Was Alma the Elder a prophet?

[Fether]

Mosiah 25:19

“king Mosiah granted unto Alma that he might establish churches throughout all the land of Zarahemla; and gave him power to ordain priests and teachers over every church.”

A lot of these questions assume that the Nephites church organization was similar to what we have today. Let me know if this is not so.

Questions:

- I was always under the impression that the lesser priesthood (levitical) was not had in the America’s since there were no levites. But we see in Mosiah 18 that Alma was given some sort of authority since he was baptizing people. Was Mosiah granting Alma the authority to establish a church and granting him power to ordain akin to us receiving callings and stewardship from our leaders?

- Was Alma or Mosiah the head of the church? 

- If Alma was head of the church, How is it that Mosiah granted the authority to Alma, yet he was not the head?

- If Mosiah was the head of the church, how is it that Alma the elder appointed Alma the Younger to be the head of the church at his death?

 

 

Was this a similar situation as Alma the younger relinquishing the role of chief judge to focus on his role as head of the church? 
 

Mosiah 25:20 reads:

”Now this was done because there were so many people that they could not all be governed by one teacher; neither could they all hear the word of God in one assembly;”

Was Mosiah transferring the role of head of the church to Alma because he couldn’t do everything? This is suggested in Mosiah 26:8

Edited March 22, 2022 by Fether

[Just_A_Guy]

As I recall, Don Bradley’s book on the 116 lost pages talks about how an Israelitish king had some degree of inherent priestly authority (he used this, IIRC, to extrapolate certain theories about the flight of Mosiah I to Zarahemla and the origins of Zeniff’s colony and Noah’s relationship with his priests).  You may want to check it out.

In a broader sense:  from a technical standpoint, Joseph Smith taught that *all* priesthood is Melchizedek.  If you have had the MP explicitly conferred upon you,  you implicitly have the authority to officiate in any of the ordinances of the Aaronic or Levitical priesthood (subject to the keys of your presiding officer, naturally).  I believe we are told that most OT prophets (presumably including Lehi and Nephi) were ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood.  It seems logical that the MP would then have been passed down through Nephi’s kingly line, at least so long as that line remained righteous; and following Israelite precedent, final ecclesiastical authority amongst the Nephites probably remained with the throne until Mosiah II chose to (having been quite possibly horrified by the specter of one of his four apostate sons gaining the throne and thus control over the church) grant the ecclesiastical structure complete independence from the political hierarchy.

Given Israelite/Nephite norms, Alma I’s ordination under the auspices of Noah’s kingly line may well have been deemed legitimate as fas as the Nephites were concerned; and on Alma’s arrival in Zarahemla Mosiah II seems to have either ratified that legitimacy or else conferred it anew by the authority of Mosiah’s own kingly lineage.  We have no record of Mosiah II interfering with Alma I’s ordination of Alma II to be his successor; and since Mosiah II ended the role of “king” among the Nephites first by shifting to a judgeship system and then by his own death, there was no one left with real standing to challenge Alma II’s authority to name his own ecclesiastical successor.

And just in case there were any lingering doubts as to whether the new role of “chief judge” could exercise ecclesiastical authority the way the king used to, Alma II  resolved the question by initially serving jointly as high priest and first chief judge and then appointing a successor to serve only in the latter role.  In post-Almaic society it will be crystal clear that the church is *not* merely a creation of and subordinate to the state.  If anything, the reverse is true.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Just_A_Guy

[mordorbund]

I’ve written before about the priest-king model I think of with the Nephites. With that background, here’s my take:

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A lot of these questions assume that the Nephites church organization was similar to what we have today. Let me know if this is not so.

Not so. Many ordinances were the same, but they may not have had the same offices we do. There’s no indication of a First Presidency for instance. The relationship between the church and state are definitely different.

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 I was always under the impression that the lesser priesthood (levitical) was not had in the America’s since there were no levites. But we see in Mosiah 18 that Alma was given some sort of authority since he was baptizing people. Was Mosiah granting Alma the authority to establish a church and granting him power to ordain akin to us receiving callings and stewardship from our leaders?

Alma had church authority in the land of Nephi under King Noah. When he began to do something similar in the land of Zarahemla he could only do so with permission from Mosiah.

Any church operating needed the king’s permission, and if it was the king’s church it needed his approval. I do think your comparison with the modern church has similarities. I already have authority to baptize, but may only do so when authorized by a bishop.

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 Was Alma or Mosiah the head of the church?

Mosiah 

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 If Mosiah was the head of the church, how is it that Alma the elder appointed Alma the Younger to be the head of the church at his death?

Some speculation on my part, but I wonder if this was a way of appeasing the precursor to the king men. By appointing Alma high priest (who then ordains his son as successor) Mosiah may be appeasing future kingmen by creating a role similar to the Levitical order that largely functions apart from the monarchy.

In another post I’ve added the following:

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From what I can tell, Nephite monarchies are patterned after the Melchizedek royal order rather than the Davidic. Although the Davidic line has narrow priestly authority (Solomon dedicated the temple, and I think he may have offered sacrifice there as well), and a limited participatory role in the liturgy and ordinances. By contrast, Melchizedek kingship entails the roles of priest and king (and possibly prophet - Nephite kings are not ordained by a prophet like Samuel or Nathan, but are sustained by the voice of the people). The church under both orders was a "congregation" system where members were part of 1 national church whose worshipped centered in the temple city. Zeniff's "holy envy" seemed to allow for room to recognize a more localized form of worship that involved synagogues. At least, I don't see synagogues showing up among Nephites until they begin interacting with the Lamanites.

Given the speculation that the kingmen were a violent manifestation of a debate raging from the time of the Nephite/Mulekite merger, I wonder if the possession of the brass plates gave Mosiah a leg up in the claim for kingship because he could use Pauline arguments to show that their Melchizedek order was greater than Davidic. In Zarahemla we see the "congregation" aspect at Benjamin's farewell address when Mosiah is coronated. When Alma returns he brings with him the local synagogue model. Mosiah supports this and appoints Alma high priest, but Mosiah is still the head of Alma in church matters. In the affair of the wayward sons Alma writes to Mosiah seeking counsel. It was not a legal matter, but Alma recognized Mosiah's authority over him. Mosiah does not deny his authority, but emphasizes the stewardship he has been given (like a stake president telling a bishop "you have keys; turn them")

 

Edited March 23, 2022 by mordorbund

[CV75]

23 hours ago, Fether said:

Mosiah 25:19

“king Mosiah granted unto Alma that he might establish churches throughout all the land of Zarahemla; and gave him power to ordain priests and teachers over every church.”

A lot of these questions assume that the Nephites church organization was similar to what we have today. Let me know if this is not so.

Questions:

- I was always under the impression that the lesser priesthood (levitical) was not had in the America’s since there were no levites. But we see in Mosiah 18 that Alma was given some sort of authority since he was baptizing people. Was Mosiah granting Alma the authority to establish a church and granting him power to ordain akin to us receiving callings and stewardship from our leaders?

- Was Alma or Mosiah the head of the church? 

- If Alma was head of the church, How is it that Mosiah granted the authority to Alma, yet he was not the head?

- If Mosiah was the head of the church, how is it that Alma the elder appointed Alma the Younger to be the head of the church at his death?

 

 

Was this a similar situation as Alma the younger relinquishing the role of chief judge to focus on his role as head of the church? 
 

Mosiah 25:20 reads:

”Now this was done because there were so many people that they could not all be governed by one teacher; neither could they all hear the word of God in one assembly;”

Was Mosiah transferring the role of head of the church to Alma because he couldn’t do everything? This is suggested in Mosiah 26:8

You have gotten lots of great answers here.

My understanding is that King Mosiah had the Melchizedek priesthood passed down from Lehi through Nephi. He was also a seer, which is greater than a prophet. It is interesting to me that this authority superseded that of the Mulekites (descendants of the Judah/Davidic king line), who had apostatized anyway. Likewise, Alma operated under the Melchizedek priesthood.

King - (High) Priests usually had both secular and ecclesiastical jurisdiction, but we can see that King Mosiah began to change this by transferring responsibility for the sacred records and the Church administration to others, and also by establishing a more formally democratic system (“voice of the people” takes on new meaning – see Mosiah 29) of judges upon his death. I see Alma as being authorized “President” or “presiding high priest” which included organizing the church leadership succession process. So yes, he was the “prophet” of the church and also chief judge until he split the role with someone else.

As already pointed out, this church was organized differently than ours to accommodate the requirements of the law of Moses, and then reorganized upon the visit of Christ to the Nephites.

Mosiah simply said, “I judge them not” (26: 11- 12) when referring to matters of church membership (“iniquities”), which were formerly considered “crimes”. These things overlap in our laws as well, but we also draw a line between state and religious authority as Mosiah began to do. This may have been a function of too much work for one man (although I doubt he worked alone), but also perhaps a function of now four or more diverse groups (Mulekites, Nephites, Alma’s people, Limhi’s people – and perhaps others as prosperity drew people in to this growing city-state) having to bring the best of their traditions and social mores together into and united perspective (Mosiah 29:29).

Edited March 23, 2022 by CV75

[Colirio]

On 3/22/2022 at 10:02 AM, Fether said:

Was Mosiah granting Alma the authority to establish a church and granting him power to ordain akin to us receiving callings and stewardship from our leaders?

The word “authority” doesn’t appear in this verse.
 

This verse seems to reference the king’s governance over the people, the permission (license) given to Alma to establish a church of God and permission (license) to ordain people to ecclesiastical positions. The word “power” would be a synonym for “permission” as used in this context.*** 
 

In a monarchy, the king has supreme governing power over all such things that happen among the people. You can’t start a church unless the king approves it. We can also look to the Lamanite missions served by the sons of Mosiah and how only after the kings’ conversions was the spread of the gospel really allowed. 
 

In our modern usage, Alma obtained a license from the government to start a church. He then ordained licensed ministers. 


*** Even if someone were inclined to believe the word “power” to reference priesthood, the word authority does not appear here. Clearly, Alma already had priesthood authority before they ever joined the Nephites under Mosiah: 

 

Mosiah 23:16 And now, Alma was their high priest, he being the founder of their church.

17 And it came to pass that none received authority to preach or to teach except it were by him from God. Therefore he consecrated all their priests and all their teachers; and none were consecrated except they were just men.

 

This along with the baptisms he performed shows Alma already had priesthood authority. This leads to the conclusion that the “power” given to Alma by Mosiah was not referencing a transferral of priesthood authority, but rather a governing licensure (permission). 
 

On 3/22/2022 at 10:02 AM, Fether said:

Was Alma or Mosiah the head of the church? 

Christ was the head of the church. Alma established the church as evidenced by the next chapter. 
 

Mosiah 26:17 And blessed art thou because thou hast established a church among this people; and they shall be established, and they shall be my people. 

 

On 3/22/2022 at 10:02 AM, Fether said:

If Alma was head of the church, How is it that Mosiah granted the authority to Alma, yet he was not the head?

Mosiah was the king. He granted power (permission, license) to Alma to establish a church. 
 

On 3/22/2022 at 10:02 AM, Fether said:

If Mosiah was the head of the church, 

He wasn’t. 
 

On 3/22/2022 at 10:02 AM, Fether said:

Was Mosiah transferring the role of head of the church to Alma because he couldn’t do everything?

There doesn’t seem to be an established church at that time before Alma founded one. The Nephites followed Christ and lived according to the law of Moses, but having religious people does not necessarily organize them into a church. 
 

In our latter-day church, we are used to things being organized a particular way. It hasn’t always been that way throughout the history of the world. 

[Fether]

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Edited March 23, 2022 by Fether