Question re the Law of Moses

[askandanswer]

How well did the Law of Moses fulfill its primary intention?

[person0]

Perfectly.

[Fether]

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

How well did the Law of Moses fulfill its primary intention?

What do you believe the primary intention was?

[Jane_Doe]

3 hours ago, askandanswer said:

How well did the Law of Moses fulfill its primary intention?

I'm of several thoughts here.

The first was "well people really really sucked at following it, and didn't ever seem to get really better."  Which yeah the people in Old Testament times really struggled with these basics and as a whole continued to do so over the centuries.  In fact, we today still really struggle with these same things.

But my next thought was "And God knew that this would be so, and everything works for His plan".  The Law of Moses was never meant to be the final destination, rather a preparatory law.  And it did indeed serve that purpose.  

[laronius]

The Law of Moses, as we see in Nephite society, was a very adequate stepping stone, at least for those who were spiritually in tune. It's interesting to note that during the Savior's mortal ministry he often taught in parables, or in other words, he taught in a way that those who recognized the true meaning of the law of moses would also understand what he taught concerning the higher law. 

[askandanswer]

5 hours ago, Fether said:

What do you believe the primary intention was?

To prepare the people to receive Christ.

[mikbone]

3 Nephi 15–17

Introduction

In the time of Moses the children of Israel were stiffnecked and hard of heart. As a result, they lost the privilege of living the fulness of the higher law (see Mosiah 13:29–31). Instead, along with portions of the higher law that they were still allowed to live, the law of Moses (the lesser law) was added to help them come to Christ (see D&C 84:18–27). After His Resurrection, Jesus Christ taught the Nephites that the law of Moses was fulfilled in Him (see 3 Nephi 12:17–18). He taught that “old things had passed away” (3 Nephi 15:2–4) and that He is “the law, and the light” to follow (3 Nephi 15:9).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/book-of-mormon-student-manual/chapter-42-3-nephi-15-17?lang=eng

 

[Vort]

On 4/3/2022 at 5:09 AM, askandanswer said:

How well did the Law of Moses fulfill its primary intention?

The law of Moses cannot have fulfilled, or failed to fulfill, its primary intention. The law of Moses cannot have an intention. It's a law,  like  the law of chastity, or the law of the fast, or for that matter the law of gravity. Like those other laws, it just is.

If instead you ask how well the law of Moses was lived by those to whom it was given, I would venture to guess not very well.  I base this judgment on Jesus' condemnation of hypocrites and other oathbreakers in the New Testament, as well as on my own observations of myself and others to fully live up to the covenants we have been given. 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Vort

[person0]

5 hours ago, Vort said:

The law of Moses cannot have fulfilled, or failed to fulfill, its primary intention.

I think a reasonable assessment of the intent of the question might be to interpret it as, "How well did the Law of Moses fulfill the intention of it's originator (i.e. God)?"  To which (in my opinion) the answer was and is, "Perfectly." 🙂

[askandanswer]

My understanding is that the law of Moses, like most, probably all laws, had a purpose, possibly several purposes, and that one of those purposes was to help the Jews focus on, and prepare for, Christ. This understanding seems to be supported by the quote from @mikbone. If that was a purpose of the Law of Moses, the manner in which many of the Jews responsed to Christ could be evidence in support of the proposition that the law failed to achieve that purpose.  

 

[mikbone]

2 hours ago, askandanswer said:

If that was a purpose of the Law of Moses, the manner in which many of the Jews responsed to Christ could be evidence in support of the proposition that the law failed to achieve that purpose.

But not all of the Jews…

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

see also 2 Nephi 25: 16-18

[Traveler]

On 4/3/2022 at 6:09 AM, askandanswer said:

How well did the Law of Moses fulfill its primary intention?

 

On 4/3/2022 at 7:51 AM, Fether said:

What do you believe the primary intention was?

I believe that all things from G-d come with intent - including a primary intent.

I believe that the intent of the Law of Moses was to provide a benefit to man that can be realized or fulfilled through the proper use of our divine gift of agency.  I am quite sure that no one will become one with G-d or even do much to continue in any effort to become one with G-d without exercising great effort of divine agency to live as best they can or are able, both the spirit and letter of the Law of Moses.  

I started a thread in the topic listing of "General" titled Conspiracies.  Obvious to me, the Law of Moses is a divine conspiracy intended to benefit man.  Unfortunately we are faced with many conspiracies in these Latter-days intended for the detriment of mankind.  Hopefully we can benefit and encourage others to benefit from the Law of Moses - I am quite sure that there are other conspiracies intended to prevent some or all intended (by G-d) the benefits in getting on board with the conspiracy intent of the Law of Moses.

 

The Traveler

[askandanswer]

I think the events referred to in these verses have almost nothing to do with the Law of Moses, and are much more likely to be a result of the events referred to in verse 17. The fact that verse 17 refers to "his people" being in "a lost and fallen state" adds to the impression that "his people" failed to be positively impacted by the Law of Moses in the intended manner. 

[askandanswer]

On 4/5/2022 at 11:55 PM, mikbone said:

But not all of the Jews…

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

see also 2 Nephi 25: 16-18

I think the events referred to in these verses have almost nothing to do with the Law of Moses, and are much more likely to be a result of the events referred to in verse 17. The fact that verse 17 refers to "his people" being in "a lost and fallen state" adds to the impression that "his people" failed to be positively impacted by the Law of Moses in the intended manner. 

See also Mosiah 14:3 and Isaiah 53:3

Edited April 7, 2022 by askandanswer

[Just_A_Guy]

Maintaining a cultural identity over the fifteen hundred years between Moses and Christ—or, thirty-five hundred years between Moses and the present day—is no small accomplishment; and if the bulk of Jews failed (and continue to fail) to see their Messiah in the man Yeshua bin Yusuf, we can at least give credit to the fact that there were (and are) still Jews awaiting a Messiah at all.

Edited April 9, 2022 by Just_A_Guy

[askandanswer]

On 4/9/2022 at 10:31 AM, Just_A_Guy said:

Maintaining a cultural identity over the fifteen hundred years between Moses and Christ—or, thirty-five hundred years between Moses and the present day—is no small accomplishment; and if the bulk of Jews failed (and continue to fail) to see their Messiah in the man Yeshua bin Yusuf, we can at least give credit to the fact that there were (and are) still Jews awaiting a Messiah at all.

I think that the value of any cultural identities that inhibit or restrict or makes it difficult for a person to come unto Christ needs to be questioned and their continuation could be viewed as a detriment rather than an accomplishment. Whatever other good such cultural identities might be achieving may well be overshadowed by any impediment they may create to bringing people to Christ.

I can also see how some might view the fact that many are still waiting for a Messiah who has already been and gone 2,000 years ago as evidence of the failure of the law that was intended to help people prepare for, and recognise, the Messiah when He first came.

[Traveler]

I think if one wants to know why, if or how the Jews are still thinking of or look forward to a Messiah or not - that they ought to talk to a devout Jew.  I tell my friends in other denominations that if they have any questions about the LDS faith - they should learn of us from us.

 

The Traveler

[Just_A_Guy]

14 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I think that the value of any cultural identities that inhibit or restrict or makes it difficult for a person to come unto Christ needs to be questioned and their continuation could be viewed as a detriment rather than an accomplishment. Whatever other good such cultural identities might be achieving may well be overshadowed by any impediment they may create to bringing people to Christ.

I can also see how some might view the fact that many are still waiting for a Messiah who has already been and gone 2,000 years ago as evidence of the failure of the law that was intended to help people prepare for, and recognise, the Messiah when He first came.

That’s fair, though it’s also worth noting that a) (with a very few notable exceptions) no one who met Christ during His lifetime accepted Him except those who had already accepted the Law of Moses; and b) everyone who received the Gospel after Christ’s death, received it through the preaching of someone who was either a Jew or had accepted fundamentally Jewish perceptions of God, the creation, the afterlife, and morality/ethics. 

There are today 10-20 million Jews who reject Christ’s divinity.  Let us assume that the majority of them do that out of a theological attachment to the Law of Moses, rather than for social or political reasons.  You still have over a billion Christians who converted because of a book (the Bible) that came to them, as Nephi says, “out of the mouth of a Jew”.  For every modern Jew for whom the Law of Moses has become a stumbling block, there are literally fifty modern Christians for whom it has proved an instrument of salvation. 

Edited April 13, 2022 by Just_A_Guy

[mordorbund]

Paul, who teaches the Law is the schoolmaster that brings us to Christ, doesn’t seem to recognize the fulfillment in Jesus until after his miraculous conversion. I think a reading that comports with Paul’s experience and subsequent counsel and actions is that the Law was the instructor (for the lay understanding of schoolmaster) or guardian (my interpretation) until Christ came along as the new instructor. He introduced the curriculum or covenant they follow now.

Jacob 4 informs us of the Nephite perspective that the Law of Moses was given with the intent to point their souls to God and Christ. With due respect to the future Paul, Jacob seems to place it in the personhood of Christ, referencing the name of Jesus directly. However, even he seems to recognize that this is hermetic knowledge because he wants his posterity to know that he and his people knew of Christ before His coming. If this is the plain purpose of the Law, then why does the obvious need to be stated? I rather suspect that this personhood of Christ in Jesus was recognized as a mystery among the larger Jewish population but well-known among the Nephites.

For those that like to split hairs, Jacob says the intent is to point souls to “Christ” (or God, depending on how you read a pronoun) so he may be talking a bit more generally that the purpose is to instruct people sufficiently that they may develop faith unto salvation. In this respect, I rather think that anyone who can prepare for 2 back-to-back sabbatical years also recognizes that God blessed him sufficiently (perhaps even abundantly) and exercises the kind of faith that reconciles him to God.

[Carborendum]

On 4/3/2022 at 7:09 AM, askandanswer said:

How well did the Law of Moses fulfill its primary intention?

It fulfilled it exactly as it was supposed to to the extent it was supposed to.

Your assumption is that since "those in power" failed to recognize the Savior as the Messiah, then the entire system failed.  Not so.

The earth had to be wicked enough to crucify the one perfect person on the earth.  That isn't going to happen if the vast majority of the population are true and faithful.  The Law only needed to provide for a sufficient number of people to carry on the message / doctrine / faith in the Atonement of Jesus Christ.  And it did.  Just look at the legacy today -- even surviving through the dark ages.

Today, we have The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints which is God's Kingdom on Earth.  It is designed to prepare the earth for the Second Coming.   But what percentage of the earth's population is LDS?  And as time goes on, it will be even less than currently.  But it is succeeding by the principle of "salt of the earth".

At some point the earth will be so wicked that it will need a "cleansing".  That doesn't really sound like the vast majority of the earth will be righteous, much less baptized, endowed, sealed Saints.