFgb/

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16 hours ago, Vort said:

[1]To be clear, neither lithium nor nickel are rare earth elements.

]2]So-called green energy is not dependent on rare earth elements such as those consumed by windmills and solar cells, nor on enormous battery banks or other such massive power-leveling structures. Those who insist they are necessary are either liars or dupes of liars. In either case, your opinion ought not to be informed by their hyperbolic rants. Rather, they should be informed by my hyperbolic rants.

Lithium is not rare but it is listed (perhaps for political reasons) as a rare earth element in official documents. 

I would be greatly interested in the current electric car tech you are touting as non hyperbolic lies that does not use lithium.  Examples would be more helpful than innuendo.

 

The Traveler

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Here are the 17 Rare-Earth Elements:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare-earth_element

Scandium
Yttrium
Lanthanum
Cerium
Praseodymium
Neodymium
Promethium
Samarium
Europium
Gadolinium
Terbium
Dysprosium
Holmium
Erbium
Thulium
Ytterbium
Lutetium

Which of these are used in Electric cars?

Edited by Carborendum
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12 hours ago, Traveler said:

I would be greatly interested in the current electric car tech you are touting as non hyperbolic lies that does not use lithium.

Huh? I was touting nothing about electric cars. Perhaps you misread me?

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20 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Here are the 17 Rare-Earth Elements:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare-earth_element

Scandium
Yttrium
Lanthanum
Cerium
Praseodymium
Neodymium
Promethium
Samarium
Europium
Gadolinium
Terbium
Dysprosium
Holmium
Erbium
Thulium
Ytterbium
Lutetium

Which of these are used in Electric cars?

Let me help this whole process so we all can understand what politization does to the truth and understanding of things.

Here is a link:  https://www.cruz.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Bills/2020.05.11 - ORE Act .pdf

Please note on the official senate web site that the name of the bill is the "RARE" earth act of 2200.  We can argue for days about the intelligence of our elected officials.  However there is a bit of clarity shown in the bill itself as it list the "Critical" elements and metals.  In short this would all be better understood as "Critical" rather than "Rare".  For those interested the critical elements in the rare earth bill are as follows:

Quote

18 ‘‘(B) CRITICAL MINERALS AND METALS.—

19 For purposes of this paragraph, the term ‘crit-

20 ical minerals and metals’ means cerium, cobalt,

21 dysprosium, erbium, europium, gadolinium,

22 graphite, holmium, lanthanum, lithium, lute-

23 tium, manganese, neodymium, praseodymium,

24 promethium, samarium, scandium, terbium,

25 thulium, ytterbium, and yttrium.’’.

All this was initiated with Trump that thought we ought to be smarter about 35 what he called "Essential" elements  --- Here is a link if anyone wants to read it:

https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/presidential-actions/executive-order-addressing-threat-domestic-supply-chain-reliance-critical-minerals-foreign-adversaries/

Readers may find the following from the order interesting: "Pursuant to my order, the Secretary of the Interior conducted a review with the assistance of other executive departments and agencies (agencies) that identified 35 minerals that (1) are “essential to the economic and national security of the United States,” (2) have supply chains that are “vulnerable to disruption,” and (3) serve “an essential function in the manufacturing of a product, the absence of which would have significant consequences for our economy or our national security

The point I would like to make is that if we want to survive as a nation (economically and perhaps even morally) we as a people need to change our attitudes about how we care for and utilize our natural recourses.  Not just within our borders but within our global society.  As an example, we have the recourses within our borders to intelligently and environmentally safely supply all the lithium we need as a nation.  And yet one of our primary suppliers is from Africa that utilizes child slave labor to mine lithium with their bare hands.

I know that there are a lot of politically charged individuals in our society that have found safe harbor within the Green New Deal and extreme environmentalism that is even claimed to be racists.  Though lithium is not technically a rare earth element it is essential - as are several other essential elements.  These elements are not just necessary for so called "Greenness" they are also essential for pharmaceuticals.

What I would make clear is that for all the talk and arguments about making this country great (weather again or for the very first time) or building back better - We, as a society and nation, are doing a very poor job of actually doing it.  Obviously the Democrats and the liberal media outlets are so obviously corrupt anyone would have to be (and I must be careful here not to break forum rules) - shall I say - not paying attention.  For those that think there is political salvation in the Republican party - shall I say I am not impressed with your choice.

The problem is that we are headed the wrong direction - not just with very stupid political ideas but even more so with a most divided means with dealing with life and getting along.  I would like to suggest some ideas but I have found that there are a great many individuals (some are decedents of mine) that are angry and thinking that humans are ruining the planet and we have less than a decade to fix it - but the fix will economically end the middle class and reduces our society to what is currently considered poverty.   Especially in transportation - not just of people but more so in goods - which includes foods.

 

The Traveler 

Edited by Traveler
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On 4/15/2022 at 7:59 PM, NeuroTypical said:

Back on the topic of the thread:

Ukraine managed to sink Russia's bestest coolest flagship the Moskva.  It probably carried at least some nuclear armaments of some kind (although not likely there specifically for use in Ukraine.)  But with it now resting over 4000 feet under the water, only the FSB archives will know for sure.

Here is a photoshopped image of the Moskva sinking.  Pity the tractor couldn't salvage it like so many Russian tanks.

Russian warship and cruiser Moskva sinking in Black Sea by Ukraine

I'm not out to rejoice in war, but lol.  I can be happy most of the crew abandoned ship and was rescued before it sank.  Good for you, Ukraine!

Is this a real and un-photoshopped??? what is that tractor doing????

 

The Traveler

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1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Let me help this whole process so we all can understand what politization does to the truth and understanding of things.

Here is a link:  https://www.cruz.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Bills/2020.05.11 - ORE Act .pdf

Please note on the official senate web site that the name of the bill is the "RARE" earth act of 2200.  We can argue for days about the intelligence of our elected officials.  However there is a bit of clarity shown in the bill itself as it list the "Critical" elements and metals.  In short this would all be better understood as "Critical" rather than "Rare".  For those interested the critical elements in the rare earth bill are as follows...

Thanks for clarifying.  Politicians will tend to name a bill incorrectly for a variety of reasons.  At least, in this case, it was due to ignorance rather than an effort at deception.  So called green energy certainly isn't named correctly unless they're talking about the green in our figurative wallets or in our hearts.

I would point out that the bill calls it "rare earths" which ihas no common definition, and is apparently not the same as "rare earth elements" (which does have a common definition).  If I had read further into the definition section of the bill, I'm sure they probably defined it.

I would agree they are critical elements.  Halt the supply and much of modern society would degrade to pre-industrial times within a few years.

But I'd ask this question:

Forget about how things "should be done".

Forget about what people claim is being done.

Forget about purported goals or. motivations.

With those conditions, what has there ever been in written "green" legislation (whether it passed or didn't pass the applicable legislative bodies) Which requires these critical elements?

EDIT: I just went and looked for the definitions section.  Apparently, the term "Rare" is only used in the name of the bill.  In all other references to the substances in question, the term "critical" is used.

Edited by Carborendum
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3 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Which brings us to this thread from last year:

 

It's been a year, any new thoughts @Traveler?

The executive order has remained in place but it mostly sought reports from government agencies.  As far as I know there have been no changes in our imports nor from our suppliers.   Initially things were set into motion early in the Trump administration (2017).  I have been unable to determine if mineral right have been issued for any of the critical elements since the new administration took office.

In addition I have encountered additional information concerning other elements such as silver supplies.   I brought up some issues because Ukraine is a supplier of critical elements and since the war I have not been able to fine anything that is being done to insure our supplies do not become critical.  I also cannot find current information about the 33 biolabs we have in Ukraine.  I am concerned that nothing is being done and when the problem of these elements become critical that those in political power will deflect responsibility - all while making no efforts.  

I have had some discussion with @Godless concerning his and other democrat belief that republicans (especially Trump) is much less competent in such critical matters.  Perhaps he will respond in light of such glaring indication otherwise.  I did find the current house bill concerning "critical" elements - which appears to be mostly republican.  But I am not finding much information.  I have also found that internet sources seem to dry up when things are not supportive of democrats.   I have hoped those that think Democrats are more reliable than republican would be ready with evidence to support their political alignment.  At least I would like to keep such discussions open.  I know I tend to be biased and hope that others of different bias can bring things to bear that I have overlooked.

 

The Traveler

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  • 2 weeks later...
9 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Relevant criticism of the media aside, I am getting the same coverage of Ukraine as I always have - from my TikTok content creator, and there have been at least 2 articles a day in the Wall Street Journal.  

Who is that and how do we know his info is accurate?  I watched today and yesterday's vids.   Interesting if accurate.

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9 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Relevant criticism of the media aside, I am getting the same coverage of Ukraine as I always have - from my TikTok content creator, and there have been at least 2 articles a day in the Wall Street Journal.  

Unfortunately, I'm not on TikTok.  I'm also not on Twitter.  I have a Facebook page. But I'm only on it like once per quarter.

So, anything we're missing?

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5 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Unfortunately, I'm not on TikTok.  I'm also not on Twitter.  I have a Facebook page. But I'm only on it like once per quarter.

So, anything we're missing?

I'm not on tik tok either, but it let me follow the link and watch vids.

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Whelp!  We can look forward to Washington trying to turn Ukraine into another Vietnam or Afghanistan.  This, just to pass on a bunch of money to their friends in various war profiteering companies.

I don't know if it will work when our finances are teetering and Ukraine isn't exactly a third world country.

At least they're not sending our troops into harm's way .. yet 

At some point, we'll see it happening.  And by that time, it won't matter which party is in power.  We'll find a way to justify it.  At least there is a chance that the justification could be real.

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4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Whelp!  We can look forward to Washington trying to turn Ukraine into another Vietnam or Afghanistan.  This, just to pass on a bunch of money to their friends in various war profiteering companies.

I don't know if it will work when our finances are teetering and Ukraine isn't exactly a third world country.

At least they're not sending our troops into harm's way .. yet 

At some point, we'll see it happening.  And by that time, it won't matter which party is in power.  We'll find a way to justify it.  At least there is a chance that the justification could be real.

We liberated the concentration camps in WW2, got high on the “Yankee savior” rush, and have spent the last 80 years roaming all over the world jonesing for our next fix—the next oppressed people to whom we could bring Truth, Justice, and the American Way.

It’s not the worst thing in the world to be addicted to, to be honest—so long as a) you really think through the second-order effects, b) you’re willing to pay the price, and c) you don’t hurt a lot of innocent people in the process.  But American politicians aren’t very good at a), our citizens aren’t very good at b), and our military (and frankly, every military) isn’t very good at c).
 

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

We liberated the concentration camps in WW2, got high on the “Yankee savior” rush, and have spent the last 80 years roaming all over the world jonesing for our next fix—the next oppressed people to whom we could bring Truth, Justice, and the American Way.

It’s not the worst thing in the world to be addicted to, to be honest—so long as a) you really think through the second-order effects, b) you’re willing to pay the price, and c) you don’t hurt a lot of innocent people in the process.  But American politicians aren’t very good at a), our citizens aren’t very good at b), and our military (and frankly, every military) isn’t very good at c).
 

As far as c) I was thinking that we would exacerbate the hostilities causing even more death than would have occurred had we stayed out of it.  All in the name of profits rather than spreading our way of life.

There was, of course, a commentator that theorized that the Dems' desire to sjpport Ukraine is only about punishing Russia because they still believe that Trump was simply a Russian Pawn.

I think it is ridiculous to believe that Trump could keep his mouth shut about something like that.  He's got diarrhea of the mouth.

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On 4/28/2022 at 9:01 PM, Carborendum said:

Has anyone noticed that since the Musk/Twitter news, we have hardly heard anything about the war on conservative sites.  and liberal sites have decreased their coverage of the war?

Like I said.  It was just a distraction.

I'm still getting a lot of news on Ukraine daily.  I suppose it depends on what your news sources are.

Currently, it appears that Russia is in control of most of the border areas between The Eastern border and Crimea at this point, with them also holding part of the Eastern portion of Moldova. 

They have most of the area they were originally expected to make a grab for, though the cities are still holding out for the most part.  Some seem very close to falling.  The Russians have last said several things.

1.  They do not feel NATO is taking their nuclear threats very seriously.

2.  They performed Nuclear missile drills recently in preparation

3.  They will target vehicles from NATO and others delivering weapons to the Ukraine

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  • 2 weeks later...

Update on CARE:

When I donated to the cause, I thought it was odd that nothing in the documentation said anything about it being earmarked for Ukraine or paying for ammo.  Nothing.

The other day, I got a mailing from CARE that said that because of my donation, environmental causes around the world have benefited.  Now, I'm on a mailing list for other environmental causes.

Wonderful.

So, I guess there really is no way to help the people of Ukraine in any meaningful way.

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  • 2 months later...

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