Mosiah 27:13


askandanswer
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My scripture reading this morning took me to this phrase here from Mosiah 27:13

This is my church, and I will establish it; and nothing shall boverthrow it, save it is the transgression of my people.

To me, this statement seems to be saying that the church can be overthrown by the transgression of the people. How much weight does this statement from an angel add to the conclusion that the works of man - in this case their wickedness and transgressions - can indeed stop or end or thwart the work of God - in this case the establishmen and ongoing operation of His church? If it is the case that the wickedness of man can hinder the work of God, there may be some difficulties in reconciling that idea with Joseph Smith's teaching that "no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing."

Edited by askandanswer
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3 hours ago, askandanswer said:

My scripture reading this morning took me to this phrase here from Mosiah 27:13

This is my church, and I will establish it; and nothing shall boverthrow it, save it is the transgression of my people.

To me, this statement seems to be saying that the church can be overthrown by the transgression of the people. How much weight does this statement from an angel add to the conclusion that the works of man - in this case their wickedness and transgressions - can indeed stop or end or thwart the work of God - in this case the establishmen and ongoing operation of His church? If it is the case that the wickedness of man can hinder the work of God, there may be some difficulties in reconciling that idea with Joseph Smith's teaching that "no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing."

Context is key. That scripture was specific to those people at that time. It does not apply to us...because it was not about us. We are now in the last dispensation, and the work will continue to move forward until the end. Yes, our wickedness could at times slow progress, but it will not stop the church this time.

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I think (and I have nothing to back this up) that Alma the Younger was probably very like Paul, which would suggest that rather than being a libertine who hated all religion he was in fact a zealous, sensitive, and fiercely devoted believer in God who sincerely believed that the “Christians” had gotten it wrong and were putting their very souls in peril by embracing heretical concepts of the Messiah.

As I read it the thrust of this vision, like Paul’s, isn’t so much “shape up or go to hell, it’s all the same to Me”.  I read it more as “look, that God you’ve loved and tried to serve all along?  Those people you’re attacking are His peeps; and you can get on board or not, but if you’re really looking for Him, that community you’re fighting is actually where you’ll find Him.” 

In that context, I don’t know that the angel is really trying to make any eternally-binding pronouncements about the nature/fallibility of the church, in either its Nephite or latter-day incarnations.

This is also one of those sections where it’s worth remembering that the original BoM manuscript was unpunctuated.  Most of our punctuation was inserted by John Gilbert, an assistant at the Grandin printing shop, and he never joined the Church.  He generally did a good job, but technically one could still argue that the punctuation of the Book of Mormon is only semi-canonical.  In most cases that’s a sheerly pedantic point; but the angel’s words to Alma are one of those sections where you can create some intriguing variant readings by re-punctuating the sentences.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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47 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I think (and I have nothing to back this up) that Alma the Younger was probably very like Paul, which would suggest that rather than being a libertine who hated all religion he was in fact a zealous, sensitive, and fiercely devoted believer in God who sincerely believed that the “Christians” had gotten it wrong and were putting their very souls in peril by embracing heretical concepts of the Messiah.

The Book of Mormon description of the pre-repentant Alma is "a very wicked and an idolatrous man" (Mosiah 27:8). Off the top of my head, I can think of only one other Book of Mormon figure described as "very wicked", and that was Amalickiah. That's some rarified air there.

I would be careful about downplaying just how wicked Alma the younger was before his experience with the angel and subsequent repentance. Alma was not merely misguided. He was a Very Bad Man, overtly seeking to destroy the Church and its adherents. At least, that's how I read it.

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In general I agree with @scottyg that there is special promise extended to our dispensation. But I think you could also make the case that the "unhallowed hand" in the quote from Joseph Smith is not the same as the "transgression of my people." The unhallowed hand to me speaks of the external threat of those who seek to stop the work from progressing. This of course is all in vain because if there are righteous individuals willing to do the will of God then do it they will. But if those same righteous individuals, "my people," turn from Lord then that will of course stop the work to the degree to which they were engaged. And if it be a universal turning from the Lord then the Lord's church will cease. This is true even of our day but God will not allow it to happen again so he sends to earth those he knows will remain faithful. 

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On 3/19/2022 at 4:58 PM, askandanswer said:

My scripture reading this morning took me to this phrase here from Mosiah 27:13

This is my church, and I will establish it; and nothing shall boverthrow it, save it is the transgression of my people.

To me, this statement seems to be saying that the church can be overthrown by the transgression of the people. How much weight does this statement from an angel add to the conclusion that the works of man - in this case their wickedness and transgressions - can indeed stop or end or thwart the work of God - in this case the establishmen and ongoing operation of His church? If it is the case that the wickedness of man can hinder the work of God, there may be some difficulties in reconciling that idea with Joseph Smith's teaching that "no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing."

The primary doctrine in the gospel of Jesus Christ is agency; however, intertwined with the agency of man is another very important doctrine and that is the "foreknowledge" of God which takes into account the agency of his sons and daughters.

In scripture, I find how Satan seeks to overthrow God's work, but then we read how according to the foreknowledge of God no one is able to stop the work from progressing. And yet, that progression even takes almost two millennia to restore the gospel of Jesus Christ.

In this light, we are able to see then how perspective is vastly important, and why the Spirit is very important because it helps us to see things as they really are, were, and will be. As to the Lord's perspective and the Father's perspective no unhallowed hand will stop this work from progressing. They aren't seeing with natural eyes.

We only have to look at the beginning of the Church, church history, to see how the transgression of the Lord's covenanted people can hinder the work, but the work of the Lord still progresses in the direction his foreknowledge takes. The fact we are not living the law of consecration right now is evidence to the transgression of the Lord's people that stop "a" work from progressing, but not the work in totality.

Right now, as members of the Church we to some degree are hindering the work from progressing as fast as it could be. Those who have left the Church, due to transgression (all of them), to some degree hinder the progression, but they do not stop it no matter how hard they try to convince themselves they are now doing the right thing in fighting against the Lord -- kicking against the pricks.

The most important detail though, as to my knowledge (right now), we are the only generation to receive a promise that the Church will never apostatize ever again -- collectively. So, in that light, no unhallowed hand will stop the work from progressing, because there will always be a generation (even if a fourth of the covenanted members) who will continue the work forward -- always.

Edited by Anddenex
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On 3/19/2022 at 4:58 PM, askandanswer said:

My scripture reading this morning took me to this phrase here from Mosiah 27:13

This is my church, and I will establish it; and nothing shall boverthrow it, save it is the transgression of my people.

To me, this statement seems to be saying that the church can be overthrown by the transgression of the people. How much weight does this statement from an angel add to the conclusion that the works of man - in this case their wickedness and transgressions - can indeed stop or end or thwart the work of God - in this case the establishmen and ongoing operation of His church? If it is the case that the wickedness of man can hinder the work of God, there may be some difficulties in reconciling that idea with Joseph Smith's teaching that "no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing."

It is interesting to me to read this question and the forum answers.  To be honest - I think many are missing the point.  Often we think of "The Church" as a single entity.  But the church is divided into many parts with a hierarchy of units.   The smallest or most basic unit of the hierarchy is the family - many think it is the individual but I think that is a mistake and perhaps a discission all its own.  The next step in the hierarchy is the ward or branch, then the stake or district, the area and finely the general organization.  Each unit of hierarchy is presided over by priesthood authority.  I believe this order of hierarchy is what Mosiah is talking about.  Not even a family that has been established by covenant can be overthrown except by the transgressions of those within the family.  The same is true of wards (or branches), stakes (or districts) areas and the general church.  But just because a family or other unit of hierarchy may fall it does not mean that the whole general church will fall - unless all the families transgress the laws of the various covenants.

I would also like to point out the particular term "transgression" and make special note that Mosiah does not say a single thing about doctrine.  I make this point because mostly what we talk about is doctrine rather than encourage obedience to the laws of our covenants - which also include the ordinances.   Isaiah referenced this fall of "the church" to include -- Transgression of the Law, changing of the ordinances and breaking the everlasting covenant.

I have personally witnessed the collapse and fall of a unit of G-d's church in families of the covenant and also in the unit of a ward.  I have also witnessed that even one or two families being true to their covenants have saved other families, wards and an entire stake.

I believe Mosiah words are prophetic and apply to especially to us today as it did in ancient times.

 

The Traveler

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