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Just_A_Guy

Irreversible Damage

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It is so nice to see stuff like this starting to survive the "scream and report and deplatform and cancel" crowd.  It's been a rough few years.

Reading the one star reviews, a common theme is "the author isn't trans and isn't an expert, and nobody should write books on experiences they haven't lived".   So, just to add another voice to the topic, consider checking out Cat Cattinson.  She's a former trans, expert, with lived experience.   

https://www.youtube.com/c/CatCattinson/videos?view=0&sort=dd&flow=grid

If you're serious about wanting to hear what she has to say, follow her on Youtube and TikTok.  She is in a constant state of getting accounts mass-reported and banned, and appealing the bans. 

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I am so distraught at what's going on with this stuff. It's SO terrible and having a daughter now...it just breaks me heart. 

Up to a year or so ago it hadn't hit too close to home, and I hadn't even realized how much of an epidemic it is, even in happy valley Utah, even in the Church, even everywhere.  Now I have extended family (a close cousin's daughter) who had decided they're Trans. And I've heard of example after example from friends and family in their wards, schools, etc. 

We have to protect our children from this! 

Thanks @Just_A_Guy for the resource on it. We need even more. The insanity is beyond. Beyond beyond. And it's going to get worse. 

Elon Musks purchase of Twitter is helpful. It also won't be enough.

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I’ve been a DCFS lawyer for about five years now.  I got my first case involving a kid who happened to be transgender, about nine months ago.  Since then I’ve gotten five more.  (They aren’t under DCFS supervision because they’re transgender; they came in for other issues.)  

Something very, very odd is occurring.  Shrier points out a lot of interesting common threads among the cases she discusses.  She basically looks at it as a “craze”—a continuation of the same phenomena that gave us the Salem witch trials, recovered memory of sexual abuse, etc; exacerbated by social media.

 

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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49 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

exacerbated by social media

This makes it a much bigger deal, of course. 'Exacerbated' is, perhaps, not strong enough a word.

Edit: I might add also, that the social media "trendiness/craze" of it is false. Meaning....it feels like the whole world has gone crazy. But they haven't. It's just that anyone who isn't crazy is censored on social media. It's a serious part of the problem. (Which is why I brought up Elon Musk earlier.)

Edited by The Folk Prophet

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In related news, a boy in my ward has been coming to sacrament meeting in a dress and makeup for a few months.  This individual sang with the Young Women in our Easter Sacrament meeting program.  I don't know the family enough to know what's going on.  Seems like the two possibilities is this is either a transgender individual, or this is some boy who has been pulled in to the social media exacerbation.  I don't have enough information to form an opinion on the matter, other than I know the 2nd great commandment is "love thy neighbor as thyself".  

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This has infiltrated and infected our ward.  2 female youth who have identified as trans (one has fully socially transitioned), 1 who identifies as pansexual, 1 as bisexual, my daughter (for a time) was introduced to it by another young woman.  Our kids are homeschooled and video websites with suggested/automatic content are heavily restricted in our home, so nearly 100% of their exposure to this phenomenon has come through associations at Church.

Thankfully, intervention helped our daughter and at least one of the other youth to escape and align themselves on the path (for now).  Our daughter was being led down the path that could eventually have led to a trans identity (all seemingly stemming from a desire for social acceptance).  One of her so called 'friends' in the ward even helped come up with a new name for her that we quickly, lovingly and successfully shut down (thankfully).

We had three special counsels with ward and stake leaders (incl. youth & primary presidency) to foster ideas for how to help.  Admittedly, I am generally impatient and to me it seems that progress is slow.

Our ward has many woke individuals who publicly trumpet lgbtq affirmation (among other things), to such an extent that a member of the Bishopric, while teaching the plan of salvation, mentioned our eternal identity as sons and daughters of God and then followed up by saying that he "didn't mean to get into that", specifically referencing gender identity.  I don't blame the individual for the type of anxious thoughts and feelings that led him to say that; instead I question how we allowed such circumstances to develop in our ward in the first place.

Anyway, it seems this stuff is all over these days.  We have been seriously considering ward shopping to seek out an environment that is more safe for our children.  This coming Sunday we will be visiting another ward just for a break and to see what we feel from the Spirit.  Thus far, somehow, through all this, we have not yet felt a strong spiritual impression to flee (although a few others have already done so).

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I haven't heard of the book.  But I've seen it happening far too often.

A good friend in our ward has a daughter who has decided she is a lesbian.  And her best friends are transgenders (girls thinking they are boys).

The interesting thing is that in the past, this has been about 99% males thinking they are females.  But the trend of girls thinking they are boys is really weird.If any phenomenon jumps from 1 in a million to 1 in 100 in just a few years (not even a full generation) people should start asking why.  But liberals simply argue that "society" has been suppressing women too long.

Uh-huh.

Suppression was NEVER that strong.  1 in 1000 to 1 in 100, sure.  That could be.  But 1 in a million?  Our society is NOT that oppressive.  People would just move to California and no one would be oppressing someone from coming out.  In fact, they'd encourage it.

Disclaimer: I'm using those numbers for illustration purposes.  But I do believe they are accurate as an order of magnitude.

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Well, it has been 79 years since this was written, I think every generation since then has forgotten more, passed along less, and added new stuff.

Quote

If— BY RUDYARD KIPLING

If you can keep your head when all about you   
    Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,   

If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
    But make allowance for their doubting too;   

If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
    Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,

Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
    And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:


If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;   
    If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;   

If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
    And treat those two impostors just the same;   

If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
    Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,

Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
    And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:


If you can make one heap of all your winnings
    And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,

And lose, and start again at your beginnings
    And never breathe a word about your loss;

If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
    To serve your turn long after they are gone,   

And so hold on when there is nothing in you
    Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’


If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,   
    Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,

If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
    If all men count with you, but none too much;

If you can fill the unforgiving minute
    With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,   

Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,   
    And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!

 

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14 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I’ve been a DCFS lawyer for about five years now.  I got my first case involving a kid who happened to be transgender, about nine months ago.  Since then I’ve gotten five more.  (They aren’t under DCFS supervision because they’re transgender; they came in for other issues.)  

Something very, very odd is occurring.  Shrier points out a lot of interesting common threads among the cases she discusses.  She basically looks at it as a “craze”—a continuation of the same phenomena that gave us the Salem witch trials, recovered memory of sexual abuse, etc; exacerbated by social media.

 

I agree...something odd is occurring. It is crazy how quickly it has taken hold of so many kids, and how this concept is so alluring to them. It makes no sense to me, but makes me more a believer in how fast the Nephite civilization fell in just 4 generations after Christ's appearance.

Our ward also has 1 YM and 1 YW struggling with this. The prophet wasn't lying when he said the adversary was quadrupling his efforts. My young kids do not have, and will not be given access to social media by me or my wife. Hopefully frequent trips to the temple when they are of age will help as well.

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On 4/29/2022 at 12:17 PM, scottyg said:

I agree...something odd is occurring. It is crazy how quickly it has taken hold of so many kids, and how this concept is so alluring to them. It makes no sense to me, but makes me more a believer in how fast the Nephite civilization fell in just 4 generations after Christ's appearance.

Our ward also has 1 YM and 1 YW struggling with this. The prophet wasn't lying when he said the adversary was quadrupling his efforts. My young kids do not have, and will not be given access to social media by me or my wife. Hopefully frequent trips to the temple when they are of age will help as well.

I applaud your efforts.

Your mentioning the YM and YW in your ward reminded me of something.

My 13 yo daughter has a friend who is a boy.  They are such good friends, some of the kids at school tease them about being a couple.  They're not.  Neither has any romantic interest in the other.  And recently, I've begun seeing some signs that this boy is being influenced by the movement.  Part of the problem is that their parents are liberals.  Yes, that may not be what some liberals on this board want to hear.  But at least in this case, it is true.  They wholly buy into the movement.  They're perfectly woke.  

It would be one thing if he truly had gender dysphoria in the classic sense.  But instead, he suffers from lack of facts and lack of truth.  And that emptiness is what is confusing him, not because he actually has gender dysphoria.

They think they're "allowing" him to find his own way.  But all the time they're saying, "if you think you're a girl, that is perfectly ok.  Do you want to go dress shopping?"

This is not allowing.  This is encouraging.  If they simply took the time to explain a boy has a p... and a girl has a v... then that would be the end of it.  If the child still "feels" something else, then they're going against both science and religion.  And the family would have to figure that out.  But 99% of the cases of this generation are only because children aren't learning how to discern truth from error.  They're allowed to believe anything anyone tells them not matter how harmful it may be.

This movement is literally killing our children.  And the band went marching on.

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22 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I applaud your efforts.

Your mentioning the YM and YW in your ward reminded me of something.

My 13 yo daughter has a friend who is a boy.  They are such good friends, some of the kids at school tease them about being a couple.  They're not.  Neither has any romantic interest in the other.  And recently, I've begun seeing some signs that this boy is being influenced by the movement.  Part of the problem is that their parents are liberals.  Yes, that may not be what some liberals on this board want to hear.  But at least in this case, it is true.  They wholly buy into the movement.  They're perfectly woke.  

It would be one thing if he truly had gender dysphoria in the classic sense.  But instead, he suffers from lack of facts and lack of truth.  And that emptiness is what is confusing him, not because he actually has gender dysphoria.

They think they're "allowing" him to find his own way.  But all the time they're saying, "if you think you're a girl, that is perfectly ok.  Do you want to go dress shopping?"

This is not allowing.  This is encouraging.  If they simply took the time to explain a boy has a p... and a girl has a v... then that would be the end of it.  If the child still "feels" something else, then they're going against both science and religion.  And the family would have to figure that out.  But 99% of the cases of this generation are only because children aren't learning how to discern truth from error.  They're allowed to believe anything anyone tells them not matter how harmful it may be.

This movement is literally killing our children.  And the band went marching on.

Like the children of Israel, many today are chasing after false idols. Political movements and philosophy are more attractive than scripture and Prophets. Some even lie to themselves that a just god would accept their evil actions, and that those actions will somehow bring lasting happiness.

It has become the norm for many LDS parents to say that because they love their children they will "support" them in their decisions. This includes leaving the church because their enlightened (woke) young adult children don't agree with those 15 old white guys. A couple in my ward no longer attend church because their 19 year old son came out as gay, and he doesn't want them to attend anymore because it hurts his feelings...so they left.

Whether it is my sons choosing to not serve a mission, a child getting into drugs, lgbtqxyz, or any number of the stupid ideals now pushed as "equitable and just", I will always, always love my children...but that does not mean I have to support their wrong choices. If they are doing something wrong or stupid I will most certainly tell them.

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Shrier, I should note, focuses particularly on the transgender craze as it pertains to young girls.  She has no problem with homosexuality, or even with gender transition by adults with legitimate diagnoses of gender dysphoria following evidence-based therapies.  In fact, she suggests that many “transgender” girls are actually lesbians who have internalized some measure of “homophobia”/anti-lesbian prejudice from their surroundings (she notes that in the LGBTQ hierarchy, lesbian institutions/associations/bars/etc are under continual assault by transgender advocates).  And she is sympathetic to adult transgender folks who just want to be left alone.

But some of her major points are:

—Until the early 21st century, people diagnosed with gender dysphoria were 90+% male and diagnoses were usually based on collateral contacts (including parents) saying “yeah, we’ve known something was different about him since he was 3”.  Now, it’s like 65+% female, and it’s sudden onset, with parents (even progressive/LGBTQ-friendly ones) (and a significant majority of transgender folk grew up in white, highly educated, affluent, progressive homes) saying “there was never any indication of this until she started hanging out with these people and following these YouTube stars, and then she came out to us a couple of months later”.

—A thriving online community of transgender activists openly coaches kids about how to lie about their symptoms to get treatment, an increasing number of therapists don’t use any diagnostic criteria other than “she says she has gender dysphoria, so she does”, and the “watch and wait” therapeutic approach has largely been supplanted by openly affirmative regimens that, deliberately or not, cement questioning kids into a transgender identity.

—Educational systems at every level are bending over backwards to expose students to this, including kindergartners; and in some cases to begin providing hormone therapy—all behind the parents’ backs.

—Hormone therapies are being granted (frankly, peddled) with nothing approaching “informed consent”.  Trans influencers and even health care professionals are telling people that it’s easy to de-transition (it’s not), that puberty blockers are safe (they’re not), and that hormone treatments and surgical interventions are fully reversible (ABSOLUTELY not).  (Her description of the procedure and risks inherent to phalloplasty was particularly gruesome.)

Shrier says that the parents she talked to who were most successful in fending off trans ideation among their very young daughters before things spun out of control, were those who were willing to take the drastic step of pulling up stakes and moving the entire family.

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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On 4/28/2022 at 8:19 PM, Just_A_Guy said:

I’ve been a DCFS lawyer for about five years now.  I got my first case involving a kid who happened to be transgender, about nine months ago.  Since then I’ve gotten five more.  (They aren’t under DCFS supervision because they’re transgender; they came in for other issues.)  

Something very, very odd is occurring.  Shrier points out a lot of interesting common threads among the cases she discusses.  She basically looks at it as a “craze”—a continuation of the same phenomena that gave us the Salem witch trials, recovered memory of sexual abuse, etc; exacerbated by social media.

 

WOW.

It sounds like a tough time to be in law in your field right now.  That is....just wow.  Sounds tough. 

I've recently been involved with some items on the legal front, but nothing like dealing with items like that. 

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I won't sugar coat things: I think a lot of the statements being made here are inconsistent with what the Church is teaching and encouraging with regards to sexual orientation and gender identity. Some key highlights:

  • Sexual orientation and gender identity are different issues: "However, same-sex attraction and gender dysphoria are very different....From a psychological and ministerial perspective, the two are different." (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/topics/gay/leaders?lang=eng)
  • Gay and transgender/gender queer individuals are welcome and wanted in the Church: "I now speak directly to Church members who experience same-sex attraction or identify as gay, lesbian, or bisexual. We want you to know we love you. You are welcome. We want you to be part of our congregations. You have great talents and abilities to offer God’s kingdom on earth, and we recognize the many valuable contributions you make." (Whitney L. Clayton, https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/topics/gay/individuals?lang=eng)
  • At the same time, I will acknowledge the existence of individuals in the Church who wish to perpetuate teachings inconsistent with Christ's and the Church's teachings. I see this from "liberal" members in their desire to redefine the Law of Chastity, but I'm also seeing it "conservative" members who want to purge gay and transgender members from their congregations. Neither are appropriate. From time to time, we all need to sit down and reevaluate if the things we believe are things that the Lord is teachings us, or if they are things we are trying to the the Lord.

I don't know that I have the mental or emotional energy to dive really deep into this with y'all (this is a topic that's currently creating tension within my ward, and that's taking up a lot of my emotional space). But I will ask you all to take a step back, breathe, and then get to know more about the families that are going through this. Try to understand what their kids' view points and motivations are.  And most importantly, listen to them. Don't say anything. Just listen. 

Consider, especially, that the Church's positioning on these issues has shifted dramatically.  Two years ago, entering a same sex marriage was a condition that required excommunication.  Now, it's a condition that "may require a membership council" but does not necessitate revocation of membership. Regarding gender transitions, the Church is open to allowing transgender members to attend classes or use restrooms according to their chosen identity (on a case-by-case basis, See General Handbook 38.6.23).

Please, don't flee your wards. You might think you're helping or saving your children.  But you're hurting the body of Christ. We can do better.

 

Edit: It wouldn't hurt any of us to review these resources right now, probably multiple times.  There's a lot to take in.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/topics/transgender?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/topics/gay?lang=eng

Edited by MarginOfError

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3 hours ago, MarginOfError said:

I think a lot of the statements being made here are inconsistent with what the Church is teaching and encouraging with regards to sexual orientation and gender identity.

Would you care to specify which statements are inconsistent with what the Church is teaching? I mean other than the obvious "ward shopping", which is a single statement by a single individual.

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On 4/28/2022 at 9:45 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

I am so distraught at what's going on with this stuff. It's SO terrible and having a daughter now...it just breaks me heart. 

Up to a year or so ago it hadn't hit too close to home, and I hadn't even realized how much of an epidemic it is, even in happy valley Utah, even in the Church, even everywhere.  Now I have extended family (a close cousin's daughter) who had decided they're Trans. And I've heard of example after example from friends and family in their wards, schools, etc. 

We have to protect our children from this! 

Thanks @Just_A_Guy for the resource on it. We need even more. The insanity is beyond. Beyond beyond. And it's going to get worse. 

Elon Musks purchase of Twitter is helpful. It also won't be enough.

If, as is being suggested by the Church in the links I  provided, we are going to accept and welcome transgender and gay members into our congregations, you will not be able to protect children from it.  They will encounter it, and we need to engage this issue, not try to cut it off.

On 4/29/2022 at 5:05 AM, person0 said:

This has infiltrated and infected our ward.  2 female youth who have identified as trans (one has fully socially transitioned), 1 who identifies as pansexual, 1 as bisexual, my daughter (for a time) was introduced to it by another young woman.  Our kids are homeschooled and video websites with suggested/automatic content are heavily restricted in our home, so nearly 100% of their exposure to this phenomenon has come through associations at Church.

Thankfully, intervention helped our daughter and at least one of the other youth to escape and align themselves on the path (for now).  Our daughter was being led down the path that could eventually have led to a trans identity (all seemingly stemming from a desire for social acceptance).  One of her so called 'friends' in the ward even helped come up with a new name for her that we quickly, lovingly and successfully shut down (thankfully).

"It is always important to acknowledge the reality of another person’s feelings. We shouldn’t deny that someone feels a certain way. We take the reality where it is, and we go from there." (found in both the gay and transgender topics). This isn't a disease. And quite frankly, the Church has plenty of statements out indicating the gay and transgender members can retain membership, hold callings, and pursue their spiritual development beside every other member of our congregations. Being gay or transgender is not, de facto, off the path.

On 4/30/2022 at 9:54 PM, Carborendum said:

This is not allowing.  This is encouraging.  If they simply took the time to explain a boy has a p... and a girl has a v... then that would be the end of it.  If the child still "feels" something else, then they're going against both science and religion.  And the family would have to figure that out.  But 99% of the cases of this generation are only because children aren't learning how to discern truth from error.  They're allowed to believe anything anyone tells them not matter how harmful it may be.

This movement is literally killing our children.  And the band went marching on.

This confuses biological sex with gender identity. The General Handbook identifies biological sex and gender identity as two distinct concepts. (38.6.23).  It is not killing our children in any meaningful spiritual sense. The kids are perfectly capable of developing spiritual capacity while also expressing and/or exploring these identities. 

On 4/30/2022 at 10:31 PM, scottyg said:

Like the children of Israel, many today are chasing after false idols. Political movements and philosophy are more attractive than scripture and Prophets. Some even lie to themselves that a just god would accept their evil actions, and that those actions will somehow bring lasting happiness.

This cuts both ways, frankly. For instance, there are people in my ward who are upset that a young man who came out as gay earlier this year is still allowed to bless the sacrament and attend the temple. "But he came out! PUBLICLY!  There are consequences!" Alas, that is not what the Church expects, requires, or teaches. 

 

 

None of this is to say that youth should be allowed to run hog-wild after every new idea. But validating their thoughts and feelings, and letting them have a leading role in the definition of their identity isn't such a bad thing. In fact, for many of them, it opens a huge level of trust and communication with spiritual leaders that can help them develop their spirituality. 

"People can make their own choices about how to identify. There are active, temple recommend–holding Church members who comply with the law of chastity and identify themselves as gay, lesbian, or bisexual. There are active Church members who experience same-sex attraction and never choose to identify themselves using a label. Our primary identity will always be as a child of God." (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/topics/gay/leaders?lang=eng) And that identity is the identity we need to see--and act toward--first.

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3 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

If, as is being suggested by the Church in the links I  provided, we are going to accept and welcome transgender and gay members into our congregations, you will not be able to protect children from it.  They will encounter it, and we need to engage this issue, not try to cut it off.

Maybe it would be more accurate to say we can't "fully" protect children from it. But even then, that isn't really true to what I meant either. Kids simply seeing a man wearing a dress isn't necessarily damaging in and of itself if the proper responses, teachings and trainings are being done consistently. What I mean when I say we have to protect our children is, in part, that we need to be talking about this with them. Teaching them of the dangers. Teaching them of the corruption. Teaching them of the evil ideologies behind it all. Of course that teaching needs to include Christlike love, humility, patience, longsuffering, kindness, etc.

It also means being exceedingly careful with kids and social media, serious consideration of home schooling, monitoring of other entertainment (#cancelDisney), etc. In particular it means affirming young girls of the awesomeness of their being female.

I'm seriously not following why you bolded "The insanity is beyond. Beyond beyond." There's nothing contrary to what the church, scriptures, prophesy, or anything teaches in that comment. The insanity is beyond.

22 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

This confuses biological sex with gender identity. The General Handbook identifies biological sex and gender identity as two distinct concepts. (38.6.23).  It is not killing our children in any meaningful spiritual sense. The kids are perfectly capable of developing spiritual capacity while also expressing and/or exploring these identities. 

Your understanding of this is a bit off to me.

The church recognizes that biological sex is biological. But it also declares, unapologetically, that gender is eternal. The fact that it recognizes that some people 'identify' as a different gender is not contrary to @Carborendum's comments at all.

45 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:
On 4/30/2022 at 8:31 PM, scottyg said:

Like the children of Israel, many today are chasing after false idols. Political movements and philosophy are more attractive than scripture and Prophets. Some even lie to themselves that a just god would accept their evil actions, and that those actions will somehow bring lasting happiness.

This cuts both ways, frankly. For instance, there are people in my ward who are upset that a young man who came out as gay earlier this year is still allowed to bless the sacrament and attend the temple. "But he came out! PUBLICLY!  There are consequences!" Alas, that is not what the Church expects, requires, or teaches. 

I do not follow how your response is even related to what @scottyg said.

46 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

But validating their thoughts and feelings

I will validate valid things.

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1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Maybe it would be more accurate to say we can't "fully" protect children from it. But even then, that isn't really true to what I meant either. Kids simply seeing a man wearing a dress isn't necessarily damaging in and of itself if the proper responses, teachings and trainings are being done consistently. What I mean when I say we have to protect our children is, in part, that we need to be talking about this with them. Teaching them of the dangers. Teaching them of the corruption. Teaching them of the evil ideologies behind it all. Of course that teaching needs to include Christlike love, humility, patience, longsuffering, kindness, etc.

It also means being exceedingly careful with kids and social media, serious consideration of home schooling, monitoring of other entertainment (#cancelDisney), etc. In particular it means affirming young girls of the awesomeness of their being female.

I fully agree that we need to be talking with kids about it.  But the key is talking with them about it.  Not talking at them about it. A major part of that is listening to them. Honestly, I don't get the sense from what you are saying that you are particularly interested in the listening. It feels like you'd rather tell them how it is. Asking a gender queer what they think it means to be male or female will get a lot of different responses. You might be surprised how many of those responses have to do with social norms and stereotypes that they don't want to be bound to. You can talk about dangers and corruptions and ideologies all you want--if they don't believe that you care about and understand them, they won't listen. Instead, they'll very likely bottle up their feelings until they're outside of your influence.

Quote

I'm seriously not following why you bolded "The insanity is beyond. Beyond beyond." There's nothing contrary to what the church, scriptures, prophesy, or anything teaches in that comment. The insanity is beyond.

I bolded it because it is so dismissive. "I don't understand, and I don't agree. Therefore it is insane." Again, you can't make any meaningful impact in this realm without first building a personal connection. 

Quote

Your understanding of this is a bit off to me.

The church recognizes that biological sex is biological. But it also declares, unapologetically, that gender is eternal. The fact that it recognizes that some people 'identify' as a different gender is not contrary to @Carborendum's comments at all.

"Gender is an essential characteristic of Heavenly Father’s plan of happiness. The intended meaning of gender in the family proclamation is biological sex at birth. Some people experience feelings of incongruence between their biological sex and their gender identity." (Handbook 38.6.23)

By substitution, the Family Proclamation is equivalently read "Biological sex at birth is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose."

So, yes, males have a penis and females have a vagina. But that is their biological sex, and not their gender identity. It's worth considering that Identity, as a concept, is an interface for social interaction. It's entirely possible to have a penis and want to wear skirts. So what does any one person's gender identity mean to them? If we dismiss it all at "boys have a penis and girls have a vagina," then you'll never know, because they won't trust you enough to share with you their most personal feelings.  

Quote

I do not follow how your response is even related to what @scottyg said.

Taking a paraphrase, just as "woke-ism" is proposed as a false god by scottyg, I'm willing to propose hard line exclusionary stances as a false god. It's clear when you read the materials I linked to that the Church wants gay and transgender members to be welcomed, embraced, and included. There is space in the middle, and in my observation, it isn't being used very much.

Quote

I will validate valid things.

This is the heart of the problem. Read the whole sentence again. "But validating their thoughts and feelings, and letting them have a leading role in the definition of their identity isn't such a bad thing. In fact, for many of them, it opens a huge level of trust and communication with spiritual leaders that can help them develop their spirituality." 

But nope, never mind. The Folk Prophet is a better judge of when a person's feelings are valid and when they are not? Just ask him how you should feel and identify--that will make everything all better.  

Here's a better idea: “One thing that is always important is to recognize the feelings of a person, that they are real. That they are authentic. That we don’t deny that someone feels a certain way. We take the reality where it is, and we go from there. And we want people to feel that they have a home here." (D. Todd Christopherson)

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1 minute ago, MarginOfError said:

But the key is talking with them about it.  Not talking at them about it.

Why? Serious question. I don't dialog with my two-year-old granddaughter about whether Grandpa loves her. I instruct her on the matter. That's because I'm the adult. Why would I willingly abdicate that position when talking to my 6-, 8-, 10-, or 12-year-old grandchild about sexual orientation or gender identity, arguably far more important topics?

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1 minute ago, Vort said:

Why? Serious question. I don't dialog with my two-year-old granddaughter about whether Grandpa loves her. I instruct her on the matter. That's because I'm the adult. Why would I willingly abdicate that position when talking to my 6-, 8-, 10-, or 12-year-old grandchild about sexual orientation or gender identity, arguably far more important topics?

Let me reframe a bit and state that when I say "kids*," I'm generally referring to teenagers. I might be more direct with younger kids. But certainly as they age, they should have more talking time. Why should they?  Because there's a very real risk that a teenager will choose to hide their feelings from you if you don't. Instead, they may just tell you what they think you want to hear until they get to a place in life where you have less influence over them. And then they go off and do what they want anyway.

Talking with them is much more likely to build the kind of trust that keeps communication open and maintains your role as a persuasive influence in their life**.

 

* working in a scouting program with both boys and girls, I've taken to saying "kids." In church settings, "youth" is probably more appropriate.

** Not saying that every discussion will always end in perfect agreement. But I don't think they have to.  You just want them to keep to conversational door open.

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8 hours ago, MarginOfError said:

Please, don't flee your wards. You might think you're helping or saving your children.  But you're hurting the body of Christ. We can do better.

 

I agree with much of what you say, but let me push back a smidge on this part:

Why?

Have we not just seen the entire church suspend its meetings for something like a year due to a highly infectious physical disease whose childhood mortality rate was nevertheless lower than .01%?  And even now, on the back side of the pandemic underlying that decision, do we not sympathize with and even applaud the hyper-careful folk who proclaim that their peculiar circumstances mean that they still must stay away?

A big part of the gay rights argument used to be “it’s not the flu; you can’t catch it from others”  But with what Shrier calls “rapid-onset gender dysphoria”—apparently, you can catch it.  Or at least, teenagers (especially girls) can.  Over 65% of teens who announced rapid-onset transgenderism had increased their social media use and online time in the immediate run-up to coming out.  Almost 70% belonged to a peer group in which at least one friend had already come out.  In 60% of cases coming out resulted in a popularity boost for the child.  Nearly 70% of children who experience childhood gender dysphoria, and do not receive affirmation therapy or socially transition, eventually grow out of it.

If what Shrier says is true, and many kids that actually don’t have clinical gender dysphoria are nevertheless being pressured to declare themselves “transgender” and engage in life-changing  hormone treatments and surgeries, and if (as some participants here have suggested) it turns out that a significant part of this pressure has been happening at church—

—What then?

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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2 hours ago, MarginOfError said:

I bolded it because it is so dismissive.

It is the opposite of dismissive.

But I do feel moderately dismissive of your (rather rude) implication that it's dismissive. So....

2 hours ago, MarginOfError said:

This is the heart of the problem.

I don't think you and I are going to agree on the heart of the problem.

 

2 hours ago, MarginOfError said:

The Folk Prophet is a better judge of when a person's feelings are valid and when they are not?

You're being rude. So I'm done.

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In my younger years, it would be necessary to bring up topics with my kids so they would be prepared to deal with them as the grew up.  It was incumbent upon my wife and me to determine what topics were appropriate at what age.

But today we're not so fortunate.  Inappropriate topics are forced upon our children when they are far too young to really comprehend the issues involved, much less, come to a well thought out conclusion about them.

So, we're forced to have age inappropriate conversations with our children because society is forcing the issues upon them.

Recently my 10 year old was part of the conversation about the family friend who recently committed suicide.  When we discussed the transgender thing, he said that he wished he could "unknow" that.

I don't blame him.  Why does is it so controversial to believe we shouldn't talk about certain topics until they are older?”"

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