a limitation on the Atonement?

[askandanswer]

It has been suggested, both in scripture and church teachings, that there is a certain point beyond which it will be difficult, or perhaps even impossible, to repent. This certain point is usually described as being at, or beyond, the day of final judgement. Alma expressed this idea like this, but this is far from being the only place, or the only way, in which it has been expressed.

"therefore I say unto you the time shall come, yea, and it shall be at the last day, that he who is filthy shall remain in his filthiness." (Alma 7:21)

If this idea is true, would that then place a limitation on either the power or accessibility of the atonement? It almost seems like Alma, and others who have expressed this idea are putting an end date beyond which it either cannot be accessed or will be of no effect.

[Fether]

2 hours ago, askandanswer said:

It has been suggested, both in scripture and church teachings, that there is a certain point beyond which it will be difficult, or perhaps even impossible, to repent. This certain point is usually described as being at, or beyond, the day of final judgement. Alma expressed this idea like this, but this is far from being the only place, or the only way, in which it has been expressed.

"therefore I say unto you the time shall come, yea, and it shall be at the last day, that he who is filthy shall remain in his filthiness." (Alma 7:21)

If this idea is true, would that then place a limitation on either the power or accessibility of the atonement? It almost seems like Alma, and others who have expressed this idea are putting an end date beyond which it either cannot be accessed or will be of no effect.

The limitations are placed by us individually. I think after all is said and done, those who do not fully partake on Christ redemption will know in their hearts that they didn’t really want what was offered. If they did, they would have acted differently.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Fether

[scottyg]

1 minute ago, Fether said:

The limitations are placed by us individually. I think after all is said and done, those who do not fully partake on Christ redemption will know in their hearts that they didn’t really want what was offered. If they did, they would have acted differently.

Correct, the limitations are all on our end. This is why the denial of the Holy Ghost is so severe to not warrant forgiveness - the person does not want forgiveness at that point, and they are openly and knowingly rejecting the Son. The atonement cannot save those who do not want salvation. That does not mean it is less "powerful" per se. We are all free to choose.

[Anddenex]

7 hours ago, askandanswer said:

It has been suggested, both in scripture and church teachings, that there is a certain point beyond which it will be difficult, or perhaps even impossible, to repent. This certain point is usually described as being at, or beyond, the day of final judgement. Alma expressed this idea like this, but this is far from being the only place, or the only way, in which it has been expressed.

"therefore I say unto you the time shall come, yea, and it shall be at the last day, that he who is filthy shall remain in his filthiness." (Alma 7:21)

If this idea is true, would that then place a limitation on either the power or accessibility of the atonement? It almost seems like Alma, and others who have expressed this idea are putting an end date beyond which it either cannot be accessed or will be of no effect.

I'm not sure "limitations" is the right word; however, there are bounds set according to the knowledge, mercy, and justice of our creator -- Heavenly Father.  We know from scripture, and modern day prophets, that all are saved -- except for -- the sons of perdition.

The atonement of Jesus Christ covers:

1) Telestial glory

2) Terrestrial glory

3) Celestial glory (and its kingdoms)

We know that only one tier in the Celestial kingdom is able to receive all the Father hath. Our brothers and sisters who will be in a lesser degree of glory are there due to the atonement which continues throughout eternity. This doesn't change. We know there is some form of progression in each kingdom of glory, only possible through the atonement of Jesus Christ. We know that even after judgement we are still accessing the atonement to become perfected like God and his Son well into the eternities (Celestial kingdom). In that sense, the atonement is limitless, there is no bound, for the Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial beings/glories. It continues forever and ever, it is everlasting.

One might say, the only limit, is the sons of perdition, but then again is there a limit on something a person fully rejects? In that sense also, it appears the atonement of Jesus Christ does also have a boundary by which the atonement won't cross or can't, much like the justice and mercy of God -- which can not be robbed. Is it then limited? Is mercy limited? Only as far as it can not rob justice, and justice is limited only as far as it can not rob mercy.

Needless to say, as others shared, its limit (so to speak) is due to our personal choice.

 

[scottyg]

8 hours ago, Anddenex said:

I'm not sure "limitations" is the right word; however, there are bounds set according to the knowledge, mercy, and justice of our creator -- Heavenly Father.  We know from scripture, and modern day prophets, that all are saved -- except for -- the sons of perdition.

The atonement of Jesus Christ covers:

1) Telestial glory

2) Terrestrial glory

3) Celestial glory (and its kingdoms)

We know that only one tier in the Celestial kingdom is able to receive all the Father hath. Our brothers and sisters who will be in a lesser degree of glory are there due to the atonement which continues throughout eternity. This doesn't change. We know there is some form of progression in each kingdom of glory, only possible through the atonement of Jesus Christ. We know that even after judgement we are still accessing the atonement to become perfected like God and his Son well into the eternities (Celestial kingdom). In that sense, the atonement is limitless, there is no bound, for the Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial beings/glories. It continues forever and ever, it is everlasting.

One might say, the only limit, is the sons of perdition, but then again is there a limit on something a person fully rejects? In that sense also, it appears the atonement of Jesus Christ does also have a boundary by which the atonement won't cross or can't, much like the justice and mercy of God -- which can not be robbed. Is it then limited? Is mercy limited? Only as far as it can not rob justice, and justice is limited only as far as it can not rob mercy.

Needless to say, as others shared, its limit (so to speak) is due to our personal choice.

 

I like the word boundary better. The scope or sphere of the atonement can reach everyone; it gave Jesus Christ enough power and capacity to reach and redeem the very vilest of sinners. We however are the ones who choose to access Him. Those who end up in/as perdition openly choose to reject the Son after knowing what He can do for them.

It is important to remember that the Atonement was an act; it is not a thing. The word itself is a verb, not a noun. His atonement was a series of actions, culminating in the last great sacrifice, that gave the Savior full power over physical and spiritual death. He is the resurrection and the life, and He has the ability to reach and redeem anyone who comes to Him. The power is His.

[askandanswer]

7 hours ago, scottyg said:

He is the resurrection and the life, and He has the ability to reach and redeem anyone who comes to Him. The power is His.

So is there repentance and forgiveness after the final judgement?

[scottyg]

5 hours ago, askandanswer said:

So is there repentance and forgiveness after the final judgement?

Well, I think it is called the "final" judgement for a reason. Those who did not keep their first estate do not get a mulligan. I can't imagine those who don't keep their second estate will get one either.

[laronius]

16 hours ago, askandanswer said:

So is there repentance and forgiveness after the final judgement?

Prior to the final judgement everyone but the sons of perdition will be redeemed or saved. It may come after a lengthy stay in hell but to inherit a kingdom of glory it will have to happen. So to that extent any repentance and forgiveness that is going to happen must happen before then. Now what happens to these individuals in the eternities we just don't know. 

[Traveler]

I would like to discuss the concepts in this thread in more detail.  I am not sure if I agree with any posts in this thread - at least not my interpretation of what is being said.  Lets begin with what is classically called "the final judgment.   It is my opinion that this is misunderstood because we tend to think of judgment as something forced upon us - something that is in response to choices and we no longer have any control.   In essence I believe that agency is lost in such interpretations.   I am of the opinion that my views concerning agency are somewhat different.  Perhaps I should say that it appears to me that many have an incomplete view of agency.

As much as we talk about "agency" I am not sure that we are capable of determining much through agency during our mortal probation.  I am not willing to say this life reflects agency or even comes close to it.  This is why I believe we all can repent and be forgiven of all our sins committed during our mortal probation.  Here is a simple question that represents my thinking:  Did any individual exercise their agency if it is possible for them to "change their mind"?  What was the true and real expressions of one's agency?  Would it be the first exercise of such agency or the second or some succeeding expression?  With such thinking noting could ever be resolved.  In contrast, we are told in modern revelation that agency is the light and intelligence to make manifest that which was from the beginning. 

It is also my understanding that the "sons of perdition" are those that act contrary to the perfect light of truth with the full knowledge of it.

I do not believe one exercises agency if they are beguiled at any level.  I believe we can only exercise agency with full knowledge of all consequences.  I do not believe such knowledge is possible in morality - this is why I believe when most come to their senses that they will repent.  However, I speculate that many will discover under the full light of truth that they do not want or desire to become one with G-d and what is a G-d.  I have discovered that there are many good people that do not want to be a G-d as they understand the person and character of G-d to be.  As I listen to their understanding of the attributes of G-d - I do not want to end up like that either. 

I cannot speak for anyone else but for me the more I learn about G-d (even from what is coming through science) the more I realize how ignorant I am concerning such things.  If I were to pass from mortality this day - I am not ready for a "Final Judgment" in any way shape or form and I think it is most likely that as I am exposed to greater light and truth - much (most?) of my thinking and behaviors will change accordingly.  I live by faith with but few drops of knowledge accumulated in my life long bucket of what I think I am. 

For all of you that have figured out all this - I would like to talk the more to you to discovered how you have come to such absolute understanding.  I will say with as much certainty as I am currently capable - there is nothing I have learned or discovered in my life long search for truth and light that has convinced me that there is any religion or scientific knowledge that demonstrates that there is anything to better prepare us for what is to come in either this life or the next than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  I am so convinced that I am willing to put all my eggs of hope, trust and understanding in this one basket.  I am willing to discuss and point or principle with anyone.  And with all my uncertainty - I am certain there is nothing better - or at least nothing I have encountered.  With no intention to down play anyone else - I have discovered that I have encountered more than most.  If there is any point in this post that is a question to anyone or anyone that thinks that they have a better understanding - I would not hesitate to openly and calmly (without malice) discuss anything on your mind - I am that certain.  And if I can discover even the slightest particle of truth from anyone and everyone (and I believe that something can be learned from everyone as per Moroni chapter 10) I hope you share it - but I have discovered that often I am not bright enough to see the genus in others.  Please be patient. 

 

The Traveler

 

[Anddenex]

On 4/29/2022 at 9:43 AM, Traveler said:

I do not believe one exercises agency if they are beguiled at any level. 

I'm just going to point this one thing out, which is clearly and plainly taught in scripture:

1) The serpent "beguiled" Eve.

2) Eve made a choice and had agency

From this it is easy to recognize the above statement is inaccurate. Eve is clearly known to have had agency, and she was beguiled by the adversary to partake of the fruit of the tree. We can have agency, and we can exercise agency even if we are beguiled at any level.

EDIT:

We can also clearly see, which is plainly taught in scripture the following, "Wherefore, beware lest ye are deceived; and that ye may not be deceived ^aseek ye earnestly the best gifts, always remembering for what they are given;"

That even with our agency and the exercise thereof, we can be deceived if we ourselves do not exercise our agency (there is the kicker) to learn and seek the best gifts. Deception is a synonym to beguile.

Edited May 1, 2022 by Anddenex

[Traveler]

5 hours ago, Anddenex said:

I'm just going to point this one thing out, which is clearly and plainly taught in scripture:

1) The serpent "beguiled" Eve.

2) Eve made a choice and had agency

From this it is easy to recognize the above statement is inaccurate. Eve is clearly known to have had agency, and she was beguiled by the adversary to partake of the fruit of the tree. We can have agency, and we can exercise agency even if we are beguiled at any level.

EDIT:

We can also clearly see, which is plainly taught in scripture the following, "Wherefore, beware lest ye are deceived; and that ye may not be deceived ^aseek ye earnestly the best gifts, always remembering for what they are given;"

That even with our agency and the exercise thereof, we can be deceived if we ourselves do not exercise our agency (there is the kicker) to learn and seek the best gifts. Deception is a synonym to beguile.

I believe you have opened the door to a rather long and deep subject.  It begins with Lucifer and his opposition to agency which was the single point for the "War" in heaven in our pre-existence.   Through modern revelation we learn that Eve discovered that it is better to pass through sorrow that we might learn the good from the evil.  It seem possible that the events of what we call the Eden epoch were previously planned and the results already determined and chosen.

I have learned through a life long profession that testing is not so much to determine failure or success as it is to determine what needs further preparation before a system is ready for full online operation.  The particular term we are given in revelation is "Agency".  Agency has a very different connotation than will or "free will".  As an agent we represent or take upon us responsibility beyond ourselves.   From the beginning it appears to me that we become either agents of light and truth or we become agents of darkness and lies.  In short we either follow the light, as presented to us through G-d or we follow the darkness and presented to us through Satan.  Those that follow G-d will exercise their agency to become free and liberated in a resurrection of distinguished glory according to the laws by which G-d and his kingdoms are established.  Those that follow Satan no longer have agency but are subject to Satan and darkness.  It is my understanding that we exercised our agency in the full light and understanding that was given us in the pre-existence in the presents of G-d and that in this life we are fallen (blinded) that we might experience the good from the evil.

I am told that it is possible to lose our agency - but I have been unable to determine how that can be only from what can occur in this mortal life.   If you have insights or thought concerning the plan of salvation - I am open to your insights.  It seems to me that it is only in the physical mortal life that we are subject to being beguiled (or deceived). 

 

The Traveler

[Anddenex]

7 hours ago, Traveler said:

I am told that it is possible to lose our agency

I'm not sure "lose" is the most correct word; however, it does fit the connotation behind it. In light of being agents unto ourselves we are informed that we can be "acted upon." In our judicial system, when someone breaks a law and is caught the law "acts upon" them. When a law acts upon us our agency is "lost" to a degree, as we are now "acted upon" and lose the choice to act unless we want further recourse of the law. If the breaking of the law is severe enough, the law "acts upon" the individual and places that individual in prison. Our agency is now delimited.

We now have a fixed set of choices we can make. We are in essence, no longer free, as we are now acted upon. If we can be "acted upon" then to some degree our agency is delimited, or lost. This is what makes our Father in Heaven fully free, an agent unto himself. There is nothing that acts upon him. He breaks no law. He creates laws according to known principles and truths -- his higher laws and ways we do not yet comprehend.

7 hours ago, Traveler said:

It is my understanding that we exercised our agency in the full light and understanding that was given us in the pre-existence in the presents of G-d and that in this life we are fallen (blinded) that we might experience the good from the evil.

We share the same understanding here, otherwise Satan would not have become a Son of Perdition nor his followers.

7 hours ago, Traveler said:

It seem possible that the events of what we call the Eden epoch were previously planned and the results already determined and chosen.

This is an idea that we will probably agree to disagree with regards to "determined" and "chosen" as I don't fully comprehend how you are implying these words. As to my level of understanding, and the connotation of these words I do not believe this.

As to "The Plan" plan of Heavenly Father. Yes, there was a plan. The garden of Eden was part of that plan; however, the outcome and decision by Eve could have been different, which then would have made the decision from Adam different also.

I am currently in understanding, that Eve could have waited and spoke with Adam. They could have sat in counsel together regarding the knowledge Eve felt she gained in her conversation with Satan. Adam and Eve were already waiting for further light and knowledge from Heavenly Father before they sinned/transgressed. We do not know, nor has it been revealed what the Lord would have taught Adam and Eve. I'm convinced the "Fall" could have happened another way. I openly admit I could be wrong as I haven't received any spiritual witness either way. But it seems to me there were other choices, and where there are other choices there are also other outcomes.

7 hours ago, Traveler said:

Agency has a very different connotation than will or "free will". 

We agree.

Edited May 2, 2022 by Anddenex

[Traveler]

14 hours ago, Anddenex said:

I'm not sure "lose" is the most correct word; however, it does fit the connotation behind it. In light of being agents unto ourselves we are informed that we can be "acted upon." In our judicial system, when someone breaks a law and is caught the law "acts upon" them. When a law acts upon us our agency is "lost" to a degree, as we are now "acted upon" and lose the choice to act unless we want further recourse of the law. If the breaking of the law is severe enough, the law "acts upon" the individual and places that individual in prison. Our agency is now delimited.

We now have a fixed set of choices we can make. We are in essence, no longer free, as we are now acted upon. If we can be "acted upon" then to some degree our agency is delimited, or lost. This is what makes our Father in Heaven fully free, an agent unto himself. There is nothing that acts upon him. He breaks no law. He creates laws according to known principles and truths -- his higher laws and ways we do not yet comprehend.

We share the same understanding here, otherwise Satan would not have become a Son of Perdition nor his followers.

This is an idea that we will probably agree to disagree with regards to "determined" and "chosen" as I don't fully comprehend how you are implying these words. As to my level of understanding, and the connotation of these words I do not believe this.

As to "The Plan" plan of Heavenly Father. Yes, there was a plan. The garden of Eden was part of that plan; however, the outcome and decision by Eve could have been different, which then would have made the decision from Adam different also.

I am currently in understanding, that Eve could have waited and spoke with Adam. They could have sat in counsel together regarding the knowledge Eve felt she gained in her conversation with Satan. Adam and Eve were already waiting for further light and knowledge from Heavenly Father before they sinned/transgressed. We do not know, nor has it been revealed what the Lord would have taught Adam and Eve. I'm convinced the "Fall" could have happened another way. I openly admit I could be wrong as I haven't received any spiritual witness either way. But it seems to me there were other choices, and where there are other choices there are also other outcomes.

We agree.

There is a lot here to discuss - I am glad that we agree on many key issues.

From your first paragraph.  As I understand agency - it is not a power we hold within ourselves - even the references to being an agent unto oneself.  As I understand agency - it is a gift that is granted to us and is subject to conditions.  My father supported us (his family) through the employment of being an insurance agent.  As an insurance agent my father had the power to legally bind the resources of those he represented with his clients.    Even if my father bound the wrong kind of clients the resources were legally bound.  However, if he was determined to have overstepped his agency he could be deprived of it.  This is what I refer to losing it.  It means that we are deprived of it and become the sole backer of our own actions.

All this makes sense to me in so many ways.  Lets start with what we know about covenants with G-d.  When there is a binding covenant we become agents of that binding and as such we are "One".  We see another example in scripture when a man and a woman covenant with G-d to become one in marriage.  Such a covenant is not just a oneness between a man and a woman but a oneness with G-d as well.  The ancient Hebrew term for this oneness is "ehad".  This term is a plural term, meaning the uniting of many (more than two) - the singular ancient Hebrew term for our modern English that most of us understand as one is "yhead".

Thus agency may include our free will but our free will is something we have within ourselves and we alone control.   Thus our free will only becomes an element of agency when we subject our will to the will of G-d and become one (ehad) with G-d and all that is included in the laws, covenants and ordinances of the kingdom of G-d. 

So I see our coming to earth as mortal beings, not as a structure of our free will but our agency (covenant) with G-d.  This means that we are in league (bound by covenant) with G-d for all our sins during this probation.  This allows G-d to utilize all divine resources (Christ) to redeem us from our sins and not redeeming us in our sins.  

I would put forward one other idea.  That is the for knowledge of G-d.  This means G-d knows what will happen before it happens.  I have pondered this and have logically determined that if there is anything that is possible that G-d did not know before it happened that such an exceptions and means that anything can happen that he would not know in advance.  The logical conclusion is that G-d really does not know what will happen before it happens.  There is a lot of augmenting and discussion about our free will - that if our will is known in advance that we do not have a free will.  I am of the opinion that knowledge of our will does not preclude or nullify our will in any way shape or form and that such discussions are ridiculous and meaningless.   I admit this is my opinion but I have not encountered anything logical that even comes close to changeling the logic of individual will and knowledge. 

I want to thank you for engaging me - in particular your engaging with disagreement.  I like to think I value a thoughtful disagreement far more than a nonchalant and hardly thought out agreement.  I welcome any and all logically based disagreement and look forward to criticism.

 

The Traveler

Edited May 2, 2022 by Traveler

[JohnsonJones]

On 4/26/2022 at 1:59 PM, askandanswer said:

It has been suggested, both in scripture and church teachings, that there is a certain point beyond which it will be difficult, or perhaps even impossible, to repent. This certain point is usually described as being at, or beyond, the day of final judgement. Alma expressed this idea like this, but this is far from being the only place, or the only way, in which it has been expressed.

"therefore I say unto you the time shall come, yea, and it shall be at the last day, that he who is filthy shall remain in his filthiness." (Alma 7:21)

If this idea is true, would that then place a limitation on either the power or accessibility of the atonement? It almost seems like Alma, and others who have expressed this idea are putting an end date beyond which it either cannot be accessed or will be of no effect.

Going back to the OP, I think it depends on what you mean by limitation. 

It is eternal and endless in what it covers, in so much as it is over our temporary test.  Once the test is over, the atonement still applies in what it covered, but does not rectify our eternal choices.

To put it into an example.

I am taking a math test.  The Professor has said that we can come up for help at any time and, if we need it, he will guide us through the question, the process for answering it, all the way up until we have the correct answer for the question.  We just have to ask and he will help us, teaching us on the spot if we need to, in order to get the right answer.  WE can do this as long as we take the test.  Even if the time goes over, he will still be there to answer our questions, though because it is after the time the test ended, for some who already turned in their test, returning to a specific question may be a little tougher.

Once the test is over though and then graded, he will NOT go back and help us get the right answers.  AT that point, the test is over, the grades rewarded.  However, any help he gave while the test was ongoing, will not be counted against us and the answers that are correct, even if gotten by him guiding us through them or even, eventually just giving to us, stand as correct answers.  That cannot change.

In that same light, we choose to accept the atonement or not.  WE choose to accept the gospel's guiding principles or not.  At the end, once we get a Telestial, Terrestrial, or Celestial body, then we have those immortal and unchanging bodies.  The atonement still stands and so all sins and transgressions are cleaned away, but our eternal reward stays. 

[askandanswer]

12 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Once the test is over though and then graded, he will NOT go back and help us get the right answers.  AT that point, the test is over, the grades rewarded.  However, any help he gave while the test was ongoing, will not be counted against us and the answers that are correct, even if gotten by him guiding us through them or even, eventually just giving to us, stand as correct answers.  That cannot change.

So once the test is graded, if there are still things we don't know, even though the professor is still sitting nearby in his chair, his knowledge and wisdom can no longer benefit us, is that how it works? Its all good up until a certain time, and after that its no good in terms of helping us learn and increase in understanding? 

[JohnsonJones]

On 5/4/2022 at 3:19 AM, askandanswer said:

So once the test is graded, if there are still things we don't know, even though the professor is still sitting nearby in his chair, his knowledge and wisdom can no longer benefit us, is that how it works? Its all good up until a certain time, and after that its no good in terms of helping us learn and increase in understanding? 

 

Sure, he'll still help us understand the stuff, but the test is over.  If you flunked the test because you simply wouldn't ask him for help...is that REALLY his fault. 

To be honest though, if a student would NOT ask to be given help and even the answers during the test itself, how likely are they to ask when there is nothing at risk?

Maybe the professor would lift them to a higher grade if asked, but in my experience, once a test and grading is over, very few students come back to ask for actual knowledge or help.  Maybe one or two who flunked will beg for their grade to be raised (but not to actually LEARN the material or help to learn it, just to have their grade raised for no reason other than they want it to be higher), but other than that, no one really ever comes back after everything is said and done.

I have office hours and the number of students that come in is abysmally small.  Right before the end of the semester you start to have some come in who are concerned about their grade, but before that very few come in, and after the grades are given out, no one comes in to ask for more information generally.