Women’s Ivy League Swimming?

[Carborendum]

7 hours ago, MrShorty said:

The claims I see coming from trans affirming sources and governing bodies is that, after sufficient transitioning treatments, trans-women compete in many sports at the same level as cis-women. 

From 2019 ( TM = women Transgenered as Men; TW = men Transgendered as Women)

Quote

One year of gender-affirming treatment resulted in robust increases in muscle mass and strength in TM, but modest changes in TW. These findings add new knowledge on the magnitude of changes in muscle function, size, and composition with cross-hormone therapy, which could be relevant when evaluating the transgender eligibility rules for athletic competitions.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31794605/

An interview about the study, for a more laymen's version.

Quote

What did you find out?

In line with what we expected, the transgender men increased muscle mass and strength significantly after 12 months of testosterone therapy. Perhaps more surprising was that the transgender women did not lose strength at all despite inhibited testosterone production. In addition, the effect on muscle mass of the transgender women was less pronounced than many people previously thought, losing only 5% of the muscle volume over the thigh muscles.

https://news.ki.se/new-study-on-changes-in-muscle-mass-and-strength-after-gender-affirming-treatment-may-have-an

[Carborendum]

10 hours ago, scottyg said:

My times in high school would have been fast enough to qualify. Based on those times between the 100, 200, and 400 meters I would have placed in the bottom half of the various races. No medal for me...but I would still be running among the worlds best.

I know the feeling.

I believe I placed once in my entire high school athletic career.  But I could beat any girl on the field in any event except for the high hurdles.  I was much shorter than average, so the taller girls had a significant advantage in that one event.

[scottyg]

59 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I know the feeling.

I believe I placed once in my entire high school athletic career.  But I could beat any girl on the field in any event except for the high hurdles.  I was much shorter than average, so the taller girls had a significant advantage in that one event.

Yup. Although I wouldn't have placed at the olympics, if in High School I had said "I identify as a female", and ran against the girls, I would have been a state champion in every, single, race, and every, jumping, event. Maybe even some of the throwing events if I had learned good technique.

[MrShorty]

@Carborendum An interesting article, but only one of many available (even just looking at the "related articles" section at the bottom of the pubmed link some of which seem to be neutral and others that suggest it is possible to integrate transwomen into at least some sports).

As I said, I am not one qualified or otherwise important in reviewing the literature (in other words, it does no good to convince me). I note that Laurel Hubbard (43 yo transwoman competing weightlifting at the Tokyo Olympics) failed all of her lifts. Did she have an unfair advantage and fail to take advantage of it, or was the competition fair? I don't know.

In the end, I don't think a blanket "no, transwomen should not compete alongside ciswomen" is the right answer. I also don't think a blanket, "yes, transwomen should be allowed to compete alongside ciswomen" is the right answer. Somewhere in that very broad and gray middle trying to balance inclusion and competitive fairness is where the right answer lies.

[Carborendum]

19 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

1) looking at the "related articles" section at the bottom of the pubmed link some of which seem to be neutral

2) and others that suggest it is possible to integrate transwomen into at least some sports).

1) Which ones were neutral?  And why would "neutral" support your position? I looked at each link.  None of them seemed to counter what the primary link said.  I'm wondering what I missed.  You said you found many other articles claiming otherwise. I'd be interested in reading them.  Can you provide links?

The article I linked to specifically said:

Quote

the magnitude of change in muscle mass and strength with gender-affirming treatment remains insufficiently explored.

That would seem to indicate that not a lot of study has been done on this.  And they are also being modest enough to admit that their one study also does not make this "settled science."  But what studies have you seen?  For lack of other studies, we can't really ignore this one, can we?

2) "Some".  Well, that is always the question, isn't it.  There are MANY areas of ability where men and women are truly on a level playing field.  And some things they have different advantages and disadvantages which would help them become better in a particular field.  But there are certainly some areas where it simply isn't a contest.  And if you want to do this part-way, that will be a very difficult road to go down.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Carborendum

[Grunt]

38 minutes ago, MrShorty said:Somewhere in that very broad and gray middle trying to balance inclusion and competitive fairness is where the right answer lies.

That's just it, though.  There is no "broad and gray middle".   There are men and there are women.  While my heart aches for those struggling, the prophets have spoken very clearly on this topic.  

[NeuroTypical]

19 minutes ago, Grunt said:

There are men and there are women.  While my heart aches for those struggling, the prophets have spoken very clearly on this topic.  

So, Grunt, did God not make people who are born with ambiguous genitalia?  Congenital adrenal hyperplasia?  Mixed gonadal dysgenesis?  Kids born with male external structures and female internal structures?  If God didn't make 'em, who did?

There are exceptions.  And again, our Lord and Savior has things to say about the one and the ninety-and-nine.  People exist, where righteous humans doing their best science, simply can't tell whether it's a boy or a girl.   There are men, there are women, and there are a tiny small percentage of "we don't know enough to judge righteously".  

(And yes, again, I'd say for every true person that falls into this category, there are hundreds or thousands of ppl who have been suckered by blowing winds of cultural change, to experiment with themselves until they're unable to distinguish truth from reality.)

[Grunt]

34 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

So, Grunt, did God not make people who are born with ambiguous genitalia?  Congenital adrenal hyperplasia?  Mixed gonadal dysgenesis?  Kids born with male external structures and female internal structures?  If God didn't make 'em, who did?

There are exceptions.  And again, our Lord and Savior has things to say about the one and the ninety-and-nine.  People exist, where righteous humans doing their best science, simply can't tell whether it's a boy or a girl.   There are men, there are women, and there are a tiny small percentage of "we don't know enough to judge righteously".  

(And yes, again, I'd say for every true person that falls into this category, there are hundreds or thousands of ppl who have been suckered by blowing winds of cultural change, to experiment with themselves until they're unable to distinguish truth from reality.)

You're arguing a point through the outliers.   People are born with clubbed feet cleft palates, too. 
 

[NeuroTypical]

25 minutes ago, Grunt said:

You're arguing a point through the outliers.   People are born with clubbed feet cleft palates, too. 

Perhaps I'm missing your point.  When you said "There are men and there are women", did you mean to imply that there are zero outliers?  Maybe it's just me, but that was the implication I got.  

So do outliers, true transgender folk who have a legitimate good reason to move from one gender to another, exist?  Or don't they?

[LDSGator]

Before all of us middle aged (or elderly, in @Just_A_Guy‘s case. Given our recent conversations @mirkwood, you too), out of shape guys start talking about how we could dominate any female athlete out there, we should volunteer to prove our ability against Rhonda Rousey. 
 

😉

Edited March 1, 2022 by LDSGator

[NeuroTypical]

Hey, I returned to the gym last year.  And while I started out lifting the lightest weights in the room, just last week, I noticed that a woman and I were doing the same exercises, and my weights were 5 lbs heavier!   So there!

(The fact that I'm reasonably certain she could have kicked my butt if she wanted, is beside the point.)

Edited March 1, 2022 by NeuroTypical

[LDSGator]

19 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Hey, I returned to the gym last year.  And while I started out lifting the lightest weights in the room, just last week, I noticed that a woman and I were doing the same exercises, and my weights were 5 lbs heavier!   So there!

I see this all the time in martial arts. Some washed up high school jock thinks he can come in and dominate every girl in the class because like “I just go red and black out bro.” Then, he gets absolutely destroyed because her technical ability is vastly beyond his. This happens all the time. Everyone thinks they are tough until they get punched/kicked in the face by someone. 
 

To be fair, it’s not just girls who can “surprise” you. Older and smaller athletes have also ran circles against guys off the street who act like they could take on Olympic athletes. Amazingly, those guys rarely show up for another class. Pride is a funny thing. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by LDSGator

[Grunt]

46 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Perhaps I'm missing your point.  When you said "There are men and there are women", did you mean to imply that there are zero outliers?  Maybe it's just me, but that was the implication I got.  

So do outliers, true transgender folk who have a legitimate good reason to move from one gender to another, exist?  Or don't they?

Gender is biological sex at birth.   Are you referring to babies born with multiple sex organs?   If so, yes they exist and are medically treated accordingly.   

[Grunt]

37 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Hey, I returned to the gym last year.  And while I started out lifting the lightest weights in the room, just last week, I noticed that a woman and I were doing the same exercises, and my weights were 5 lbs heavier!   So there!

(The fact that I'm reasonably certain she could have kicked my butt if she wanted, is beside the point.)

Sure. Me too, and I'm in the gym every day.  However, a male the same age, health, shape, and training would likely mop the floor with her. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Grunt

[Just_A_Guy]

55 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Before all of us middle aged (or elderly, in @Just_A_Guy‘s case. Given our recent conversations @mirkwood, you too), out of shape guys start talking about how we could dominate any female athlete out there, we should volunteer to prove our ability against Rhonda Rousey. 
 

😉

Yeah, for my part I’ve tried to acknowledge my own unmanly physical frailties and keep the discussion in terms of general trends.  

[LDSGator]

12 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Yeah, for my part I’ve tried to acknowledge my own unmanly physical frailties and keep the discussion in terms of general trends.  

Understand my friend, just making a larger point. And no, it’s not “unmanly*” to not be in shape or be a gym rat. I say that as someone who walks/runs/jogs 5 miles a day and goes to TKD classes several times a week. 
 

In fact, I would argue that’s “unmanly” to live at the gym all the time and to have never touched a book or to not have any hobbies that don’t require athleticism. 

*and, a “real man” wouldn’t let someone else’s opinion of masculinity define him either. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by LDSGator

[mirkwood]

1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

Before all of us middle aged (or elderly, in @Just_A_Guy‘s case. Given our recent conversations @mirkwood, you too), out of shape guys start talking about how we could dominate any female athlete out there, we should volunteer to prove our ability against Rhonda Rousey. 
 

😉

Sure I'll prove my abilities against Rhonda. 

 

[MrShorty]

2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

So, Grunt, did God not make people who are born with ambiguous genitalia?  Congenital adrenal hyperplasia?  Mixed gonadal dysgenesis?  Kids born with male external structures and female internal structures?  If God didn't make 'em, who did?

I think this is a very interesting point in the discussion, but I think we need to be careful not to completely conflate "intersex" and "transgender". I expect there is overlap and other ways that the two ideas intersect, but most people in society consider them separate categories.

 

19 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Gender is biological sex at birth.

This is the Church's definition, sure. It's not the definition being used by sports' governing bodies as they discuss this issue. Certainly biological sex at birth (or maybe, more important, at/during puberty) is important in their discussions, but it is not how they define gender, nor is it the only consideration in their deliberations.

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

But what studies have you seen?...Can you provide links?

As I've already said, I don't have access to the literature on this. I am assuming that governing bodies like USA Swimming have fuller access to the literature and that, what they have seen, allowed them to say that transwomen who meet a certain criteria are allowed to compete with ciswomen. I expect they were/are fully aware of the study you mentioned along with many others, and, when reducing it all down, they feel like transwomen can compete fairly against ciswomen under the right circumstances. From a statement a month or so ago: “USA Swimming firmly believes in inclusivity and the opportunity for all athletes to experience the sport of swimming in a manner that is consistent with their gender identity and expression. We also strongly believe in competitive equity, and, like many, are doing our best to learn and educate ourselves on the appropriate balance in this space." (USA Swimming statement issued Jan 2022: https://www.usaswimming.org/news/2022/01/20/usa-swimming-statement-on-transgender-athlete-policies).
 

[Grunt]

18 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

This is the Church's definition, sure. It's not the definition being used by sports' governing bodies as they discuss this issue. Certainly biological sex at birth (or maybe, more important, at/during puberty) is important in their discussions, but it is not how they define gender, nor is it the only consideration in their deliberations.

Which do you think is more accurate?   How it's defined by a fallen world, or how it's defined by Christ?

[LDSGator]

32 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

Sure I'll prove my abilities against Rhonda. 

 

:: snickers ::

What do use in Scrabble? Oh that’s right. Something LOSERS use. 
 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by LDSGator

[scottyg]

2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

So, Grunt, did God not make people who are born with ambiguous genitalia?  Congenital adrenal hyperplasia?  Mixed gonadal dysgenesis?  Kids born with male external structures and female internal structures?  If God didn't make 'em, who did?

There are exceptions.  And again, our Lord and Savior has things to say about the one and the ninety-and-nine.  People exist, where righteous humans doing their best science, simply can't tell whether it's a boy or a girl.   There are men, there are women, and there are a tiny small percentage of "we don't know enough to judge righteously".  

(And yes, again, I'd say for every true person that falls into this category, there are hundreds or thousands of ppl who have been suckered by blowing winds of cultural change, to experiment with themselves until they're unable to distinguish truth from reality.)

Maybe He intended for their bodies to be that way so that they could learn something only possible through experience. Or, perhaps God had nothing to do with it, and their bodies just didn't develop properly. Chance and randomness do exist in this world. Yes, God can control anything. But, if He did control everything, then true agency could not exist. If the body of a person did not develop properly in utero, whether it is genitalia, limbs, brain, muscles, etc..., then that would be a difficult trial indeed.

What we do know is that there are no transgender spirits. Male and Female exist, and that's it. If a person's body does not accurately reflect that while in this mortal probation, I cannot imagine how hard that would be. The number of true transgender individuals (meaning their body was born with both male and female characteristics/genetics, and their parents/doctors chose the incorrect one) is very, very, very small. I do believe the majority are just mentally ill, and they will be in for a rude awakening when their resurrected body does not display what they have been told it was for much of their life. Thankfully I do not have to judge anyone...that is up to the Lord. Only He and they truly know.

As a side note, if any church policy regarding transgender persons is applied to their detriment, I believe God will eventually make it right. Again, perhaps they (a very small number) needed to learn or experience something while here. This life is just a blip on the radar when compared to eternity.

[Carborendum]

39 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

As I've already said, I don't have access to the literature on this.

So, if you have no access to the literature, then what did you mean when you said

Quote

...but I see some literature that seems to show...

?

Quote

I am assuming that governing bodies like USA Swimming have fuller access to the literature and that

It may be true that they have access.  But the link you provided makes no mention of their position being dictated by such studies.  I've also read from common medical texts that there is reason to believe that biological males wouldn't lose any muscle or bone mass after transition.  The studies aren't required when the biochemistry is already established.

So, you can assume based on no evidence that they are making decisions based on scientific evidence of ... whatever.  And I'm going to assume based on evidence as well as established science that they are making decisions based on an effort to appease the woke crowd.

Now, I hope you're not going to take this too harshly.  I'm sure you've got a lot of issues you have to deal with in your own family.  And you want to think the best of your own loved ones.  That only makes sense.  And I really do have some empathy in that regard.  But when making a statement on a public board like this, we need to make a distinction between opinions, guesses, assumptions, and facts.

Right now, you have all of the above except for facts regarding this one issue.  Again, I'll state that the studies on the matter are limited.  But at least I pointed to one to support one side.  You have not provided any to support your side.

[Grunt]

24 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

:: snickers ::

What do use in Scrabble? Oh that’s right. Something LOSERS use. 
 

 

 

Might want to edit Jason's name   If he doesn't care I'll delete.  

[LDSGator]

10 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Might want to edit Jason's name   If he doesn't care I'll delete.  

Posted it before many times here unedited. But since it shows him losing-he’ll probably have a problem with it. 😉

Heck, I might get this tattooed on my forehead! 

Edited March 1, 2022 by LDSGator

[Grunt]

8 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Posted it before many times here unedited. But since it shows him losing-he’ll probably have a problem with it. 😉

Heck, I might get this tattooed on my forehead! 

No worries.  I'll mind my own business.   Thought it was a mistake.